After 25 years watching NBA again - where to start?

[Sweater of AV]

Isn’t that the point of the thread? To me, saying Jordan would dominate today is the same as saying Rice would dominate today. The athletes are bigger but similarly skilled today. Rice was absolutely remarkable but so was Moss, Calvin Johnson, Julio Jones. MJ averaged 35 points a game shooting 25 shots a game. Durant averaged 32 on 21 shots a game. Pretty similar… so then, the argument is Jordan’s era was a tougher era. While play in paint was more physical, the athletes, especially on the perimeter were smaller. Think KD couldn’t have put 55 on Dan Majerle in a Finals game?… please. MJ needed 37 shots and 18 free throws to get there. MJ, the best player of all time. But todays players are comparable. Let alone some of the idiots that suggest MJ would average 40 in todays NBA.

It's 50, not 40, son.

MJ playing against this festival of soft cans would be hilarious.

 

[Frank Kain]

It's 50, not 40, son.

MJ playing against this festival of soft cans would be hilarious.

Keep talking…you sounded stupid at first…and keep making it worse. What else would MJ do today that he wouldn’t have done in the 90s ?

 

[Sweater of AV]

Keep talking…you sounded stupid at first…and keep making it worse. What else would MJ do today that he wouldn’t have done in the 90s ?

Settle down, Frank Can. You already embarrassed yourself enough in the other thread and proved you have no idea what you're babbling about. Lol at pretending like you watched back then.

Let me guess, Jokic reminds you of Boris Becker? Lol.

 

[Frank Kain]

Settle down, Frank Can. You already embarrassed yourself enough in the other thread and proved you have no idea what you're babbling about. Lol at pretending like you watched back then.

Let me guess, Jokic reminds you of Boris Becker? Lol.

Jokic reminds me of a healthy Bill Walton.

 

[iwannabeadored]

Expect to be watching a bunch of egotistical ball hogs that play zero defense. Not to mention expansion has watered down the league so you have ten stacked teams and the rest are trash.. coupled with the fact players act like GMs and pick and choose the teams that get stacked.

Look no further that all of the 60+ point games you've seen in the past week by some of these guys to see how defense is a thing of the past. Most players are softer than baby shit now and the referring doesn't help.

I’m a massive 90s and 2000s era basketball fan. I stopped watching 2010s and started back up around 2020. The league is more competitive than any time. Go look at the west right now and it’s insane.

 

[iwannabeadored]

Jokic reminds me of a healthy Bill Walton.

Nope.


Jokic has a crazy post game and can shoot the 3. The guy had a stretch where he missed like 5 shots in 4 games.

Besides his unreal passing the dude is bringing the ball up the court like a guard.


There is zero players like him before. Hakeem is my favorite all time but jokic might have him as far as offense goes

 

[Cartiac]

Oh, I was there. He was on the foul line relentlessly, and this even after he changed game to shooting more from the outside. And again, the stats don’t lie. Look up how many shots and free throws he shot. Illegal defense was a penalty to force 1 on 1 play…don’t hear that called anymore. The game certainly isn’t called the same but it wasn’t like the refs didn’t protect MJ. He was officiated differently than every other player. And it isn’t like his games aren’t on anymore. Go watch some of those old games. It isn’t the brawl ball it is often made out to be.

I work in analytics, people often try to use stats to cover lies or just ignorance. Jordan's free throw numbers aren't anything crazy, not sure how that is even a negative toward him anyway.

We also know you repeating this point about the illegal defense rules is also irrelevant because we watched Kobe Bryant. Kobe was about as close to a mirror image of MJ as you could possibly get, same size, same style, same coaches, same offense and he excelled against zone defenses.

The entire game changed trying to adapt to Jordan's greatness.

Only losers blame refs.

 

[Frank Kain]

I work in analytics, people often try to use stats to cover lies or just ignorance. Jordan's free throw numbers aren't anything crazy, not sure how that is even a negative toward him anyway.

We also know you repeating this point about the illegal defense rules is also irrelevant because we watched Kobe Bryant. Kobe was about as close to a mirror image of MJ as you could possibly get, same size, same style, same coaches, same offense and he excelled against zone defenses.

The entire game changed trying to adapt to Jordan's greatness.

Only losers blame refs.

No problem, lots to unpack here…. Jordan was absolutely officiated differently than other players in his era. Numbers reflect that. The primary reasons are comparing 1, peer to peer, and 2, understanding the team game around them.

So, often, people will compare # of free throws per game directly. Harden vs Jordan is often a comparison, since Harden shoots a comparable # of FG attempts. 2 big flaws in that argument - position and # of possessions. Jordan shot more than Harden did (most years), in fewer possessions. Pace of play was slower in 90s than other era - fewer team shots. Also, Harden plays a ‘point-shooting’ guard.. very different than Jordan. He handles the ball more, yet shoots nearly as much in more possessions.

Peer to peer is another big one. Compare FTs per game with Jordan vs Drexler who played in the same time frame…compare their # of FGs and FTs per game…it’s striking how many more FTs Jordan would take. Comparing Jordan to Kobe is also disingenuous because of the competition. Kobe was competing against Vince Carter, T-Mac, Lebron… substantially bigger, more athletic perimeter players than Jordan did.

Keep in mind, Jordan was an inspiration for Kobe, T-Mac… I am not disputing Jordan is the best and most influential player in NBA history…but have some perspective. Some of you guys are old men yelling at the clouds.

 

[Frank Kain]

Nope.


Jokic has a crazy post game and can shoot the 3. The guy had a stretch where he missed like 5 shots in 4 games.

Besides his unreal passing the dude is bringing the ball up the court like a guard.


There is zero players like him before. Hakeem is my favorite all time but jokic might have him as far as offense goes

Well, the team game is dramatically different. Walton was a unicorn in his time, just as Jokic is now. Walton was a slightly longer player but like Jokic.. an excellent passer.. he mostly did all his passing in the post, where Jokic is far more pick and rolls and shoots from the outside more. The 3 pointer wasn’t even a thing when Walton was in his prime (came in 1979). Look at Walton’s statline in the 1977 series against Kareem and the Lakers… very Jokic-like…

In a 4–0 series sweep of the Los Angeles Lakers in the 1977 Western Conference finals, Walton averaged 19.3 points, 14.8 rebounds, 5.8 assists, and 2.3 blocks playing against fellow UCLA alum Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.[52][53]

 

[Croaker]

I work in analytics, people often try to use stats to cover lies or just ignorance. Jordan's free throw numbers aren't anything crazy, not sure how that is even a negative toward him anyway.

We also know you repeating this point about the illegal defense rules is also irrelevant because we watched Kobe Bryant. Kobe was about as close to a mirror image of MJ as you could possibly get, same size, same style, same coaches, same offense and he excelled against zone defenses.

The entire game changed trying to adapt to Jordan's greatness.

Only losers blame refs.

The more apt adaption to modern NBA for Jordan is DeRozan.

 

[iwannabeadored]

Well, the team game is dramatically different. Walton was a unicorn in his time, just as Jokic is now. Walton was a slightly longer player but like Jokic.. an excellent passer.. he mostly did all his passing in the post, where Jokic is far more pick and rolls and shoots from the outside more. The 3 pointer wasn’t even a thing when Walton was in his prime (came in 1979). Look at Walton’s statline in the 1977 series against Kareem and the Lakers… very Jokic-like…

In a 4–0 series sweep of the Los Angeles Lakers in the 1977 Western Conference finals, Walton averaged 19.3 points, 14.8 rebounds, 5.8 assists, and 2.3 blocks playing against fellow UCLA alum Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.[52][53]

I’ve watched bill. He passed well But not like jokic. Jokic is a true point center with the offense running threough him. Plus his post moves are far superior to bills.


Bill is like a model T compared to a Ferrari if we compare. Jokic is definitely a unique player like Steph was unique. Like Shaq or Jordan

 

[Frank Kain]

I’ve watched bill. He passed well But not like jokic. Jokic is a true point center with the offense running threough him. Plus his post moves are far superior to bills.


Bill is like a model T compared to a Ferrari if we compare. Jokic is definitely a unique player like Steph was unique. Like Shaq or Jordan

Bill was also a better defender and rebounder. Hardly a Model T. Again, his prime was before the 3 point line. Why get farther from the basket in his day? This is coming from a Jokic fan, and a guy that grew up in Denver..and loves seeing the Nuggets win regularly now. Walton would feel right at home in today’s game. And I’m not talking about the washed/Celtic Walton… Blazers-Bill Walton. Not saying he’s better but very comparable in many ways.

 

[iwannabeadored]

Bill was also a better defender and rebounder. Hardly a Model T. Again, his prime was before the 3 point line. Why get farther from the basket in his day? This is coming from a Jokic fan, and a guy that grew up in Denver..and loves seeing the Nuggets win regularly now. Walton would feel right at home in today’s game. And I’m not talking about the washed/Celtic Walton… Blazers-Bill Walton. Not saying he’s better but very comparable in many ways.

Bill was an ok defender. He has better stats as far as blocked shots, but jokic is underrated on D

 

[Frank Kain]

Bill was an ok defender. He has better stats as far as blocked shots, but jokic is underrated on D

But… be realistic, Walton was a better defender/rim protector. He faced some hall-of-fame centers too. Not saying Sabonis, Sengun, Davis, and Embiid, aren’t great players but he isn’t playing against Kareem, Wilt, Bob Lanier, Moses Malone, etc..

 

[SKYNET]

There is zero players like Jokic before

Dude is unreal. And watch out for Holmgren. Might be the worst matchup at Center in the whole league for Joker

 

[SKYNET]

The more apt adaption to modern NBA for Jordan is DeRozan.

No one attacks the rim like Jordan. Roz is missing the speed and flight. Maybe AE x Roz = Jordan

 

[Sweater of AV]

Compare the intensity, space and defense between today and just 12 years ago.



The NBA today is a glorified all-star game. Players are completely lost out there half the time.

 

[Croaker]

No one attacks the rim like Jordan. Roz is missing the speed and flight. Maybe AE x Roz = Jordan

Ja Morant and Anthony Edwards clear

 

[SKYNET]

So what teams would you recommend to see good and exciting basketball? Who are the top players at the moment?

East
Celtics - Tatum, Brown, Porzingas
Knicks - Brunson, Randle, OG
Bucks - Giannis, Dame, Lopez
Cavs - Mitchell, Garland, Allen
Pacers - Haliburton, Siakam, Turner
6ers - Embiid, Maxey, Harris
Heat - Butler, Bam, Herro
Magic - Banchero, F Wagner

West
Clippers - Kawhi, George, Harden
Nuggets - Joker, Murray, Porter
Wolves - AE, KAT, Gobert
Thunder - Shai, Holmgren, Jalen W
Mavs - Luka, Kyrie, Hardaway
Suns - KD, Booker, Beal
Pelicans - Zion, Ingram, Mccollum
Kings - Sabonis, Fox
Warriors - Curry, Kuminga

Young, elite & unique talent before their prime
Wemby - Spurs
Barnes - Raptors
LaMelo - Hornets
Cade - Pistons
Sengun - Rockets
Ja - Grizzlies
Markkanen - Jazz
Simons - Blazers

 

[iwannabeadored]

But… be realistic, Walton was a better defender/rim protector. He faced some hall-of-fame centers too. Not saying Sabonis, Sengun, Davis, and Embiid, aren’t great players but he isn’t playing against Kareem, Wilt, Bob Lanier, Moses Malone, etc..

Bill plaued prime Kareem and Moses but he missed a lot of those big time big men