Are you expected to leave a tip, even if gratuity is included?

[ucunc156]

I've been to a few graduation dinners/lunches and 2 vacations over the past month, so we've gone to a bunch of restaurants recently that we usually dine in once every few months. It's usually 4 or 5 of us, give or take my two very young children (both under 2 years).

Anyways, my issue is with the expensive restaurants where you're expected to leave an outrageous tip. We never really ate at those kinds of places in Europe, so we didn't really have much of an issue with price, other than the currency exchange.

damn 5 people for 250? must be some pretty nice restaurants. i don't go to places like that (i dont give a shit about fancy food/ambience, give me thai/indian/mexican all day every day). only time i go to places where a plate runs over 30 is when i go out with my company who picks up the tab.

for what its worth, i agree, i am less inclined to tip 20% at a restaurant where i spent 30$ on the meal in comparison to a restaurant where i spent 10$ on a meal. i wont go less than 15% though because that part of me always says "you know the costs and expectations, dont dine in if you cant afford the minimum tip assuming good service".

 

[ucunc156]

Fuck all that, I'm a shitty tipper and don't give a a fuck! Life is hard. You brought my food which was already marked up don't expect any hand outs! Even with my shitty tips who ever brings my food is overpaid, anyone getting paid over minimum wage which is basically every food server is over paid. Your job Is not hard and I don't by that stressful BS, life is stress full. Many people who get paid less than servers do way harder jobs so Its hard for me to feel sorry for some overpaid waiters! If getting rid of tipping means higher food prices I'm all for keeping the tipping system so that I can continue to leave shitty tips and the sucker "white knights" can continue to chip in on the wait staffs rent!
If it didn't make me stick out like a sore thumb I would almost never tip!

well at least your honest unlike many other non tippers in this thread who complain about the principle of the matter/restaurants not picking up the tab.

 

[Dr J]

damn 5 people for 250? must be some pretty nice restaurants. i don't go to places like that (i dont give a shit about fancy food/ambience, give me thai/indian/mexican all day every day). only time i go to places where a plate runs over 30 is when i go out with my company who picks up the tab.

for what its worth, i agree, i am less inclined to tip 20% at a restaurant where i spent 30$ on the meal in comparison to a restaurant where i spent 10$ on a meal. i wont go less than 15% though because that part of me always says "you know the costs and expectations, dont dine in if you cant afford the minimum tip assuming good service".

Yeah, it's usually a rare occasion thing for me. I've just had a bunch of special occasions this last month.

It's not about being able to afford the tip for me. Being able to afford something isnt a good enough reason to do something, in my book. Paying $40-$50 for service is criminal. There are accountants who don't make that.

 

[Jesse Pinkman]

17% of 300 is like 50 bucks. That's a great tip

 

[RemoWilliams1a**]

Yeah, the owner MUST pay. Just like every single, other employer in the nation of 310,000,000 people MUST pay minimum wage or make the employee whole if they don't make it up through tips.
You are not above other people just because you have decided to pay them less than minimum wage, hoping that a custom of self entitlement and scabbing will make up for 2/3 of what you should be paying your employees.

No the land of the free comment is not silly. If you don't like paying people what they're owed, minimum wage, then get another job. It is a free country, start a business, have fun.

$18 for a burger is not cheap; stop telling everyone that the reason employers are cheap assholes and don't pay minimum wage is because you are getting a meal cheaper than another situation. - This is misleading and just plain ludicrous.
I could make 4 burgers for that amount if I did it myself, but I don't because I choose not to and rather enjoy eating out at restaurants that the people of my nation run.
Don't tell me that it is generous to charge someone $18 for two pieces of bread, meat, sauce and lettuce.

I'm rather surprised that you're defending the people that serve the overpriced food.
I'll pay for it, just don't whinge that you can't afford to pay employers minimum wage when you're overpricing everything you sell.

Perhaps people in the US are deathly poor and the food is outrageously cheap, I'm going about this argument on principle and logic. I am not considering demographic. So I will concede my ignorance to that variable in this discussion.
As an Australian, minimum wage here is quite high and tips are very common.

You completely skip the part of the debate that exposes your argument as flawed.

Again, you only get to pay less if, AND ONLY IF, others pay the tips that you do not. You are being subsidized by others.

The system in the US and Canada has two outcomes. Patrons tip, thus keeping the bill from the restaurant lower as the bulk of cost of service is paid direct to waitstaff by patrons. Patrons don't tip and the owner is therefore required to, and that cost is passed directly on to you in your bill.

Thus you can only hold your position if others tip for you and subsidize you or you will be forced to pay more or not eat in restaurants.

 

[RemoWilliams1a**]

Fuck all that, I'm a shitty tipper and don't give a a fuck! Life is hard. You brought my food which was already marked up don't expect any hand outs! Even with my shitty tips who ever brings my food is overpaid, anyone getting paid over minimum wage which is basically every food server is over paid. Your job Is not hard and I don't by that stressful BS, life is stress full. Many people who get paid less than servers do way harder jobs so Its hard for me to feel sorry for some overpaid waiters! If getting rid of tipping means higher food prices I'm all for keeping the tipping system so that I can continue to leave shitty tips and the sucker "white knights" can continue to chip in on the wait staffs rent!
If it didn't make me stick out like a sore thumb I would almost never tip!

I respect that you own it. I don't agree with or like your stance but at least you are honest with yourself. It is when guys like the outcome (I save money) and so they convince themselves of lies that I take issue.

You are correct that other tippers will subsidize you and that is already priced into the system.

 

[Dr J]

It's the percentage that gets me because as the bill gets higher, waiters get grossly overpaid, and it's expected to come out of my pocket. I'd rather pay over the odds for my food and let the owner decide how much goes to his employees.

Those of you in the food industry feel free to inform me how bartenders are supposed to be tipped, but I generally give $1 for a drink and $2-3 if I have a multiple order. If it went on the same system as waiters, I could go into a dive bar, pay $10 for a 5 cheap beers like Bud Light, and tip the guy $2. Now if I'm out in Vegas or New York and order 5 premium beers for $8 apiece, I'd be expected to give the guy $8 for opening beers the exact same way the other guy did. It sounds ridiculous because it is. The work is not worth that much money. I feel the same way about tipping waiters (though I don't follow through). As the bill gets higher, the cost should max out. Any server calling someone cheap for leaving a $20 tip needs a reality check.

 

[afrdzak]

I presume that if we abolish tipping in the US, the costs of food/drink will increase anywhere from 20-30%. With an expectation that 15-20% would be for covering the costs of the service staff. Anytime a business owner has a chance to markup (due to regulations, increased food costs, increased rent/insurance, etc), they do so....and then some. You wouldn't even notice the difference per item until the bill came...where you could see the aggregate difference.

Those working at higher end restaurants would make more salary than those working at lower end restaurants. No different than now with tips. But the checks between the two would be increased at a very similar rate percentage-wise.

Dr. J: I always tip between 15-20%...unless I'm getting free drinks. In which case I make sure to tip at least 20% of what my bill WOULD have been had I those drinks not been for free. I don't max out my tips. A percentage is a percentage. I can control the total amount of percentage by ceasing to order. I know that servers are taxed on a percentage basis. I know that servers tip out on total sales. So I tip based on my bill without limitation. If I want to limit that tip, I limit what I order.

 

[Dr J]

Dr. J: I always tip between 15-20%...unless I'm getting free drinks. In which case I make sure to tip at least 20% of what my bill WOULD have been had I those drinks not been for free. I don't max out my tips. A percentage is a percentage. I can control the total amount of percentage by ceasing to order. I know that servers are taxed on a percentage basis. I know that servers tip out on total sales. So I tip based on my bill without limitation. If I want to limit that tip, I limit what I order.

To each his own, but paying a guy $8 for handing you a few beers is ridiculous.

 

[afrdzak]

To each his own, indeed.
Without thought, I factor in the cost of the tip with my order. So, if I order a $10 Sapphire Martini, I think to myself....$12.

When I'm looking to not spend a lot of money, I go to the local dive that serves $10 pitchers!

 

[lifeintruth74]

I presume that if we abolish tipping in the US, the costs of food/drink will increase anywhere from 20-30%. With an expectation that 15-20% would be for covering the costs of the service staff. Anytime a business owner has a chance to markup (due to regulations, increased food costs, increased rent/insurance, etc), they do so....and then some. You wouldn't even notice the difference per item until the bill came...where you could see the aggregate difference.

Those working at higher end restaurants would make more salary than those working at lower end restaurants. No different than now with tips. But the checks between the two would be increased at a very similar rate percentage-wise.

Dr. J: I always tip between 15-20%...unless I'm getting free drinks. In which case I make sure to tip at least 20% of what my bill WOULD have been had I those drinks not been for free. I don't max out my tips. A percentage is a percentage. I can control the total amount of percentage by ceasing to order. I know that servers are taxed on a percentage basis. I know that servers tip out on total sales. So I tip based on my bill without limitation. If I want to limit that tip, I limit what I order.

They are only taxed 8%.

 

[afrdzak]

They are only taxed 8%.

The tip is not to only cover their taxes. And the standard for reported taxes, federally, is 10% of your sales to avoid audit. Tipouts (which are on top of taxes) vary per establishment. My intent is not to only provide what will cover taxes, but also to provide take home for the person serving me.

I understand you live in WA, where apparently they work on a different pay structure than the rest of the country (I honestly do not know). I am only speaking from experience in areas that I have lived and worked.

 

[200x Better]

I've never given tip when gratuity is included.

 

[lifeintruth74]

The tip is not to only cover their taxes. And the standard for reported taxes, federally, is 10% of your sales to avoid audit. Tipouts (which are on top of taxes) vary per establishment. My intent is not to only provide what will cover taxes, but also to provide take home for the person serving me.

I understand you live in WA, where apparently they work on a different pay structure than the rest of the country (I honestly do not know). I am only speaking from experience in areas that I have lived and worked.

I provided a link a couple pages back that breaks down the law for every state regarding tipped employees. Don't think it slipped past me that it was glossed over in this thread. I understand when the basis of an arguement is shaken at it's foundations that it's usually ignored.

In any case I'm off to eat dinner with my kids, and will leave the customary 18% (double the tax here) whether the service is good or not. I will also order water and skip desserts to keep my costs down.

 

[afrdzak]

I provided a link a couple pages back that breaks down the law for every state regarding tipped employees. Don't think it slipped past me that it was glossed over in this thread. I understand when the basis of an arguement is shaken at it's foundations that it's usually ignored.

In any case I'm off to eat dinner with my kids, and will leave the customary 18% (double the tax here) whether the service is good or not. I will also order water and skip desserts to keep my costs down.

Yes. And per your link, the areas I have worked in and commented on (DC and VA) have salaries of: $2.77/hr and $2.13/hr respectively.

Pretty weird as I was making $2.13/hr back in 1996. I figured it would have increased by now. Regardless, my point stands, and even more so, since those numbers apparently haven't changed in almost a decade. Only 6 states pay $7.00/hr or more in the country. Hardly shaking an argument at its foundation when there are 50 states (plus DC) in play.

 

[tkotom]

tkotom no one is calling you a cheap bastard for not tipping graciously in Australia. Like you said, prices are already high enough there, and not coincidentally, tips aren't expected in Australia.


http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g255055-s606/Australia:Tipping.And.Etiquette.html

But in the US it's a totally different story, and that's what we've been trying to explain in this thread.

well fair enough then.

 

[tkotom]

I'm in the same boat. I always tip, but I hate the fact that an employee's salary is directly put on me, yet I'd be considered cheap if I didn't pay what they expect.

that would bother me too.

then again, I've heard everything in the US is cheap, I must find out for myself one of these days.

 

[tkotom]

nobody is calling you cheap for not tipping in australia tko! we are speaking specificially in the US

yeah they did a ton of clothes shopping while here too. but from what i gathered, the price of the raw food from the supermarket in the us to the restaurant markup isn't anywhere near the markup seen in australia for that. and that is partly due to the fact that the labor costs are primarily subsidized via the tipping system.

all i am saying is, when in rome. i would leave a very small tip if i went to australia (like i am doing now in india), but in the US i always leave 15-20% (low as 10 if really shitty or high as 20+cost of free stuff they gave me if really good)

Yeh I guess you're onto something there.

 

[Naramie]

"Buy low, sell high."
"Measure twice, cut once."
"Don't mix hard liquor and beer."

Now those are some good tips.

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

so instead of the owner shafting employees, you would rather the owner shaft his customers (oddly enough, the employees you are ripping in this scenario for being entitled are the ones that would benefit since nobody would be able to stiff them anymore).

Even if their were no tips and the owner increased prices 15-20% they would go into his pocket, they wouldnt go to the servers.

Bottom line: the owner is a tight-arse who is squeezing everything he can out of the customer and his employees. Whether its through tipping or increased prices.

But if I had to choose between the BS that goes through tipping or just increased food prices I woudl choose the latter.

foot, meet mouth. glad to know you would rather just be told what to do by the owner of the restaurant rather than make the decision for yourself. you still call mommy to wipe your ass too?

You havent been reading my posts very well. I already said I have no problem giving ZERO tips or ZERO fvks about the whole thing then whiny bishes like you started complaining about how Im cheap and you have to subsidize me even though its supposedly voluntary.