International Active US Air Force member self-immolates outside Israel Embassy in Washington

Ichibanner said:
Tell us how mentally sound anyone is if they've rationalized that their own suicide is the solution to other people's problems? Few remember his name; he accomplished nothing beyond destroying the lives of those who loved him.

You're posting on here because you haven't ended your life in an attempt to draw attention to a cause you strongly believe in. I hope you don't view this poor deluded individual as some Martyr that set an example you'd follow.

PM me and we can chat if you're seriously thinking of following his example. Your life has value and you can accomplish so much more by seeking help and living a productive life than by cutting it short. Sane and fairly healthy individuals realize that.
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*cough* buddhist monks *cough*
 
So I didn't check the News last night.....Did Israel hear about this nut job turning himself into a Roasted Hot Dog and decide to end this conflict that's been going on forever?
 
I saw the actual video of this guy burning himself

Although he was crazy, you have to give him credit.. he lasted upright for a helluva lot longer than I would have.

He died stupidly.. but at least it was with conviction!
 
terrapin said:
Last night you made an indefensible claim. You claimed that anybody who changed their mind based on this martyrs actions would be committing a logical fallacy. That's an ignorant and ridiculous statement and you failed to back it up because it's impossible to do so and then you pretended victory. I just want everyone who's reading to know that you actually believe that its a logical fallacy to be motivated to change one's position because on this man's actions.

There is a difference between what the disciples did and what this man did but it's not so cut and dry as you think. I said that giving up one's life for a cause is deeply revered in Christianity. Jesus and a number of the disciples had it within their power easily to not be put to death, but they chose death. That's not so far far off from what this man may have done if his motivations are accurate based on what he said.

And while you may not have based your opinions on partisan motivations, it is clear that many here have. In fact, based on the spurious arguments against martyrdom that are being put forth, it's clear that most people have never thought about it once in their lives until this happened. That's very clear to those of us who've given hours of thought to this as a basic spiritual practice.

As to how his family will turn out after growing up? You are the one who's profoundly naive and has insinuated a certain outcome. I haven't. I've been involved in deep spiritual practice for over 30 years and I've known literally hundreds and hundreds of individuals who've experienced deep tragedy and for the most part most of them come out better on the other end. If you don't know that basic fact about life, how can you evaluate what might happen to this man's children and wife?

And remember once again in all of our arguments past and present you are arguing for the certainty of your position and I'm arguing for the possibility of mine and trying to keep the door open for many others. For you, it is a closed book and a closed mind and for me it is an open book and an open mind. That's why you can't understand me because you can't relate.

I think it's clear who's really thinking here and who is just putting out their own personal opinions.
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OK but it's not a belief it's just a fact. It is an appeal to emotion. You just refuse to educate yourself. It doesn't matter how many people you include in this. If any of the 7 billion people on Earth rethink their position simply based on his action, they're falling for the fallacy. It appears that you are not a man who values logic is all, which I guess is your cross to bear.

Now we are moving on to the 4th fallacy you've committed in these arguments. This is false equivocation. The disciples are revered because they held to their convictions on pain of death. They did not kill themselves. If they had they would not be revered as it goes against the Christian faith. Christians do not believe in killing yourself for any reason. Surely that's crossed your mind in the many hours of thought you put into this. Here's some further reading for you:
en.wikipedia.org

False equivalence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

As for his family, you are admitting through your silence in here that you have not ever dealt with it. A normal tragedy is not the same as suicides. Especially not when a young person commits suicide. But regardless of that I call bullshit that these hundreds of people came out better on the other end. What you mean is there is a silver lining in the loss; that there is at least some positive that comes from it. Almost ever single one of those people would be better off as a whole without the loss.

You keep painting yourself as open minded but from the outset you had an opinion and you constantly speak to everyone from an authoritative positions and generalize and dismiss dissenting opinions. Not just to me and @SmilinDesperado but to like, basically everyone. Me and him have very different opinions on the conflict as a whole and you painted us with the same brush stroke. Im sure that he finds that as amusing as I do as while you were doing it we were literally arguing in the other thread. You can't imagine how people could invest time into thinking about something and not reach your conclusion You do that in the face of established logic even.
 
Lucas1980 said:
So I didn't check the News last night.....Did Israel hear about this nut job turning himself into a Roasted Hot Dog and decide to end this conflict that's been going on forever?
Click to expand...
Hot dog hot dog hot diggity dog
 
terrapin said:
There are some really strong similarities though. While the disciples and Jesus did not commit suicide, it is very very close to suicide when you consider that each of them could have easily gotten out of dying.

Each of them went intentionally towards their death in service of a cause and each of them could have preserved their lives instead of dying for that cause.

There isn't very much difference between that and this man being the cause of his own death in service of a principal.

No greater love does a man have than this that he would lay down his life for his friends.
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Interesting viewpoint I will say.
 
terrapin said:
There are some really strong similarities though. While the disciples and Jesus did not commit suicide, it is very very close to suicide when you consider that each of them could have easily gotten out of dying.

Each of them went intentionally towards their death in service of a cause and each of them could have preserved their lives instead of dying for that cause.

There isn't very much difference between that and this man being the cause of his own death in service of a principal.

No greater love does a man have than this that he would lay down his life for his friends.
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This is a huge stretch. I don't know why you feel the need to make such a huge leap in logic to try and make statements to paint your outlandish claims in a better light.

You continue to hold this bizarre view of this guy . . . almost like some deep admiration and infatuation.

It's really quite disturbing.
 
SmilinDesperado said:
This is your brain on blind partisanship. Where did I defend the current order? You didn't even read the post you quoted.
I specifically said I was politically aligned with this guy. You can check my post history.
Being against the treatment of Palestinians at the hands of US backed Israel does not mean you have to support/can't criticize stupid plans of action, even when they're well meaning.
Are we really at the point where saying "Setting yourself on fire in protest is not the best move" is a bad take?
I can say it with my full chest that there are 1,000 other more right ways to resist than self-immolation. How is that not a sincere criticism?


He was a 25 year old adult that has been in the military for a few years, in university at the same time, and was seemingly politically active, not a child. Unless he was mentally impaired, "I was blinded by the promise of America so i had to set myself on fire because i felt betrayed" isn't much of an excuse, and it was a BAD plan.
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Blayt7hh said:
OK but it's not a belief it's just a fact. It is an appeal to emotion. You just refuse to educate yourself. It doesn't matter how many people you include in this. If any of the 7 billion people on Earth rethink their position simply based on his action, they're falling for the fallacy. It appears that you are not a man who values logic is all, which I guess is your cross to bear.

Now we are moving on to the 4th fallacy you've committed in these arguments. This is false equivocation. The disciples are revered because they held to their convictions on pain of death. They did not kill themselves. If they had they would not be revered as it goes against the Christian faith. Christians do not believe in killing yourself for any reason. Surely that's crossed your mind in the many hours of thought you put into this. Here's some further reading for you:
en.wikipedia.org

False equivalence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

As for his family, you are admitting through your silence in here that you have not ever dealt with it. A normal tragedy is not the same as suicides. Especially not when a young person commits suicide. But regardless of that I call bullshit that these hundreds of people came out better on the other end. What you mean is there is a silver lining in the loss; that there is at least some positive that comes from it. Almost ever single one of those people would be better off as a whole without the loss.

You keep painting yourself as open minded but from the outset you had an opinion and you constantly speak to everyone from an authoritative positions and generalize and dismiss dissenting opinions. Not just to me and @SmilinDesperado but to like, basically everyone. Me and him have very different opinions on the conflict as a whole and you painted us with the same brush stroke. Im sure that he finds that as amusing as I do as while you were doing it we were literally arguing in the other thread. You can't imagine how people could invest time into thinking about something and not reach your conclusion You do that in the face of established logic even.
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It's not an appeal to emotion. You just don't know how to apply that principal to situations outside of the definition you can quote.. Really man, no educated person on the planet will agree with you on this. You're absolutely being a fool here. Human beings are motivated emotionally all the time to reevaluate information. It's part of how we work. It's not a logical fallacy to reevaluate information because of having an emotional change.... Fallacy you were pointing out is when a person changes their minds only because of emotional reasons, but that has nothing to do with my position. You're just too uneducated, dim, unimaginative to realize that. The fact that you are still holding on to this ridiculous position is astounding to me.

I'm sorry that you are so uneducated that you can make such a profound error in your thinking and be sure that you are right.


If you want to try to force me into a direct equivalence between the disciples and jesus and what this man did you are just being dishonest. But there are some strong similarities as the disciples and jesus all could have easily gotten out of their deaths. They gave their lives as a sacrifice for a greater ideal. That is very close to what this man did.


I'm not sure what to say about your take on the silver lining of his death... It is true that God can and does turn all things to good, but I just can't agree that everyone's lives would certainly be better if he were still alive. That's just another one of those statements among many that you make with certainty that you can't know the outcome of. You seem to think it's okay to assume everybody's motives, everybody's intentions and all the effects everything will have on all people. That certainty in the face of uncertainty seems to be a defining characteristic of your position and it's really where our conflict lies. I almost never argue for the necessity of my position. You lie if you say I do. If you read carefully, you will see that, but I think you're missing it because you can't conceive of what it's like to not argue for the necessity of your positions. I suspect you do not have that state of consciousness available to you and so you cannot see it when it's right in front of you.

If you pay attention to the arguments I've made in this thread and many others, you'll find that for the most part, what I'm arguing for is the ambiguity of situations and the many possible outcomes. I'm almost always arguing against the certainty that people have when they claim opinion as fact and make assumptions without evidence. That was even true in the Bigfoot thread where you guys made a mockery of logic and reason. But none of you could conceive of my position because you don't have that gear.

As to smiling desperado. I've already admitted to that honest mistake publicly in this thread... So holding me to that and saying I paint you both with the same broad stroke is dishonest.
 
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spamking said:
This is a huge stretch. I don't know why you feel the need to make such a huge leap in logic to try and make statements to paint your outlandish claims in a better light.

You continue to hold this bizarre view of this guy . . . almost like some deep admiration and infatuation.

It's really quite disturbing.
Click to expand...
This is an outright lie and I'm not sure why you would be such a liar.

I don't even have a definite position of this man. The entire crux of my argument is that you can't condemn him with certainty because you don't know his motives and you can't say his actions will do no good because you just not smart enough to know the outcome has actions will have on all of humanity. Are you put here to judge?

I'm arguing for the ambiguity of the situation and the possibilities. I've even said multiple times it's possible he was mentally ill but we just don't know that.

I don't mind if you criticize my positions, but maybe you should know them before you do so?

As to the Jesus disciples question, it's not a stretch to say there is a strong similarity. There are strong similarities. They gave their lives on purpose. Some of them left behind families in service of a cause. Each of them could have easily avoided their death, but the message they carried meant certain death. I don't know how much difference it really makes who did the killing...

You might call it suicide, but I don't think it quite is suicide. At least not in the sense that Christianity condemns suicide. "IF" The man did what he did out of great selfless love it would not be fair to characterize that as suicide without a ton of caveats.

And when you think of why suicide is condemned not just in Christianity but elsewhere. It's because it stems from a kind of despair and devaluation of the gift of life and that kind of despair can spread and destroy other people's lives along with the life that was lost.

But if this man did what he did out of great love for the Palestinians that's not an act of despair. It's something different. It's an act of love and hope. And it can spread love and hope.
 
terrapin said:
It's not an appeal to emotion. You just don't know how to apply that principal to situations outside of the definition you can quote.. Really man, no educated person on the planet will agree with you on this. You're absolutely being a fool here. Human beings are motivated emotionally all the time to reevaluate information. It's part of how we work. It's not a logical fallacy to reevaluate information because of having an emotional change.... Fallacy you were pointing out is when a person changes their minds only because of emotional reasons, but that has nothing to do with my position. You're just too uneducated, dim, unimaginative to realize that. The fact that you are still holding on to this ridiculous position is astounding to me.

I'm sorry that you are so uneducated that you can make such a profound error in your thinking and be sure that you are right.


If you want to try to force me into a direct equivalence between the disciples and jesus and what this man did you are just being dishonest. But there are some strong similarities as the disciples and jesus all could have easily gotten out of their deaths. They gave their lives as a sacrifice for a greater ideal. That is very close to what this man did.


I'm not sure what to say about your take on the silver lining of his death... It is true that God can and does turn all things to good, but I just can't agree that everyone's lives would certainly be better if he were still alive. That's just another one of those statements among many that you make with certainty that you can't know the outcome of. You seem to think it's okay to assume everybody's motives, everybody's intentions and all the effects everything will have on all people. That certainty in the face of uncertainty seems to be a defining characteristic of your position and it's really where our conflict lies. I almost never argue for the necessity of my position. You lie if you say I do. If you read carefully, you will see that, but I think you're missing it because you can't conceive of what it's like to not argue for the necessity of your positions. I suspect you do not have that state of consciousness available to you and so you cannot see it when it's right in front of you.

If you pay attention to the arguments I've made in this thread and many others, you'll find that for the most part, what I'm arguing for is the ambiguity of situations and the many possible outcomes. I'm almost always arguing against the certainty that people have when they claim opinion as fact and make assumptions without evidence. That was even true in the Bigfoot thread where you guys made a mockery of logic and reason. But none of you could conceive of my position because you don't have that gear.

As to smiling desperado. I've already admitted to that honest mistake publicly in this thread... So holding me to that and saying I paint you both with the same broad stroke is dishonest.
Click to expand...
It’s not dishonest, you literally did that. You admitted it and owned it but you did it. I have no doubt you will do it in the future too. It’s a tactic for dismissing arguments you don’t like. Which puts it arguably into a fifth logical fallacy for you. Everyone’s favorite on the internet. Can you guess which one?

This is the best and last thing I can do for you. If he had shouted “The Earth is flat!” While he burned to death, would you reconsider your position on whether the Earth was flat or not?

terrapin said:
If you want to try to force me into a direct equivalence between the disciples and jesus and what this man did you are just being dishonest
Click to expand...

No. You’re being dishonest because you’re choosing to ignore the core problem Christians have with his act. Hence the fallacy.
 
spamking said:
This is a huge stretch. I don't know why you feel the need to make such a huge leap in logic to try and make statements to paint your outlandish claims in a better light.

You continue to hold this bizarre view of this guy . . . almost like some deep admiration and infatuation.

It's really quite disturbing.
Click to expand...

There's several prominent far left leaders praising this act. Radicals love to sacrifice their followers for their sick visions.


81744917-13127485-image-a-34_1708981567788.jpg
 
Blayt7hh said:
It’s not dishonest, you literally did that. You admitted it and owned it but you did it. I have no doubt you will do it in the future too. It’s a tactic for dismissing arguments you don’t like. Which puts it arguably into a fifth logical fallacy for you. Everyone’s favorite on the internet. Can you guess which one?

This is the best and last thing I can do for you. If he had shouted “The Earth is flat!” While he burned to death, would you reconsider your position on whether the Earth was flat or not?
Click to expand...

He's taking a weird tact...

"He might be crazy, but if he isn't crazy, then he's a hero to be admired."

Dude - No one, literally no one who's in their right mind would set themselves on fire.
 
Blayt7hh said:
It’s not dishonest, you literally did that. You admitted it and owned it but you did it. I have no doubt you will do it in the future too. It’s a tactic for dismissing arguments you don’t like. Which puts it arguably into a fifth logical fallacy for you. Everyone’s favorite on the internet. Can you guess which one?

This is the best and last thing I can do for you. If he had shouted “The Earth is flat!” While he burned to death, would you reconsider your position on whether the Earth was flat or not?



No. You’re being dishonest because you’re choosing to ignore the core problem Christians have with his act. Hence the fallacy.
Click to expand...


If you really feel that way about me, then I suggest you just don't respond to me anymore.
 
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