Comic Book Debates

[jdionio]

this makes me feel better, thank you.

I think it was was worse they made you think that Dog was the real Wolverine since it was just a typical bait and switch.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

Yup, Uncanny was awesome, too. It really felt like they were rebuilding with old and new characters. I loved it.
Yes, there were some good crossovers and short arcs, but nothing that felt as fresh as Bendis' run, imo

That was a big move at the time too. Bendis was off avengers after many many successful years and Hickman was put on The title. Bendis moved over to the Xmen line.

 

[MaveDeltzer]

I'm actually shocked Prof X hasn't been brought back. They really fucked up with him too. If they didn't kill him off then they probably would have made him a child molester.

Stan Lee was way ahead of you making him a Ephebophile.

 

[THEfightsAREfixed]

I hardened at comic book and fucking exploded at lore debates

 

[MadSquabbles500]

There are suppose to be 7 total S Forces in the DC uni. We have sage, speed, strength, and still. What are the other three?

Please tell me one is the Sex Force, and Zatanna Zatarra taps that.

 

[90 50]

Alright you baked potatoes

I've been seeing a lot of posters confuse the lore debates behind famous superheroes/villains
and I'm curious if anyone can hold their own in some famous comic book arguments

Feel free to add your own comic book controversies, origin story debates, spin-off series complaints, but I'll lay down some of the famous ones:

1. How old is the earliest Spiderman? (fans of the series take issue with aging Peter/MJ up into a college setting bitten by a spider touring NYU campus while others find the high school setting too young) Maybe that's not interesting enough you feel like tackling Spiderman's webs: man-made or genetic? (web-shooters vs sticky hands?)

2.
When the Origin series hit shelves in 2002 fans largely rejected the idea that Wolverine could have an origin story without the Weapon X program -- instead of a metal alloy exoskeleton Wolverine's claws were bone; his birthplace moved from Canada to the deep South. Huckleberry Finn Wolverine or Lab Rat Wolverine? Never mind the origin story, is Sabertooth Wolverine's brother? (confirmed in several spin-offs while still disputed by readers)

3. What happens to Batgirl? Die-hard fans of Batgirl (and Supergirl) have pointed out for years that the character's own writers were fed-up with the challenges of writing heroic scenarios for them and pushed relentlessly for storylines that planted them in "damsel in distress" roles when they weren't being killed off or made to look dead. Alan Moore's The Killing Joke in 1988 and several other "Death of Batgirl" spin-offs lay the groundwork for Oracle -- a paralyzed and retired Batgirl who becomes a handy mission-control operative for Batman and other heroes. Die hard fans reject the premise of Oracle as a history reminder of how Batgirl writers repeatedly stifled her ability to succeed, while many fans loved the gritty harshness/nihilism in Batgirl's second-form. Does crippling Batgirl jump the shark and waste her character potential? The same could easily apply to Supergirl's death (?) which has also been called a lazy move by fans



4. Is Superman faster than the Flash? Several comics feature Flash mocking Superman for being slower than him, which drew powerful denial from Superman fans. What about Quicksilver?

5. What deaths are canon? Marvel's editor Joe Quesada famously hated the marriages of Peter Parker and Gwen Stacey/Mary Jane (both Stan Lee's ideas) and believed they would lose YA reader interest; he instructed storyboards move quickly to feature Gwen's death shortly after the wedding which stunned fans and inspired mountains of complaints from fans begging the writers to bring her back. While several subsequent storylines revealed Gwen's death to be a red herring, her death is largely considered Canon. Like the Death of Superman, Death of Batman, not to mention the slew of X-men storylines that wiped everyone off the face of the earth, whose deaths would you argue need to be canon?

6. Ant-Man and Wasp: Domestic Abuse? Many fans defend Hank Pym's accidental origins as a wife-beater (a famous mix-up where a backhand was drawn instead of the 'push' instructed) on the grounds that it highlights his failures and hypocrisies as a superhero and wanted it to feature in the latest Ant Man/Wasp film adaptation which of course opted out. While alcoholism and abuse became Ant Man's trademark weaknesses, many fans argue that trapping Wasp under glasses, burning her with a magnifying glass (among other punishments) goes too far


You don't need a binder full of source-material to argue these points by the way, any angles are welcome

I'll update the list if I recall more or if anyone has some great ones

I’ll take a bite at Spider-Man, and how the recent last three movie series don’t set real well with me.

Now, I admittedly haven’t read comic books since I was a kid, and all the Spider-Man comics I have span from the late 70’s to the mid 80’s at the oldest. Maybe even early 80’s.

I’d have to dig them out and look.

Spider-Man was always older as I remeber, college age to young adult. Not highschool age. With the first movie series we some of that as 2/3 he’s out of school.

But he wasn’t a Manlet, he was big. Not like Thor big, but not a Manlet.

Hell even the CURRENT Spider-Man toys, he’s big. So it’s like the toy manufacturers still recognize the larger more muscular Spider-Man even though the movies are making him S M A L L

And he is supposed to be one of the STRONGEST of all the hero’s,

 

[Aegon Spengler]

yeah, its crazy how it just fell apart.
I was legit bitter that they cancelled that All New X book for Secret Wars. That was the best X book in over a decade - the whole franchise was amazing at that point and then .... kaisersouze"poof".gif

For the X Men I usually only read the Nightcrawler centred storylines and mini series. Love me some Nightcrawler.

However I have dreams of someday finishing a comic I have been working on with a friend.

If I could ever write some comics I’d go straight to wolverine. A story with Sabertooth having the venom symbitoe and an antebellum era story where Sabertooth is a slave owner on a plantation and wolverine is doing Underground Railroad stuff.

 

[MacDuffle]

Wolverine's origin wasn't moved to the deep south, he's still a Canuck.

There I stand corrected -- the Origin series was controversially received and I assumed it was in part because they moved the birthplace South, but it's still Canadian. Due to the attention his slain wife Mariko receives in the comic books many fans wanted his birthplace to move to Japan for spin-offs but even the most Japan-set comics didn't relocate

Domestic Abuse Hank Pym was retconned to be a Skrull in Secret Invasion.

Which was a move to undo the controversy behind early canon, it was very much a part of both old and modern comic versions, which leaves fans the ability to choose whether he's a Skrull the whole time(a lazy writing move imo) or whether he's a true-to-life abusive alchoholic. The metaphor of Wasp's superpowers shrinking her to avoid domestic abuse (hiding around the room in miniature) was one of the more poignant moments in superhero power-metaphor extensions I've ever seen, albeit in need of some adjustments to Hank's violence which I would argue went too far

Peter never married Gwen Stacy.

Peter Parker never married Gwen Stacy.

Don't worry it didn't last long

 

[MacDuffle]

Did you happen to catch the Ultimates series that Dillon pencilled where they were all turned into vampires? lol so bad.

but those Batman vampire spin-offs doe
I was going to post a page from one but the level of gore is intense

 

[MacDuffle]

Spider-Man was always older as I remember, college age to young adult. Not high school age. With the first movie series we some of that as 2/3 he’s out of school.

According to first-appearances he is bitten by the spider while in high school and fights general crime until he enrolls in college where he meets The Osborns, Gwen Stacey and Mary Jane kicking off the Goblin saga

In later (modern) versions he attends high school with Gwen Stacey and Mary Jane, who are sometimes dating Flash Thompson

So old-school fans reject the high-school MJ/Stacey setting as slightly creepy while younger fans who grew up with the reboots want some relatable steamy high school lovins

...also Venom Flash Thompson is not canon no matter what people tell me, f*ck you guys

 

[Anung Un Rama]

I’ll take a bite at Spider-Man, and how the recent last three movie series don’t set real well with me.

Now, I admittedly haven’t read comic books since I was a kid, and all the Spider-Man comics I have span from the late 70’s to the mid 80’s at the oldest. Maybe even early 80’s.

I’d have to dig them out and look.

Spider-Man was always older as I remeber, college age to young adult. Not highschool age. With the first movie series we some of that as 2/3 he’s out of school.

But he wasn’t a Manlet, he was big. Not like Thor big, but not a Manlet.

Hell even the CURRENT Spider-Man toys, he’s big. So it’s like the toy manufacturers still recognize the larger more muscular Spider-Man even though the movies are making him S M A L L

And he is supposed to be one of the STRONGEST of all the hero’s,

Spidey is much stronger than he lets on, but he's not one of the strongest.
For example, Spidy has traditionally been able to lift 15 tons in the comics whereas Luke Cage has been in the 50 ton range.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

For the X Men I usually only read the Nightcrawler centred storylines and mini series. Love me some Nightcrawler.

However I have dreams of someday finishing a comic I have been working on with a friend.

If I could ever write some comics I’d go straight to wolverine. A story with Sabertooth having the venom symbitoe and an antebellum era story where Sabertooth is a slave owner on a plantation and wolverine is doing Underground Railroad stuff.

I like this. I also like the idea of Logan being the character in Last Samurai. I jaded Union Soldier with PTSD, a bloodust, and a mutant secret.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

There I stand corrected -- the Origin series was controversially received and I assumed it was in part because they moved the birthplace South, but it's still Canadian. Due to the attention his slain wife Mariko receives in the comic books many fans wanted his birthplace to move to Japan for spin-offs but even the most Japan-set comics didn't relocate

Those fans are morons. Logan is white, why would they think his origins started in Japan?
Like I posted just above, there should be an arc of Logan spending time in Japan (learning Japanese and martial arts), but as part of his history, not his origin.

Which was a move to undo the controversy behind early canon, it was very much a part of both old and modern comic versions, which leaves fans the ability to choose whether he's a Skrull the whole time(a lazy writing move imo) or whether he's a true-to-life abusive alchoholic. The metaphor of Wasp's superpowers shrinking her to avoid domestic abuse (hiding around the room in miniature) was one of the more poignant moments in superhero power-metaphor extensions I've ever seen, albeit in need of some adjustments to Hank's violence which I would argue went too far

@KONG-D'SNT-TAP corrected me after my original post; the Skrull retcon did not go back far enough to retcon Domestic Abuse Hank.

Don't worry it didn't last long

They never got married doe

 

[MacDuffle]

Spidey is much stronger than he lets on, but he's not one of the strongest.
For example, Spidy has traditionally been able to lift 15 tons in the comics whereas Luke Cage has been in the 50 ton range.

this ^

Spidey fights best when driving his opponents' momentum into things that hurt them he's not really a brute-force type hero until later costumes make him stronger (Captain Universe for instance)

I choose to think Amazing Bag Man came with enhanced abilities shut up no you're stupid

 

[HomerThompson]

Yeah that's what I mean. It just expanded on the Weapon X thing.

It even made captain America a part of the project.


Now Rama what about this. Remember this.

The Wolverine Origins ongoing series in around 2006. Steve Dillon did the artwork for the series and Daniel Way did the story.

Remember he fought Nuke, who was another weapon x product. During this Logan was on a mission to find his origin as well.

It was similar to what Mike Carey did with Rogue during that Xmen Legacy series



Fucking A this shit is confusing. Even for us

Ugh. That art is terrible, imo.

 

[90 50]

According to first-appearances he is bitten by the spider while in high school and fights general crime until he enrolls in college where he meets The Osborns, Gwen Stacey and Mary Jane kicking off the Goblin saga

In later (modern) versions he attends high school with Gwen Stacey and Mary Jane, who are sometimes dating Flash Thompson

So old-school fans reject the high-school MJ/Stacey setting as slightly creepy while younger fans who grew up with the reboots want some relatable steamy high school lovins

...also Venom Flash Thompson is not canon no matter what people tell me, f*ck you guys

Spidey is much stronger than he lets on, but he's not one of the strongest.
For example, Spidy has traditionally been able to lift 15 tons in the comics whereas Luke Cage has been in the 50 ton range.

There is more too what I want to write but it’s storming right now and the page keeps trying to reload as I type, I’ll circle back later and finish off where I was going.

 

[Law Talkin’ Guy]

Pretty sure it's Allen. Last I heard he is back to being Flash full time.

My thoughts on this were like yours. Trying to do the Green Lantern thing with The Flash, with a little Endless thrown in. All of the forces are "s" words. There's a Still Force too.

LOL, a still force? This reminds me of Agent Mulder’s Hair’s final thread about why movie is a funny word, because it just describes moving pictures, and I said “I prefer regular photos, or stillies as I call them, because they stay still”. Now you’re telling me there’s a still Force? Does Drax tap into it?

 

[MacDuffle]

It's worth noting that many of these controversies were big enough to inspire death threats in the fandom

the 2012 body-swapping modern spin-off featuring Peter Parker's death and Dr Octavius dating Mary Jane in Peter's body left lead writer Dan Slott with a pile of dangerous mail and Stan Lee's confused stamp of approval (he later denied the plot as canon)

but honestly f*ck Dan Slott because anyone who read the damn thing knows it highlighted the gross sex-trickery elements and didn't go the funnier route of making Doc Ock's swap a fish-out-water comedy

 

[Aegon Spengler]

It's worth noting that many of these controversies were big enough to inspire death threats in the fandom

the 2012 body-swapping modern spin-off featuring Peter Parker's death and Dr Octavius dating Mary Jane in Peter's body left lead writer Dan Slott with a pile of dangerous mail and Stan Lee's confused stamp of approval (he later denied the plot as canon)

but honestly f*ck Dan Slott because anyone who read the damn thing knows it highlighted the gross sex-trickery elements and didn't go the funnier route of making Doc Ock's swap a fish-out-water comedy

I bought that entire series. Love it. Can’t imagine sending death threats. And he didn’t rape her.

 

[Aegon Spengler]

LOL, a still force? This reminds me of Agent Mulder’s Hair’s final thread about why movie is a funny word, because it just describes moving pictures, and I said “I prefer regular photos, or stillies as I call them, because they stay still”. Now you’re telling me there’s a still Force? Does Drax tap into it?

Why did Agent M’s hair get banned? I never saw the thread or what happened