International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war. Vol. II

[terrapin]

But you haven't addressed the point that Hamas still wants Israel wiped off the map. They don't want a peaceful, 2 state solution. They'd undoubtedly make things LESS secure if this was proposed. Israel isn't going to ascribe to something that puts its people MORE at risk.

I prefer if you could answer me if you've seen even one serious scholar make a different argument. I'm not asking as it gotcha and if you haven't it's okay. I'm genuinely interested and would watch or read it.

The reason I've come to the conclusion I have is because I only hear b******* arguments from that side and nothing solid.

I admit rooting out jamas is a problem and I would guess it needs to be done first as or as part of the process and deal frankly, which is why I have no problem with Israel wiping those f****** out. They have to go, but I seriously doubt that that extreme of a group of people would have been voted into power if Israel was not stepping on the necks of the Palestinians all these years and if Israel had not become more and more extreme and realistic.

Biden has all the power and could easily bring netanyahu to heel. Then you just bring in the best minds you bring in the Palestinians themselves and everyone else and work something out.

There's no way what I'm proposing could possibly be less effective than what we've been doing. Incidentally, as someone who believes in god it is also the right thing to do and I think there's power behind doing the right thing.

 

[shockaholic12]

Yeah, sure...

Israel would be just fine, if they would just lay down their weapons and stop attacking people who want them wiped off the face of the Earth. There is only a religious extremist element within ISLAM, because they are being "oppressed" by Israel. Okay...

Where do you guys get this shit?

please list all the Islamic nations attacking Israel who aren’t being occupied by them.

 

[Blayt7hh]

I think they should finish getting vengeance out of their system and then do a thorough inventory of all the dishonest and atrocious things they have done since world war II to the Palestinians... make amends for all of that give any and all lands back that they have stolen and start from there with a two state solution. There is probably a way to work has out of power while offering a two states sollution also.

If I was biden all funding for Israel would be cut until that was done.

Like I said this this isn’t about getting revenge, it’s about getting rid of Hamas so that they can’t do this again.

As far as the future is concerned I don’t have a lot of hope for a successful resolution. They’ve had agreed upon solutions before that failed and it usually wasn’t Israel’s fault. I feel like you believe that Israel is the only villain here and that’s definitely not the case

 

[mkess101]

Hamas came to power because occupation breeds terrorism. Relax the occupation and hamas loses support.

In part, sure. But while they are still terrorists, they are terrorists that control the region and run the de facto government. "Support" is irrelevant for the most part now. They aren't holding free elections LOL. They are the law within those walls, if any Palestinians oppose them they are killed.

They hold (relative) power, and those who have it aren't going to give it up freely when driven by fanatical religious ideology.

 

[Natural Order]

I have never heard a decent argument for going further back than that from anybody who's serious.

I asked you if you have? Could you link some? because I really don't know of any. I mean that.. I've tried to look.

Just this week I listened to a woman scholar make the case for Israel and I really was prepared to hear her but she didn't make a single, decent argument. She mostly just appealed to the fact that it was the Jewish peoples land way back in biblical times and even dared to state that there was nothing wrong with taking land from the Palestinians because they weren't a nation!!! As if living on the land itself is not a claim for the land unless you are a nation!!

To be honest man, I think most people use that as an argument to obfuscate the fact that they don't want to draw serious lines, not because they actually believe there's debate about where to draw or when to draw them from.

Biden has really lost an opportunity here to solve a major conflict.

I mean, you're looking for a legit source on the Promised Land? Your entire founding book has it right there bud!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promised_Land

 

[HereticBD]

please list all the Islamic nations attacking Israel who aren’t being occupied by them.

Because they're not in that position, duh.

Tell me what would happen to Israel is they didn't hold their land by extreme force? They all gonna get along are they? LOL.

 

[shockaholic12]

In part, sure. But while they are still terrorists, they are terrorists that control the region and run the de facto government. "Support" is irrelevant for the most part now. They aren't holding free elections LOL. They are the law within those walls, if any Palestinians oppose them they are killed.

They hold (relative) power, and those who have it aren't going to give it up freely when driven by fanatical religious ideology.

Like it took time under occupation for them to come to power it will take time free of occupation to oust them from power. No one said it would be done in a week. But the current approach is a guarantee to keep them in power and raise the next generation to support them.

 

[shockaholic12]

Because they're not in that position, duh.

Tell me what would happen to Israel is they didn't hold their land by extreme force? They all gonna get along are they? LOL.

So the only Islamic nation in the world attacking Israel is the one it’s occupying but your argument is occupation isn’t the reason for the attacks and Islam is. Big Derp.

 

[Blayt7hh]

Stop indiscriminately bombing the entire region, cutting off water and food supplies to civilians. Start there.

Stop initiating a doctrine that targets civilian infrastructure.

How does that get rid of Hamas? I said real practical solutions for killing an enemy that hides among to populace.

I’ll give you a hint as to why you can’t come up with one- because there is no way to do it without a lot of collateral damage. So really all you are saying is you want Israel to just take this one on the chin and leave themselves completely vulnerable for repeats. That is to say you have no solution that is acceptable.

 

[shockaholic12]

How does that get rid of Hamas? I said real practical solutions for killing an enemy that hides among to populace.

I’ll give you a hint as to why you can’t come up with one- because there is no way to do it without a lot of collateral damage. So really all you are saying is you want Israel to just take this one on the chin and leave themselves completely vulnerable for repeats. That is to say you have no solution that is acceptable.

And the current solution is guaranteed to inspire another generation of Hamas.

 

[Culombo]

both sides are committing heinous acts .. difference is israel has the capability to strike back 1000x harder and they control everything .. it's a no win situation .. israel isn't going anywhere but their neighbors want them extinguished .. so this is going to keep happening like a vicious cycle

 

[mkess101]

Like it took time under occupation for them to come to power it will take time free of occupation to oust them from power. No one said it would be done in a week. But the current approach is a guarantee to keep them in power and raise the next generation to support them.

The problem with this logic is that Israel's first obligation is to the security of its own people. They failed on that recently and are now about quickly wiping out the main threat. Not about a long term, slow "solution", the type of which have been highjacked in the past by neighboring nations and groups similar to Hamas. Not that the current regime in charge in Israel would necessarily be all that interested even under better circumstances, but expecting even the general populace to be concerned with anything other than taking out Hamas is a pretty big ask.

"It will take time" isn't something Israelis are all to interested in right now. They can't reasonably look at Palestine and say "If we start rolling back the settlements and making concessions, maybe in 20 or 30 or 40 years Hamas will have been weakened to the point of not attacking us..."

 

[shockaholic12]

The problem with this logic is that Israel's first obligation is to the security of its own people. They failed on that recently and are now about quickly wiping out the main threat. Not about a long term, slow "solution", the type of which have been highjacked in the past by neighboring nations and groups similar to Hamas. Not that the current regime in charge in Israel would necessarily be all that interested even under better circumstances, but expecting even the general populace to be concerned with anything other than taking out Hamas is a pretty big ask.

"It will take time" isn't something Israelis are all to interested in right now. They can't reasonably look at Palestine and say "If we start rolling back the settlements and making concessions, maybe in 20 or 30 or 40 years Hamas will have been weakened to the point of not attacking us..."

“Taking out Hamas” will be as successful as taking out ISIS. It will be an utter failure. The attempt to do so will just inspire another generation of militants, as Israel’s approach for decades has. Israel’s primary concern is clearly taking land, not protecting people.

 

[mkess101]

So the only Islamic nation in the world attacking Israel is the one it’s occupying but your argument is occupation isn’t the reason for the attacks and Islam is. Big Derp.

Iran, Lebanon, and Syria are by proxy, anyone who would deny that is living in a fantasy world.

 

[shockaholic12]

Iran, Lebanon, and Syria are by proxy, anyone who would deny that is living in a fantasy world.

The proxy being the nation being occupied. It all goes back to occupation.

 

[mkess101]

“Taking out Hamas” will be as successful as taking out ISIS. It will be an utter failure. The attempt to do so will just inspire another generation of militants, as Israel’s approach for decades has. Israel’s primary concern is clearly taking land, not protecting people.

Hasn't the capabilities of ISIS been greatly reduced?

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

You'd be surprised.

https://www.courthousenews.com/putin-blames-nato-for-pushing-russia-into-invasion/

The whole lie was that if Ukraine joined NATO, they would pose a major threat to Russia and Russia had no choice but to "defend it's borders".

The reality was, if Ukraine joined NATO Putin would never again be able to subjugate the nation as one of it's subservient satellite states and he couldn't bear it. It hurt his pride.

While the angst in Russian-speaking Ukraine was real, Russia was extremely antagonistic throughout sending in soldiers without banners and thinking that would somehow fool anyone.

'Angst' lol. You're such a hack.

 

[mkess101]

The proxy being the nation being occupied. It all goes back to occupation.

Israel occupies Lebanon? Because that's where Hezbollah is based out of. They even have a political presence there.

 

[terrapin]

Like I said this this isn’t about getting revenge, it’s about getting rid of Hamas so that they can’t do this again.

As far as the future is concerned I don’t have a lot of hope for a successful resolution. They’ve had agreed upon solutions before that failed and it usually wasn’t Israel’s fault. I feel like you believe that Israel is the only villain here and that’s definitely not the case

There are two villains but Israel is the primary aggressor here with all the power and money and stuff to give back.

 

[HereticBD]

So the only Islamic nation in the world attacking Israel is the one it’s occupying but your argument is occupation isn’t the reason for the attacks and Islam is. Big Derp.

Riiight, because the second Israel stops defending itself from a hostile nation, everything will be peachy, right?

Is all the other perpetual violence going on in Islamic nations, because of "occupation of lands by those damn Jews"? That's the key, is it? Just let Islam be, and they will do the same?