Are there any top tier Dutch kickboxers who have successfully incorporated true Muay Thai?

[AbeRudder]

I agree, he opened the thais eyes to the fact that GENERALLY speaking, they were lacking in the hand dept, not utilizing it enough, overlooking it etc. I think he proved that hands can be effective in muay thai as well.

Muay thai is continuing to evolve. What it is today isnt what it was 20 years ago. The sport now seems to be overall more well rounded. I am even seeing some of the thais incorporate some mma style striking moves as well.

This guy is 10 years older than ramon and was on the scene years before him

 

[AbeRudder]

@shincheckin if a thai fought like Dekkers, he would lose aswell

Yeah pretty much. The problem for Dekkers wasn't that he was a puncher, there have been plenty of punchers that have succeeded in thailand. It's that he didn't have a rounded skillset or particularly good fight IQ (by top tier thai standards anyway). There are a number of his fights where he gets stuck on the outside eating round kicks to the arms repeatedly without trading back at all. He also didn't have much strength in the clinch either.

 

[shincheckin]

thats not how it works though, the thais in the stadiums bet amongst themselves, so for every Thai placing a bet on Dekkers opponent they would have to have that bet with a Thai betting on Dekkers, back then there was no where near the amount of foreigners in the stadiums as there are now and the amount of foreigners actually betting on the fights would be minuscule amounts compared to the Thai's betting amongst themselves.

you misread what I said. I never said anything about any foreigners placing bets.

What I am saying is that the thais were more likely to bet on the thai then on the foreinger/dekkers. So Dekkers loosing on a decision, would mean more people made money rather than lost.

 

[shincheckin]

This guy is 10 years older than ramon and was on the scene years before him

its all generally speaking man, ouf course there were/are going to be thais that had good hands. Generally speaking, foreigners have better hands. Generally speaking thais are better kickers/clinchers......"no way not true becuase there is this ONE guy that did this ONE thing this ONE time." Doesnt mean there isnt going to be a foreigner with better kicks or a thai with better hands.

its the equivalent of my argument that generally speaking, the thais were more likely to bet on the thai, rather than the dekkers/foriegner.

Just as most fillipino ppl (generally speaking) were rooting for paquiao rather than mayweather. But you always get the guy that comes out and says no way not true because I know this one filipino guy and he wants mayweather to win. All well and good, and im sure there are many more filipino ppl that did want mayweather to win, but again generally speaking, the filipino community wanted pacquiao, just as the thai community most likely wanted the thai. @anorak

 

[shincheckin]

there is nothing to consider. the fights are on youtube. look them up and see he is talking out of his ass.

we can agree to disagree. The man is a legend and accomplished more in the sport than you and I put together ever will in 2 lifetimes. I dont think he is talking out of his ass at all with anything. The man is certified.

 

[verrix]

seen a superman punch here and there, and a few of those flicky teep type kicks to the face.

Here, superman punches before MMA existed.

8:57

0:47
By "flicky teep type kicks to the face" I assume you specifically mean that uppercut-style kick that MMArs love so much, which is semi-common in old footage but I can't be bothered to spoonfeed you anymore. Why don't you go look for yourself? https://vimeo.com/user50805189

we can agree to disagree. The man is a legend and accomplished more in the sport than you and I put together ever will in 2 lifetimes. I dont think he is talking out of his ass at all with anything. The man is certified.

Again, why don't you just watch the fights, since you obviously haven't? This isn't some unknowable, subjective mystery, you can just watch him lose, fair and square, over and over again. Why does Dekkers' opinion mean more to you than just watching the fights with your own eyes?

 

[UWanaPlayDaGame]

you misread what I said. I never said anything about any foreigners placing bets.

What I am saying is that the thais were more likely to bet on the thai then on the foreinger/dekkers. So Dekkers loosing on a decision, would mean more people made money rather than lost.

he said that for every thai betting against Dekkers, there would have to be a thai betting on Dekkers.

don't mean no offense but it seems that you ate up the youtube-early days Ramon Dekkers story with a spoon. we have Muay Ties and golden era footage available now. that story just didn't hold up.

the worst thing about this fake narrative is that Ramon Dekkers is a true legend just the way he is. he went to Thailand and fought the thais at their own rules. he lost most of the time but who wouldn't? there's no need to make up a fake story about how he was robbed everytime.

 

[shincheckin]

Here, superman punches before MMA existed.

8:57

0:47
By "flicky teep type kicks to the face" I assume you specifically mean that uppercut-style kick that MMArs love so much, which is semi-common in old footage but I can't be bothered to spoonfeed you anymore. Why don't you go look for yourself? https://vimeo.com/user50805189

Again, why don't you just watch the fights, since you obviously haven't? This isn't some unknowable, subjective mystery, you can just watch him lose, fair and square, over and over again. Why does Dekkers' opinion mean more to you than just watching the fights with your own eyes?

How many fights do you have?

 

[Yodsanan]

How many fights do you have?

are you really such a sheep? Have you even watched the fights?

 

[shincheckin]

Here, superman punches before MMA existed.

8:57

0:47
By "flicky teep type kicks to the face" I assume you specifically mean that uppercut-style kick that MMArs love so much, which is semi-common in old footage but I can't be bothered to spoonfeed you anymore. Why don't you go look for yourself? https://vimeo.com/user50805189

Again, why don't you just watch the fights, since you obviously haven't? This isn't some unknowable, subjective mystery, you can just watch him lose, fair and square, over and over again. Why does Dekkers' opinion mean more to you than just watching the fights with your own eyes?

I been watching dekkers since before YouTube existed. K1 fans torrent days

 

[shincheckin]

Keyboard warrior battle over. I'll believe a man with 200 fights before I believe the keyboard warriors with none

 

[Yodsanan]

Keyboard warrior battle over. I'll believe a man with 200 fights before I believe the keyboard warriors with none

Has nothing to do with being a keyboard warrior. it's about understanding the sport you've been watching for years. I'm sure everyone here has nothing but respect for Dekkers, but saying he lost most of his fights which he actually lost is not to far fetched.

not sure why I should put him on a pedestal, especially when he lost to other legends who achieved factually more in the sport than him.

 

[Kanka]

Keyboard warrior battle over. I'll believe a man with 200 fights before I believe the keyboard warriors with none

Dude that is not really an argument, nobody here is acting like a keyboard warrior. There are plenty of fighters with over 200 of fights and who were better than Dekkers who have great respect for dekkers, but still don't think he got robbed like he claimed to be.

 

[shincheckin]

all im saying is that this. I/me/you didnt fight at lumpinee stadium in the 90's, therefore we cant speak on it, cause we didnt do it. Dekkers did however....hes been there done that. Hes certified,qualified,legit, to speak on it, cause he did it.

Therefore I will take his word over someone that has watched it on youtube.

I do believe that in the early days, him being one of the first foreigners to go over and fight and beat alot of their top level guys, that national pride got in the way, and if it came to a decision, the decision would go to the thai.

also everyone always wants to be an expert. I say mma tactics are being used in muay thai, ppl got to hunt down videos of stuff being used prior. Which im very well sure it has been done before.

If i was to say the spinning back fist isnt a muay thai move, which it typically isnt, someone on here will hunt down a video to prove me wrong of a spinning back fist being used in a muay thai fight. Which surely they have been used before, maybe even by top level thais, still dont make it a muay thai move, its a unorthodox muay thai move at best.

A thai goes to australia, watch what happens.....you cant see this same scenario happening in thailand way back in the golden era when it was unheard of for a foreigner to come fight there and win?

 

[verrix]

all im saying is that this. I/me/you didnt fight at lumpinee stadium in the 90's, therefore we cant speak on it, cause we didnt do it. Dekkers did however....hes been there done that. Hes certified,qualified,legit, to speak on it, cause he did it.

Therefore I will take his word over someone that has watched it on youtube.

I do believe that in the early days, him being one of the first foreigners to go over and fight and beat alot of their top level guys, that national pride got in the way, and if it came to a decision, the decision would go to the thai.

also everyone always wants to be an expert. I say mma tactics are being used in muay thai, ppl got to hunt down videos of stuff being used prior. Which im very well sure it has been done before.

If i was to say the spinning back fist isnt a muay thai move, which it typically isnt, someone on here will hunt down a video to prove me wrong of a spinning back fist being used in a muay thai fight. Which surely they have been used before, maybe even by top level thais, still dont make it a muay thai move, its a unorthodox muay thai move at best.

A thai goes to australia, watch what happens.....you cant see this same scenario happening in thailand way back in the golden era when it was unheard of for a foreigner to come fight there and win?

Sure, a robbery could always happen. I watched it ages ago so I could be wrong, but I think Dany Bill vs Nokweed Devy stands out. None of Dekkers' fights do, though, so I don't care what he said about it. Again, you're talking about taking people at their word or what you "believe" "could" happen, but I'm just watching the fights and seeing the decisions unfold exactly as expected. So, where's the problem? Which fights was he robbed, specifically?

Also, what are you talking about with this MMA stuff? If it's used in Muay Thai, in Thailand, before any major outside influence was present, of course it's a Muay Thai move. Maybe other people use it more, but so what? Would you say Karate doesn't have punches just because Boxers throw more of them? And why do you think Thais are changing anything because of MMA?

 

[Snubnoze707]

I been watching dekkers since before YouTube existed. K1 fans torrent days

So was I. I've even shook the man's hand. How have you not learned anything since those days?

 

[Snubnoze707]

all im saying is that this. I/me/you didnt fight at lumpinee stadium in the 90's, therefore we cant speak on it, cause we didnt do it. Dekkers did however....hes been there done that. Hes certified,qualified,legit, to speak on it, cause he did it.

But @anorak was there.

We have video evidence.

You're taking a bias opinion of a fighter as gospel. Fighters always feel robbed.

 

[AbeRudder]

all im saying is that this. I/me/you didnt fight at lumpinee stadium in the 90's, therefore we cant speak on it, cause we didnt do it. Dekkers did however....hes been there done that. Hes certified,qualified,legit, to speak on it, cause he did it.

Therefore I will take his word over someone that has watched it on youtube.

I do believe that in the early days, him being one of the first foreigners to go over and fight and beat alot of their top level guys, that national pride got in the way, and if it came to a decision, the decision would go to the thai.

also everyone always wants to be an expert. I say mma tactics are being used in muay thai, ppl got to hunt down videos of stuff being used prior. Which im very well sure it has been done before.

If i was to say the spinning back fist isnt a muay thai move, which it typically isnt, someone on here will hunt down a video to prove me wrong of a spinning back fist being used in a muay thai fight. Which surely they have been used before, maybe even by top level thais, still dont make it a muay thai move, its a unorthodox muay thai move at best.

A thai goes to australia, watch what happens.....you cant see this same scenario happening in thailand way back in the golden era when it was unheard of for a foreigner to come fight there and win?

Dekkers lost outside of thailand too

France



Japan



Hong Kong

 

[anorak]

you misread what I said. I never said anything about any foreigners placing bets.

What I am saying is that the thais were more likely to bet on the thai then on the foreinger/dekkers. So Dekkers loosing on a decision, would mean more people made money rather than lost.

and you totally misunderstood the point I was making! It takes two people to bet in the stadiums, so for every Thai betting on the opponent, they would have to place that bet with another Thai who would obviously had to have bet on Dekkers, for everyone making money as you say, there has to be someone losing money! So how would you have those Thais that are taking the bets on Dekkers to accept a wrong decision!?!? This isn't about being a keyboard warrior its about how the system works there and you are basing your knowledge on what? K-1fans torrent days. Well I have actually seen Dekkers fight live in Lumpini stadium and seen the Thai's betting as they always do on fights, and again for everyone there betting on the Thai they were betting with other Thai's that were placing their money on Dekkers. I saw Dekkers fight live in Paris as well and he was one of the main reasons I got into the sport as much as I did watching his fights back in late 80"s early 90's. I probably wouldn't be where I am now if it wasn't for being a fan of him, but the longer I've been involved in the sport the more understanding I've picked up and your argument is a false one, doesn't take anything away from what a warrior Ramon was, he is remembered by the Thai's more than any other foreigners that has competed in the sport and still held in high regard, but the decisions that went against him in the stadiums were fair.

 

[onne1983]

Sherdog logic, A fighter lost, so he is a can!
Come on, the hate for (Dutch) kickboxing here is off the charts! Muaythai has it's beautiful side, and so does Kickboxing. Both different sports.
But Ramon Dekkers deserves his credit, because of his style, Muaythai evolved. No he wasn't the best Muaythai fighter out there, but he was a warrior and never ducked anyone.


Lately all i see on this section of the Forum are topics about Muaythai vs western(Dutch) kickboxing, with all the MT fanboys acting all high and mighty over the regular kickboxing fans..