Cuban Boxing Fundamentals

[Ilk]

Don't know dude.
One of this guy's(he's called Alexey Lvovich Frolov according to his site http://boxfr.ru/?page_id=199 ) favorite phrases is "Does it feel comfortable?".
It doesn't seem that comfortable to me. Very interesting style, buts seems difficult to
get the bodymechanics without training under him. Even his own boxers have a hard time
following his instructions and doing the basic punches the way he wants.
The style he teaches seems really focused in bouncing which is pretty labour intensive for a professional boxing match,
but for the amateur circuit or even for a street fight with multiple attackers might be great due to the built in mobility.


@Ilk is the only guy I know in this forum who trains in a similar style and
a lot of the things about the punching technique and footwork he said in the previous pages of the thread
made sense now that I've watched so many videos of Frolov.

I like rising jabs a lot. They are quick and you do not subtle.

I am able to generate a lot of power as well. But I am not boxing anymore. However while weight lifting I am using the same rising technique or willing to use when DLing or squating. What I d like to say is that this may be comfortable movement for me as I have strong and explosive legs and I am able to explode in that way. But that may not be the case with other people.

 

[Sinister]

@Sinister and I do apologize for bothering you, but do you mind me asking some questions regarding this Russian trainer?

I know that you personally feel that a high centre-of-mass is counterproductive when it comes to producing punching power, but do you think that this Russian teacher's "style" of rising up on punches with a focus on using the ankles could provide power? I have personally become a believer of the idea that there is more than one way to any given solution, so I could believe that the "rising up" the Russian coach advocates could lead to an increase in punching power could be legit, but... I could also see that he's relying on the attributes of his pupils to a degree. Even if "rising up" doesn't enhance a fighter's power, someone who naturally punches super hard will still... punch super hard.

Do you mind me asking some of the things you have adapted for yourself? I feel like you and him are both people who ultimately value boxing above anything else, and as a result you'd be willing to learn from him (and him from you). I understand that this question sort of pries into what is effectively your livelihood, so, please feel free to just say "I'm not willing to answer that question".

And, I know this is rather ingratiating, but as I grow, I'm going to look forward to seeing any fighter with the surname "Monda" - I hope your kids become world renowned fighters.

Sorry it took me so long to reply to this. Been very busy as of late.

I don't think the rising generates force. Force tends to be relative to connection to the ground. I don't think he does it for power, but rather sacrifices power for both mobility and what he perceives as a sense of balance. Meaning, if you get hit and moved, you have some position to move to. When you're more rooted, you hit harder, but if you get knocked off-base it's more difficult to recover. At least, that's what I think they think. And yes, reliance on athletic attributes. To an extent.

And yeah, I don't directly say what I'm doing different. But a keen eye can spot some of the things.

Thanks for the last part. As of the moment my eldest Son is the one with the most interest in boxing. Though he is into ANYTHING physical. Boxing, Martial Arts, Parkour, etc. He is a lot like me when I was a kid, only with a Father who actually gives a shit about what he does:





If I require him to fight, it won't be permanently. I just want him to learn HOW to fight for something. He can choose his own path from there. So for all I know he may only do it as long as I require and then go into something else, which is fine. Mike Tyson's daughter Milan is shaping up to be a World Level tennis player. Mike Agassi was a boxer and actually trained his kids, Andre being the best one.

My little Son, he's a total gear-head. All the kid plays with is cars, monster trucks, and motorcycles. It's weird, I wanted to race dirt-bikes when I was a kid, but never had the economic opportunities to have and maintain one. This kid makes little makeshift tracks out of his toys on the patio and rides his bigwheel around it with a racing helmet on. I don't make a ton of money, but their Mom has a very good job and one of the kids I train is actually a small engine mechanic (lawnmowers, generators, motorcycles) and already has a frame. He said he'd build Dorian a go-cart when he's big enough:



Kid's been doing that since he was 2, he's 3 now.

 

[Ilk]

Sin, I have to disagree with you here. If you notice olympic lifters when pulling they use the rising technique to pull more explosively. You can generate a lot of power with it. I however agree that this particular coach uses it for mobility.

I have been coached to jab while rising from a position where I do not have to move and it is a pretty powerful jab.

 

[Sinister]

Sin, I have to disagree with you here. If you notice olympic lifters when pulling they use the rising technique to pull more explosively. You can generate a lot of power with it. I however agree that this particular coach uses it for mobility.

I have been coached to jab while rising from a position where I do not have to move and it is a pretty powerful jab.

I don't think weight lifting is a qualifier for maximum delivery of force for punches. I would have at least used perhaps shotput since the object is moving away from the body as opposed to merely upwards. Any of the throwing Sports.

However, you're free to disagree with me as I'm sure Alexey would. I just feel that when you sit down on your punch, deliver rotational force, it results in a much harder punch. My philosophy is closer to the kind of power used say for arm-wrestling. Hence John Brzenk's ability to overpower a MUCH larger man, note his leg positioning and engagement of posterior chain. The opponent tries to rise up and push down, does him no good. Brzenk only rises at the very end to use his weight to smash the arm:

 

[eternaldarkness]

I don't think weight lifting is a qualifier for maximum delivery of force for punches. I would have at least used perhaps shotput since the object is moving away from the body as opposed to merely upwards. Any of the throwing Sports.

However, you're free to disagree with me as I'm sure Alexey would. I just feel that when you sit down on your punch, deliver rotational force, it results in a much harder punch. My philosophy is closer to the kind of power used say for arm-wrestling. Hence John Brzenk's ability to overpower a MUCH larger man, note his leg positioning and engagement of posterior chain. The opponent tries to rise up and push down, does him no good. Brzenk only rises at the very end to use his weight to smash the arm:

the way i see it power is all about accelerating as much weight through the target as possible. it is extremely hard (impossible) to transfer weight without apply force to the ground, therefore the better your connection with the ground (lower centre of mass) the more force you can generate. the comprise becomes agility, how deep can your stance be and still maintain good movement? that depends on posture and leg strength, tyson could maintain a deep stance and still have amazing agility on the attack, but he had ridiculously strong legs in his youth. most people are better off standing slightly more upright because it's less taxing on the legs.

 

[Sinister]

the way i see it power is all about accelerating as much weight throw the target as possible. it is extremely hard (impossible) to transfer weight without apply force to the ground, therefore the better your connection with the ground (lower centre of mass) the more force you can generate. the comprise becomes agility, how deep your stance can you be and still maintain good movement.

I think you can be very agile with weight low. Just ask the capoeira Angola practitioners. It just requires strengthening muscle systems most people dont think about.

 

[eternaldarkness]

I think you can be very agile with weight low. Just ask the capoeira Angola practitioners. It just requires strengthening muscle systems most people dont think about.

it's amazing how much difference a good stance makes. i did a bit of boxing a while ago and was getting caught with right hands (something that used to be rare) i though it was just slowing with age but on reviewing the footage, it was actually that my legs had got weak and i was standing a lot more upright than i used to and was kinda compensating by bending down with the upper body (very bad), i though to myself "well there's ya problem".
i really understand why you are so adamant about stance and posture. it is the cornerstone of any athletic pursuit, not just boxing.

 

[eternaldarkness]

I think you can be very agile with weight low. Just ask the capoeira Angola practitioners. It just requires strengthening muscle systems most people dont think about.

also what are your thoughts on tall fighters fighting in deep stances/crouching on the back foot. i used to cop a bit of flack over it from people that thought that i should "fight tall" (i'm 6'2), but i was always about hitting with maximum force and also felt much safer from a lower stance.
actually one of my pet hates is fighters standing too upright (here comes the right), that and coaches that teach gluing your hands to your face passes as defence in boxing.
by the way what is with robert easter junior? he looks to have some serious skills, but damn does he fall apart on the inside? or is garcia just that good?

 

[Sinister]

also what are your thoughts on tall fighters fighting in deep stances/crouching on the back foot. i used to cop a bit of flack over it from people that thought that i should "fight tall" (i'm 6'2), but i was always about hitting with maximum force and also felt much safer from a lower stance.
actually one of my pet hates is fighters standing too upright (here comes the right), that and coaches that teach gluing your hands to your face passes as defence in boxing.
by the way what is with robert easter junior? he looks to have some serious skills, but damn does he fall apart on the inside? or is garcia just that good?

Easter is not good inside, and Garcia is that good.

As for fighting "tall," yeah the kid I'm working with from Utah had that same problem. David Price does as well. Hes SO tall hes not being encouraged at all to bend his knees and meet his opposition shoulder to shoulder. This would maximize his reach advantage by allowing him to not have to reach down to punch. The real art of fighting "tall" is knowing how to fight "long." The legendary Bob Foster was excellent at this:

 

[eternaldarkness]

Easter is not good inside, and Garcia is that good.

As for fighting "tall," yeah the kid I'm working with from Utah had that same problem. David Price does as well. Hes SO tall hes not being encouraged at all to bend his knees and meet his opposition shoulder to shoulder. This would maximize his reach advantage by allowing him to not have to reach down to punch. The real art of fighting "tall" is knowing how to fight "long." The legendary Bob Foster was excellent at this:

funny you mention foster, he is one of my favourites. thanks for the reply.

 

[Ilk]

I don't think weight lifting is a qualifier for maximum delivery of force for punches. I would have at least used perhaps shotput since the object is moving away from the body as opposed to merely upwards. Any of the throwing Sports.

However, you're free to disagree with me as I'm sure Alexey would. I just feel that when you sit down on your punch, deliver rotational force, it results in a much harder punch. My philosophy is closer to the kind of power used say for arm-wrestling. Hence John Brzenk's ability to overpower a MUCH larger man, note his leg positioning and engagement of posterior chain. The opponent tries to rise up and push down, does him no good. Brzenk only rises at the very end to use his weight to smash the arm:

I was not arguing which punching technique would deliver a stronger punch. I was saying you can deliver a strong punch with rising up and giving an example for exploding while pulling in olympic lifting. I mean if lifters are able to pull 150 kg using the rise up techniqe one should be able to deliver a strong punch with it.

Not in an argument which punch is stronger. Only in a statement that you can punch hard while rising up. You are way more experienced in boxing and you are coaching, so no point to argue with you. To be honest I trust your opinion. I was just trying to expand on an idea.

Btw interesting topic change on elevation. I am a big fan of your positioning threads but I could not understand the elevation one. And btw while boxing I had biggest improvements after reading these threads. It just all made sense. Best improvement my countering with left hand became way better, just by pointing it as a gun/knife and people became aware I can counter with my left and were much more cautious. From there a whole new world with posibilities became available.

 

[Sinister]

I was not arguing which punching technique would deliver a stronger punch. I was saying you can deliver a strong punch with rising up and giving an example for exploding while pulling in olympic lifting. I mean if lifters are able to pull 150 kg using the rise up techniqe one should be able to deliver a strong punch with it.

Not in an argument which punch is stronger. Only in a statement that you can punch hard while rising up. You are way more experienced in boxing and you are coaching, so no point to argue with you. To be honest I trust your opinion. I was just trying to expand on an idea.

Btw interesting topic change on elevation. I am a big fan of your positioning threads but I could not understand the elevation one. And btw while boxing I had biggest improvements after reading these threads. It just all made sense. Best improvement my countering with left hand became way better, just by pointing it as a gun/knife and people became aware I can counter with my left and were much more cautious. From there a whole new world with posibilities became available.

I understood your point. I was actually trying to help you make more sense of the notion. With weight lifting the weight is pushed or pulled in a straight line in the vacinity of the body. With punching, the motion is made away from the body. Thus, shotput is a better example:



But anyhow, revive the positioning thread and point out the discrepancy. I'll address it.

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

I think you can be very agile with weight low. Just ask the capoeira Angola practitioners. It just requires strengthening muscle systems most people dont think about.

As far as Strength work - I barely did or do any weight training.

What do you think about Isometric holds, medicine ball work (throws)?

Spoiler

I pretty much only do Marv Marinovich's ProBodX stuff (Nick Curson), as well as various cardio (running, rowing, skierg) routines (some plyometric stuff as well). Occasionally I'll do a dumbbell complexas a finisher after a cardio workout.

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

@Sinister

This is the stuff I mean

I'll put it in spoilers as there are a few clips

Spoiler

^^^I remember seeing Kostya doing something similar years back









Example of Iso holds ^^^^^^^^

Sorry for the over kill but that is just some of the examples I think translate to punching power much more than traditional weight lifting.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Sinister]

Most of that stuff is whack. Sorry.

You're not wrong about the motions, but that kinda crap is designed to look inventive, but it's mostly fluff.

Bungee chords and beach balls.

My YouTube channel has conditioning workouts done by my experienced fighters. Tried and true results, and many of them having gone from fat, to fit, to able to fight

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

The X-factor for the U.K. is that Europe as a whole is in the midst of a boxing Renaissance. It's popular, there's demand. Because of that there's going to be emphasis on trainers actually knowing what the fuck they're doing. The cream rises to the top.

Its not so in the U.S.

Meanwhile Canelo is altering Mexican boxing as well. He's one of the first guys who definitively fights like an American. I'm seeing more fighters out of Mexico with boxer/puncher styles.

Do all countries box the same in North America, except perhaps random regionalities?

Is there for example a difference between a Montreal boxer and an LA boxer?

 

[Sinister]

Yeah but it's tough to describe the differences and I haven't had the time to sit down and think about it from the perspectice of attempting to identify the nuances

 

[zapataxiv]

Most of that stuff is whack. Sorry.

You're not wrong about the motions, but that kinda crap is designed to look inventive, but it's mostly fluff.

Bungee chords and beach balls.

My YouTube channel has conditioning workouts done by my experienced fighters. Tried and true results, and many of them having gone from fat, to fit, to able to fight

You got anybody working with you that could or is interested in uploading videos to Youku? I don’t have YouTube access over here

@Sinister

This is the stuff I mean

I'll put it in spoilers as there are a few clips

Spoiler

^^^I remember seeing Kostya doing something similar years back









Example of Iso holds ^^^^^^^^

Sorry for the over kill but that is just some of the examples I think translate to punching power much more than traditional weight lifting.

Just my 2 cents.

I roll my eyes a little at a lot of those types of exercises. While there is benefit to training specific movements, there is also a whole notion of throwing out the baby with the bath water. What I mean is people say things like deadlifting, pressing, and squatting to depth (as well as cleans and snatches to a much lesser extent) are useless or even counterintuitive to a boxer. While I don’t know which lifts do the most to building the most about producing harder punches there are many other benefits to proper weightlifting.
Mainly doing a strength training program or learning how to do only lifts will make you a better athlete which is a benefit. Secondly learning how to do all the lifts especially only lifts will help you to learn about posture and mobility and help to increase strength all over your body which helps lead to injury prevention, and will help you to be able to do the required motions in boxing.
For example maybe you have a guy who wants to hit harder. So he thinks get a bungee cord and do a round of 1-2s with the bungee. Really said fighter probably has deeper problems structurally and his body when unable to properly transfer weight and force or maintain stance compensates by cheating in movements. This type of slip ups get more common the more tired you become and the more exhausted you get. So by actually lifting and strengthening your hips and legs and getting used to breaking your hips and deep stances etc becomes easier to keep and will translate better to consistent heavy punching. It will also help with taking punch as when people get tired they usually start dropping their hands. But more importantly they stand up straighter keep their chins tucked less and become more likely to be in a bad position to receive a punch.
So a lot of these calisthenics dudes kind of misdiagnose their own weaknesses and then end up shooting themselves in foot.

Also just adding an addendum but just lifting won’t teach how to stand move or punch obviously, but the athletic background will be a benefit if you bring it to proper training and coaching.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Yeah but it's tough to describe the differences and I haven't had the time to sit down and think about it from the perspectice of attempting to identify the nuances

Well if ever you feel like giving it a go, I would very much like to know the differences between Montréal boxing and American boxing, since I come from Montréal.

Boxing is traditionally pretty huge in MTL and I assume that it is mostly standard American style.

Oh and BTW this thread is one of the best threads I have ever read here and this forum is lucky to have you Sinister.

 

[SandisLL]

Well if ever you feel like giving it a go, I would very much like to know the differences between Montréal boxing and American boxing, since I come from Montréal.

Boxing is traditionally pretty huge in MTL and I assume that it is mostly standard American style.

U.S as also U.K, Ireland are with deep boxing traditions, there isn't only one style.
F.e as I saw and read, some from old european, some from more modern europe, cuban, peek a bo, mexican and mixes from them etc.
Boxe is so deep Art, that to truly understood basics takes 10 years or more.
Mexican and peek a boo I don't understand, how it work.
Sinister knows about U.S scene and about boxe in general 1000 folds more than I know.