Law Arizona House votes to repeal 1864 law banning abortions

[Sweater of AV]

You guys are so dishonest, it's like clockwork.

Is it the responsibility of a woman to ensure she doesn't get pregnant in the first place if she cannot care for a child? Why can't a single one of you guys answer this question without bringing up rape or how responsible the woman is for walking into an abortion clinic.

Here's a hint, just like you guys that think men can get pregnant....if you need to lie, suspend reality or ignore facts to keep your ideology intact, then your ideology probably isn't a good one.

 

[dirtypablo]

All you guys have are these random low percentage scenarios like rape and faulty birth control. You do realize that most girls get pregnant because they aren't on birth control, aren't raped and had unprotected sex, right?

How do you know this? Have you interviewed hundreds or thousands of women who've had abortions? What percentage of women who get an abortion do you think were on birth control at the time they got pregnant?

Are you completely unaware of the fact that people have researched this?

 

[LMP]

A woman who has unprotected sex and has an unwanted pregnancy because of that has a personal responsibility to not get pregnant in the first place if she can't afford to have a kid. It's pretty damn simple.

All you guys have are these random low percentage scenarios like rape and faulty birth control. You do realize that most girls get pregnant because they aren't on birth control, aren't raped and had unprotected sex, right?



I already said that I'm good with first trimester abortions. I don't like it but I think it's a fair compromise. I've said it multiple times already.

Is it not the responsibility of the people who had sex and couldn't afford to have a kid to not recklessly engage in the behavior that leads to pregnancy? You are usually of sound mind but are you really going to jump on the bandwagon that people aren't responsible for their own behaviors when having sex with each other?

It's so weird that not a single one of you guys can just simply say that people have a responsibility to not risk a pregnancy when they are not ready to take care of a child. I wouldn't buy things I can't afford or ride a dirt bike if I didn't have a health plan or drive a car if I didn't have car insurance. Bad things can happen if you irresponsibly engage in risky behaviors. When I was hooking up with random girls when I was younger, I always made sure I wore protection because I didn't want to risk getting the girl pregnant. It's not rocket science.

You keep going this ridiculous "personal responsibility" crap. If you just want to prevent late term abortion for people that don't have medical emergencies, that is fine to feel that way and is something most people would probably agree with you on. Instead you keep going in about how irresponsible it is to have sex even though you supposedly support a 15 or so week ban, which wouldn't include most of the people you want to prevent for having an abortion.


It's just a dumb argument where you are talking out both sides of your mouth. The people that are pushing for abortion bans and are getting these laws passed don't want to allow any abortion. They keep trying to pass stupid fucking laws that wouldn't even take into account medical emergencies. Most people find the range of 15-20 weeks fairly acceptable. With exemption for medical emergency, rape, and incest. That time line makes a fair amount of sense. In some pregnancies a problem may not show up until later.

Once again the people pushing these laws don't ever include the exemptions, even though they are common sense. The people against abortion bans recognize that these sort of bans being pushed are ridiculous. "Personal responsibility" shit is used to get bored line people like yourself to agree that it's better to ban all abortion than it is to allow people to "murder" babies.

Personally I think there are many cases where quality of that child's life or hardships because of known birth defects should also be included in the exemptions. However it not a hard pressing issue for me. If we make it to where the burden is lessened on the family by providing aid for the care of these individuals. Anytime where there is a higher than normal risk to the child or mother it should be left up to the individual and their doctor to make the correct decision for the pregnant mother. I think the most moral solution is to provide free aid and care to the pregnant women and ensure that the best possible out come for all involved is achieved.

 

[Scerpi]

A woman who has unprotected sex and has an unwanted pregnancy because of that has a personal responsibility to not get pregnant in the first place if she can't afford to have a kid. It's pretty damn simple.

All you guys have are these random low percentage scenarios like rape and faulty birth control. You do realize that most girls get pregnant because they aren't on birth control, aren't raped and had unprotected sex, right?



I already said that I'm good with first trimester abortions. I don't like it but I think it's a fair compromise. I've said it multiple times already.

Is it not the responsibility of the people who had sex and couldn't afford to have a kid to not recklessly engage in the behavior that leads to pregnancy? You are usually of sound mind but are you really going to jump on the bandwagon that people aren't responsible for their own behaviors when having sex with each other?

It's so weird that not a single one of you guys can just simply say that people have a responsibility to not risk a pregnancy when they are not ready to take care of a child. I wouldn't buy things I can't afford or ride a dirt bike if I didn't have a health plan or drive a car if I didn't have car insurance. Bad things can happen if you irresponsibly engage in risky behaviors. When I was hooking up with random girls when I was younger, I always made sure I wore protection because I didn't want to risk getting the girl pregnant. It's not rocket science.

It’s not a bandwagon

I’m almost always pragmatic.

You want to discuss the moral argument, I’ll listen… I get how some people thinks it’s murder. I don’t agree until it’s late term.

Also, the people who are irresponsible and don’t take precautions are probably the ones who should get abortions first anyway.

It really sounds like your extremely pro-life, but acting like you’re in the center

It’s fine… I don’t judge. But you’re being disingenuous about the 15 weeks cut off. Either you agree to it or not. The reasons why it’s wanted doesn’t matter at that point. It’s not your business. Unless you’re trying to be the moral police.

 

[no fat chicks]

What exactly is the argument against personal responsibility?

That the numbers show its more than that. The material conditions people are born into play a way bigger affect than muh personal responsibility. The biggest indicator of success is the situation you were born into. We should be striving to create a society that offers everyone a fair start.

 

[CubicleGangster]

A woman who has unprotected sex and has an unwanted pregnancy because of that has a personal responsibility to not get pregnant in the first place if she can't afford to have a kid. It's pretty damn simple.

All you guys have are these random low percentage scenarios like rape and faulty birth control. You do realize that most girls get pregnant because they aren't on birth control, aren't raped and had unprotected sex, right?

A man who climbs a ladder in an unsafe manner and has an unwanted fall because of that has a personal responsibility to not fall in the first place if he can't afford to get hurt. It's pretty damn simple.

Time to stop denying medical care based on personal responsibility.

 

[no fat chicks]

You realize there’s studies on this topic right? I’m not just pulling this out of my ass. You think unloved children growing up in poverty mostly become well functioning adults? Really dude?

Yeah bro, they just need person responsibility!

 

[no fat chicks]

A woman who has unprotected sex and has an unwanted pregnancy because of that has a personal responsibility to not get pregnant in the first place if she can't afford to have a kid. It's pretty damn simple.

All you guys have are these random low percentage scenarios like rape and faulty birth control. You do realize that most girls get pregnant because they aren't on birth control, aren't raped and had unprotected sex, right?



I already said that I'm good with first trimester abortions. I don't like it but I think it's a fair compromise. I've said it multiple times already.

Is it not the responsibility of the people who had sex and couldn't afford to have a kid to not recklessly engage in the behavior that leads to pregnancy? You are usually of sound mind but are you really going to jump on the bandwagon that people aren't responsible for their own behaviors when having sex with each other?

It's so weird that not a single one of you guys can just simply say that people have a responsibility to not risk a pregnancy when they are not ready to take care of a child. I wouldn't buy things I can't afford or ride a dirt bike if I didn't have a health plan or drive a car if I didn't have car insurance. Bad things can happen if you irresponsibly engage in risky behaviors. When I was hooking up with random girls when I was younger, I always made sure I wore protection because I didn't want to risk getting the girl pregnant. It's not rocket science.

Hey aren't you a big supporter of that party that wants to eliminate sex ed?

 

[CantCucktheTuck]

Hey aren't you a big supporter of that party that wants to eliminate sex ed?

Just the gay kind.

 

[jamel]

MTV’s Teenage Mom show is what damaged all the numbers

Watching Farrahs trajectory scared the shit out of many girls.

I mean abortion is damaging yes, but that show had a bigger impact than planned parenthood.

 

[RoastBeast]

It's not rocket science but it's also not black and white either. No female in the history of mankind has ever become pregnant on her own. Your argument is to basically provide contraceptives for women but the people who want zero tolerance abortion bans also lobby against having to provide such measures as normal health care benefits. And no matter how responsible you are sometimes shit happens. Common sense abortion laws don't include an investigation into whether the pregnant woman was responsible enough.

Yeah and my argument is not that women and only women have a personal and moral responsibility to not risk a pregnancy if you can't care for the child responsibly.

 

[Sinister]

Just the gay kind.

 

[RoastBeast]

How do you know this? Have you interviewed hundreds or thousands of women who've had abortions? What percentage of women who get an abortion do you think were on birth control at the time they got pregnant?

Are you completely unaware of the fact that people have researched this?

Birth control is like 99% effective. The percentage of women that get pregnant from being raped is very low. It's just common sense and even if it was 90% rape/failed birth control and 10% irresponsible behavior, my point would still stand. The point that you guys are avoiding like it's the plague.

It’s not a bandwagon

I’m almost always pragmatic.

You want to discuss the moral argument, I’ll listen… I get how some people thinks it’s murder. I don’t agree until it’s late term.

Also, the people who are irresponsible and don’t take precautions are probably the ones who should get abortions first anyway.

It really sounds like your extremely pro-life, but acting like you’re in the center

It’s fine… I don’t judge. But you’re being disingenuous about the 15 weeks cut off. Either you agree to it or not. The reasons why it’s wanted doesn’t matter at that point. It’s not your business. Unless you’re trying to be the moral police.

How many times do I have to say I agree with a first trimester compromise? I feel like I've said it a dozen times already. Either you read it and believe it or you don't.

Even if I'm ok with that, that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be some sort of shame when it comes to getting an abortion because you had an irresponsible night of unprotected fun. At least you somewhat admitted that the act itself is irresponsible if a person can't care for a child. An abortion should not be as normal as going to the doctor to get a cast on your leg as these other guys would lead people to believe.

A man who climbs a ladder in an unsafe manner and has an unwanted fall because of that has a personal responsibility to not fall in the first place if he can't afford to get hurt. It's pretty damn simple.

Time to stop denying medical care based on personal responsibility.

When did I say I was going to deny medical care based on personal responsibility? You guys just can't help but be dishonest, can you? Getting a cast on your leg and killing a baby fetus are very different, don't you think? Pretending that all medical care is the same is dishonest as hell. Are sex changes for kids the same thing as getting antibiotics for an infection? You might want to use a different analogy and a more honest comparison.

Do people that can't afford to take care of a kid have a personal responsibility to not risk a pregnancy by having unprotected sex? Not a single one of you can answer this question. Weird as fuck.

Hey aren't you a big supporter of that party that wants to eliminate sex ed?

Aren't you a big supporter of a party that thinks men can get pregnant and belong in changing rooms with little girls?

I'm a big supporter of not having books in school that detail the account of a gay kid enjoying being molested by his uncle. You are a supporter of the party who wants all kids to read that book to "educate" them.

 

[Andy Capp]

You're comparing falling off a ladder to having unprotected sex? Lmao

You don't accidentally have unprotected sex like you can accidentally fall off a ladder. You don't need to utilize unprotected sex to fix something on a roof.

The dishonesty from you guys never ends, does it?

I'm for first trimester abortions being legal but that does not mean that women should not have a personal responsibility to not get pregnant in the first place. How dishonest do you have to be to keep on pretending that you don't understand that simple concept?

Re: the bold text, you're apparently totally unaware of how often contraception fails to prevent pregnancy.

• Shorter-acting hormonal methods include the pill, patch, injectable and vaginal ring. The injectable has a typical-use failure rate of 4%, and a perfect-use failure rate of less than 1%.1,2 The pill, ring and patch have typical-use failure rates of 7%, and perfect-use failure rates of less than 1%.
• Male condoms and internal (female) condoms are considered “coitally dependent” methods, because they are generally employed near the time of sexual intercourse. The male condom has a typical-use failure rate of 13%, and a perfect-use failure rate of 2%.1,2 Internal condoms have a typical-use failure rate of 21% and a perfect-use failure rate of 5%.1 Male and internal condoms are the only contraceptive methods available that simultaneously prevent pregnancy and protect against STIs, including HIV.
• Other coitally dependent methods include the sponge, the diaphragm, withdrawal and spermicides. Typical-use failure rates for these methods range from 14% to 27%; perfect-use failure rates range from 4% to 20%.1,2

So, depending upon the method, it could fail on as many as one in five occasions. Now, you can fairly say that different methods have lesser or greater degrees of effectiveness so why not use the more effective ones, and sure, I would recommend that. But would you propose to legislate (or for that matter merely judge morally as irresponsible) against the use of certain forms of contraception? Where do you draw the line when it comes it interfering in the personal choices of others?

 

[CantCucktheTuck]

anyone who has used abortion as a form of birth control has automatically lost every moral argument they may have during their entire life.

 

[RoastBeast]

Re: the bold text, you're apparently totally unaware of how often contraception fails to prevent pregnancy.

• Shorter-acting hormonal methods include the pill, patch, injectable and vaginal ring. The injectable has a typical-use failure rate of 4%, and a perfect-use failure rate of less than 1%.1,2 The pill, ring and patch have typical-use failure rates of 7%, and perfect-use failure rates of less than 1%.
• Male condoms and internal (female) condoms are considered “coitally dependent” methods, because they are generally employed near the time of sexual intercourse. The male condom has a typical-use failure rate of 13%, and a perfect-use failure rate of 2%.1,2 Internal condoms have a typical-use failure rate of 21% and a perfect-use failure rate of 5%.1 Male and internal condoms are the only contraceptive methods available that simultaneously prevent pregnancy and protect against STIs, including HIV.
• Other coitally dependent methods include the sponge, the diaphragm, withdrawal and spermicides. Typical-use failure rates for these methods range from 14% to 27%; perfect-use failure rates range from 4% to 20%.1,2

So, depending upon the method, it could fail on as many as one in five occasions. Now, you can fairly say that different methods have lesser or greater degrees of effectiveness so why not use the more effective ones, and sure, I would recommend that. But would you propose to legislate (or for that matter merely judge morally as irresponsible) against the use of certain forms of contraception? Where do you draw the line when it comes it interfering in the personal choices of others?

Birth control does not fail in as many as one in five occasions unless women are forgetting to take their pills or guys are breaking condoms, pulling them off etc. Personal responsibility is making sure that you are responsible with your pregnancy preventative measures. I know you guys dishonestly just cannot admit that for some weird reason but it's true. If you don't want the girl to get pregnant, you should be responsible and wear a condom to ensure she doesn't get pregnant. I did it my whole life unless I was in a monogamous relationship and wouldn't you know it, I never got any women pregnant and didn't catch any diseases either. All through personal responsibility. What a concept!

I'm not sure why you're asking me if I would legislated against the use of certain forms of contraception. I've never said I want anything legislated other than no abortion after the first trimester. I'll throw out the caveat for women who were raped and didn't know they were pregnant, the health of the mother and other extenuating circumstances.

Do people that can't afford to take care of a kid have a personal responsibility to not risk a pregnancy by having unprotected sex?

 

[Sweater of AV]

anyone who has used abortion as a form of birth control has automatically lost every moral argument they may have during their entire life.

It's telling that the people most vehemently against abortion have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

 

[CantCucktheTuck]

It's telling that the people most vehemently against abortion have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

There are people in this thread defending aborting strictly for the purpose of disposing of an unwanted child after unprotected sex.

 

[Sinister]

There are people in this thread describing a child as, idealistically, an unavoidable consequence of irresponsible behavior. Children are consequences, a sentence that must be served, and this is almost exclusively mentioned in the context of women.

 

[avenue94]

So what? You don't like abortion and yes there's a many that come from "mistakes" or bad judgement.

But there's not many times in life where "Bad Judgement" leads to a massive change in your life for 18 years. Outside of a felony. A Bad Judgement fueled by raging hormones in young people... Asking a 17 year old girl to drop all her goals in life to dedicate the next 18 years to a kid.... often she's solo, because the males often bail like the worms they are. Give her the option to hit the reset button. Seriously... I'm not a fan of abortion, but you don't know the other person's life situation.

And you also have to realize this is an issue where a compromise has to be met. A compromise where people on both sides will be unhappy... mostly the extremes on both sides. But a huge number of people, even conservatives and independents agree there should be some allowances made for abortion. And Republicans need to stop pandering to the religious right on this topic. It's killing them... Like Democrats pandering to the crazy radicals on the left.

And @LMP's is right... 15 weeks is a good middle of the road number.

And maybe the spineless fucks in DC, both the Senate and House should pass a nationwide law instead of relying on previous court cases (Roe vs Wade) or the Supreme Court to make these decisions.

You know.. actually do their job. Democrats owned both houses before 2022. Why didn't they get off their asses and pass something when they had the chance? They cried and cried about the Supreme Court shooting down "Roe vs Wade"... yet they did nothing.

Because they are cowards... on both sides

...are you not familiar with how the legislative branch works or the filibuster?