Social Hondurans vs Haitians, the underlying causes of xenophobia.

[Barbas619]

Im really bad at making threads but this is an interesting event.

Since the caravan was announced until they reached TJ mexicans have gone from "Welcome latinamerican brothers" to "Mexico first, get the fuck out".

It would be a very long thread to post all the things that the Hondurans have done or allegedly done to make Mexicans feel that these individuals should be kicked out, but overall it seems that the public opinion is incredibly against them.

The reason why i made this thread however is because its not the first wave that crashed at the northern border after America tightened its security up, the first wave was Haitians, and about 5,000 or more were stranded in northern Mexico.

These people however were seen first as a potential burden, but in 2 years Haitians have become an example of a polite, well mannered, hard working people, to a point where they gained the respect of the Mexican people and nobody wants them gone.

I made this thread after i found an overwhelmingly positive facebook post comparing Hondurans to Haitians.

Spoiler

¿Alguien recuerda cómo llegaron los haitianos a Tijuana?
Llegaron asustados, tristes, llegaron pidiendo asilo, llegaron pidiendo caridad, no exigían nada, ellos rogaban un trabajo, ellos pedían humanidad.

Does someone remembers when Haitians came to Tijuana?
They came scared, sad, asking for asylum, asking for help, they didnt demanded anything, they begged for a job, they wanted human solidarity.

Tenían cargando grandes pesares sobre su espalda, el más grande de todos es que lo habían perdido TODO, incluso a su familia, aún así nunca pensaron en sentarse a descansar, le hicieron frentea la situación que tenían, y no la pensaron dos veces para vender en un semáforo, lavar platos en el puesto de carnitas, vender chicles, barrer calles... Y no dudes que alguno de ellos tuviera un doctorado o que fuese algún ingeniero en su natal Haití, aunque aquí ese papel no le sirvió de nada pues al igual que un indigente le tocó dormir en el pasto de palacio de gobierno, debajo de un puente o en la banqueta de algún establecimiento.

They came with great burdens, the biggest one was losing everything back home, even family, yet they didnt sit down to rest, and didnt thought it twice to sell (wares) at the stoplights, wash dishes at the carnitas stand, sell gums, sweet streets... and dont doubt that some of them may have had an higher education or was an engineer back at Haiti, but that degree didnt helped him here, they had to sleep in the streets like a homeless individual.

ELLOS JAMÁS se quejaron del trabajo que tuvieron que hacer, por el contrario miraban ésto como una oportunidad de oro, y la tomaban sin pensarlo, como si no se les fuera a presentar de nuevo, su intención no era invadir ni quitarle nada a nadie, su único propósito era sobrevivir.

They never complained about work, instead they saw work as a golden opportunity and took jobs without thinking, as if that was a one in a lifetime chance, their intention wasnt to invade or take from people, their purpose was to survive.

No se puede llegar con una una persona y exigirle caridad hacia ti
y mucho menos a un Mexicano, oye, es como ir al mandado y exigir que te regalen el litro de leche sólo porque no tienes ni un peso.

You cant go up to a person and demand charity, and even less a Mexican, its like going to the store and asking for a free liter of milk, just because you are broke.

El Mexicano es solidario, y la razón mas grande es que tú "Migrante" ya estás aquí, pero tampoco es tonto, como lo creen algunos países de por ahí... ¿Verdad que sí?.

Mexicans are solidary, and the biggest proof is that you are here, but he isnt dumb, like you guys think.

So i think xenophobia isnt necesarily about race or culture, and its more about people sharing your values.

Prior to the Haitian wave was the Iraqi wave. I remember seeing them coming in through TJ with Louis Vuitton luggage and dressed better than I was.

Anyway, I’m hoping Haitians adopt to U.S. culture as well as they appear to be adopting to Mexican culture. Problem is, many of the younger Haitians who set foot in the U.S. will ultimately succumb to joining black gangs as a result of the culture shock they experience upon arrival.

Haitians speak Spanish, so it’s no wonder they’re acclimating we’ll in Mexico.

 

[Rod1]

Why are latin americans so violent, we even put africans to shame. Do not say inequality, I want creative answers involving indigenous human sacrifices and genocidal conquistadores. The two most violent cultures of the time mixed.

Well, civilizations that did mass scale sacrifices folded relatively quickly after conquest, while less "advanced" civilizations that didnt developed a complex religion were far harder to pacify.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chichimeca_War

I dont think its inequality as much as lack of governance couple that with the civil wars and the drug wars and you may get a picture.

Mexico wasnt that violent until the drug war started.

Argentina, Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, among the larger nations have low murder rates. In Mexico murders are concentrated in a few select cities while overall the country is relatively peaceful.

Africa is also pretty violent when there is weak governance, the average simply falls down due to the super authoritarian countries.

 

[Rod1]

Prior to the Haitian wave was the Iraqi wave. I remember seeing them coming in through TJ with Louis Vuitton luggage and dressed better than I was.

Anyway, I’m hoping Haitians adopt to U.S. culture as well as they appear to be adopting to Mexican culture. Problem is, many of the younger Haitians who set foot in the U.S. will ultimately succumb to joining black gangs as a result of the culture shock they experience upon arrival.

Haitians speak Spanish, so it’s no wonder they’re acclimating we’ll in Mexico.

Haitians speak French though.

 

[Rod1]

Reasons might be related to the kind of people that is migrating. Venezuelans are the bottom of their society, while the Haitians were poor because everybody is poor there but were from moderately well educated segment of the population. Although from all my friends that served there they're a very violent and weird people, they eat mud and rape and child abuse are rampant.

Yes, this has a lot to do with it, Haitians that manage to leave the island are likely to be smarter and better educated due to the effort needed to do so, while DR probably gets the dregs of society.

 

[Barbas619]

Haitians speak French though.

You’re absolutely right. However, communicating with them in Spanish is somewhat of an easy transition.

Almost like speaking Spanish with a Portuguese person.

 

[Hollywood Jack]

Im really bad at making threads but this is an interesting event.

Since the caravan was announced until they reached TJ mexicans have gone from "Welcome latinamerican brothers" to "Mexico first, get the fuck out".

It would be a very long thread to post all the things that the Hondurans have done or allegedly done to make Mexicans feel that these individuals should be kicked out, but overall it seems that the public opinion is incredibly against them.

The reason why i made this thread however is because its not the first wave that crashed at the northern border after America tightened its security up, the first wave was Haitians, and about 5,000 or more were stranded in northern Mexico.

These people however were seen first as a potential burden, but in 2 years Haitians have become an example of a polite, well mannered, hard working people, to a point where they gained the respect of the Mexican people and nobody wants them gone.

I made this thread after i found an overwhelmingly positive facebook post comparing Hondurans to Haitians.

Spoiler

¿Alguien recuerda cómo llegaron los haitianos a Tijuana?
Llegaron asustados, tristes, llegaron pidiendo asilo, llegaron pidiendo caridad, no exigían nada, ellos rogaban un trabajo, ellos pedían humanidad.

Does someone remembers when Haitians came to Tijuana?
They came scared, sad, asking for asylum, asking for help, they didnt demanded anything, they begged for a job, they wanted human solidarity.

Tenían cargando grandes pesares sobre su espalda, el más grande de todos es que lo habían perdido TODO, incluso a su familia, aún así nunca pensaron en sentarse a descansar, le hicieron frentea la situación que tenían, y no la pensaron dos veces para vender en un semáforo, lavar platos en el puesto de carnitas, vender chicles, barrer calles... Y no dudes que alguno de ellos tuviera un doctorado o que fuese algún ingeniero en su natal Haití, aunque aquí ese papel no le sirvió de nada pues al igual que un indigente le tocó dormir en el pasto de palacio de gobierno, debajo de un puente o en la banqueta de algún establecimiento.

They came with great burdens, the biggest one was losing everything back home, even family, yet they didnt sit down to rest, and didnt thought it twice to sell (wares) at the stoplights, wash dishes at the carnitas stand, sell gums, sweet streets... and dont doubt that some of them may have had an higher education or was an engineer back at Haiti, but that degree didnt helped him here, they had to sleep in the streets like a homeless individual.

ELLOS JAMÁS se quejaron del trabajo que tuvieron que hacer, por el contrario miraban ésto como una oportunidad de oro, y la tomaban sin pensarlo, como si no se les fuera a presentar de nuevo, su intención no era invadir ni quitarle nada a nadie, su único propósito era sobrevivir.

They never complained about work, instead they saw work as a golden opportunity and took jobs without thinking, as if that was a one in a lifetime chance, their intention wasnt to invade or take from people, their purpose was to survive.

No se puede llegar con una una persona y exigirle caridad hacia ti
y mucho menos a un Mexicano, oye, es como ir al mandado y exigir que te regalen el litro de leche sólo porque no tienes ni un peso.

You cant go up to a person and demand charity, and even less a Mexican, its like going to the store and asking for a free liter of milk, just because you are broke.

El Mexicano es solidario, y la razón mas grande es que tú "Migrante" ya estás aquí, pero tampoco es tonto, como lo creen algunos países de por ahí... ¿Verdad que sí?.

Mexicans are solidary, and the biggest proof is that you are here, but he isnt dumb, like you guys think.

So i think xenophobia isnt necesarily about race or culture, and its more about people sharing your values.

It's interesting that Mexicans in Mexico get along well with Haitian immigrants, since people of Mexican descent in California have a notoriously bad relationship with the black population there. But then again, other Mexican populations in the US, like in Texas, have a good relationship with blacks. Funny how that goes.

 

[cincymma79]

Don’t storm the border
Nobody particularly cares about one or two people coming up and asking to come in a group of 1000 waiving Honduran flags and shit like that turns people off immediately

 

[ObamaPhoneLady]

Im really bad at making threads but this is an interesting event.

Since the caravan was announced until they reached TJ mexicans have gone from "Welcome latinamerican brothers" to "Mexico first, get the fuck out".

It would be a very long thread to post all the things that the Hondurans have done or allegedly done to make Mexicans feel that these individuals should be kicked out, but overall it seems that the public opinion is incredibly against them.

The reason why i made this thread however is because its not the first wave that crashed at the northern border after America tightened its security up, the first wave was Haitians, and about 5,000 or more were stranded in northern Mexico.

These people however were seen first as a potential burden, but in 2 years Haitians have become an example of a polite, well mannered, hard working people, to a point where they gained the respect of the Mexican people and nobody wants them gone.

I made this thread after i found an overwhelmingly positive facebook post comparing Hondurans to Haitians.

Spoiler

¿Alguien recuerda cómo llegaron los haitianos a Tijuana?
Llegaron asustados, tristes, llegaron pidiendo asilo, llegaron pidiendo caridad, no exigían nada, ellos rogaban un trabajo, ellos pedían humanidad.

Does someone remembers when Haitians came to Tijuana?
They came scared, sad, asking for asylum, asking for help, they didnt demanded anything, they begged for a job, they wanted human solidarity.

Tenían cargando grandes pesares sobre su espalda, el más grande de todos es que lo habían perdido TODO, incluso a su familia, aún así nunca pensaron en sentarse a descansar, le hicieron frentea la situación que tenían, y no la pensaron dos veces para vender en un semáforo, lavar platos en el puesto de carnitas, vender chicles, barrer calles... Y no dudes que alguno de ellos tuviera un doctorado o que fuese algún ingeniero en su natal Haití, aunque aquí ese papel no le sirvió de nada pues al igual que un indigente le tocó dormir en el pasto de palacio de gobierno, debajo de un puente o en la banqueta de algún establecimiento.

They came with great burdens, the biggest one was losing everything back home, even family, yet they didnt sit down to rest, and didnt thought it twice to sell (wares) at the stoplights, wash dishes at the carnitas stand, sell gums, sweet streets... and dont doubt that some of them may have had an higher education or was an engineer back at Haiti, but that degree didnt helped him here, they had to sleep in the streets like a homeless individual.

ELLOS JAMÁS se quejaron del trabajo que tuvieron que hacer, por el contrario miraban ésto como una oportunidad de oro, y la tomaban sin pensarlo, como si no se les fuera a presentar de nuevo, su intención no era invadir ni quitarle nada a nadie, su único propósito era sobrevivir.

They never complained about work, instead they saw work as a golden opportunity and took jobs without thinking, as if that was a one in a lifetime chance, their intention wasnt to invade or take from people, their purpose was to survive.

No se puede llegar con una una persona y exigirle caridad hacia ti
y mucho menos a un Mexicano, oye, es como ir al mandado y exigir que te regalen el litro de leche sólo porque no tienes ni un peso.

You cant go up to a person and demand charity, and even less a Mexican, its like going to the store and asking for a free liter of milk, just because you are broke.

El Mexicano es solidario, y la razón mas grande es que tú "Migrante" ya estás aquí, pero tampoco es tonto, como lo creen algunos países de por ahí... ¿Verdad que sí?.

Mexicans are solidary, and the biggest proof is that you are here, but he isnt dumb, like you guys think.

So i think xenophobia isnt necesarily about race or culture, and its more about people sharing your values.

It's not xenophobia to recognize that letting in thousands of people who admittedly hate you and everything your country stands for is a bad idea.

 

[Hollywood Jack]

Haitians speak French though.

It's fairly common for Haitians to speak Spanish, especially the ones who lived in DR or near the border, and they can pick up Spanish quickly. I went to a high school with large immigrant populations, including Haitian, Brazilian, Salvadoran, Dominican. I remember that some of the Haitians could speak Spanish, some of them spoke 4 languages (Creole, French, English, Spanish). They certainly spoke more Spanish than the other non-Hispanic black groups. Unfortunately, it's hard to get statistics on the percentage of speakers of any language there besides French and Creole, but it's also known that Haitians speak Spanish and English as secondary languages. There are also many people of Haitian descent who lived in the DR for quite some time, including ones born there, and then were expelled. It's estimated that there are 1 million people of Haitian descent there.

 

[Andy Capp]

I did not read all of your links, but I did read the article from NBC News. It doesn't support your claims at all. It did not state that this policy reduced the rate of immigration at all, but simply restricted a path to citizenship for immigrants who come to the US and jump onto welfare. Immigration =/= naturalization. In the context of @Rod1 's thread, hard work and self-sufficiency is what gained Haitian immigrants respect in Mexico. I'm assuming the point of the new legislation is to provide an incentive from relying on public charity as well.

Do any of your links provide data suggesting that the point of Trump's policy is to reduce immigration or that immigration rates have dropped as a result of the enactment of this policy?

"Yet newly released government data show that so far in 2018, the Trump administration is denying applications submitted to the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services at a rate 37 percent higher than the Obama administration did in 2016."

Last year, the Trump administration increased the length of immigration applications by double, triple or even more, making them more time-consuming and complicated than ever. This made mistakes far more likely. This year, it also made it easier to deny applicants outright without giving them an opportunity to submit clarifying information. The agency has also made moves to police caseworkers who may be, in its view, too lenient.

Mr. Trump’s political appointees to the D.H.S. have also seized on his rhetorical attacks on immigrants, as well as executive orders like the “Buy American and Hire American” order and another mandating extensive vetting of foreigners, as a justification for a crackdown on legal immigration.

As a result of all this, total immigration to the United States has declinedunder President Trump, and fewer foreign travelers have been entering the country. These trends are surprising, because the economies of the United States and almost all other countries are growing, which usually generates more travel and immigration. The best explanation for this discrepancy is that the president’s policies are having their intended effect: reducing legal immigration to this country.

This is happening at a time when there are more job openings than job seekers in the United States. This month, Federal Reserve Chairman Jay Powell stated that fewer immigrants and foreign workers would slow economic growth by limiting the ability of businesses to expand.

On some level, President Trump appears to understand this reality, but his policies are making the situation worse.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

"Yet newly released government data show that so far in 2018, the Trump administration is denying applications submitted to the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services at a rate 37 percent higher than the Obama administration did in 2016."

OK. Does that data show that Trump's administration is refusing applications from Mexicans at a higher rate? Because the core claim I am contesting is that Trump's administration is fear-mongering toward Mexicans in general rather than against illegal Mexican immigrants.

If Trump's immigration plan is aimed at reducing Mexican immigration as a percentage of US immigration, I 'd think it is very stupid. But while I'm hearing he hates Mexicans I'm not seeing it reflected in his immigration policy. I'd much prefer more Mexican immigrants to the US than allow a bunch of folks from North Africa, or central America, or central Asia into the country. So far in 2016-17 immigration numbers have been very consistent with where they've been for a decade, which is a very high rate of between 1 and 1.1 million annually.

What do you think is the best number of immigrants to be allowed into the US annually?

 

[Andy Capp]

OK. Does that data show that Trump's administration is refusing applications from Mexicans at a higher rate? Because the core claim I am contesting is that Trump's administration is fear-mongering toward Mexicans in general rather than against illegal Mexican immigrants.

If Trump's immigration plan is aimed at reducing Mexican immigration as a percentage of US immigration, I 'd think it is very stupid. But while I'm hearing he hates Mexicans I'm not seeing it reflected in his immigration policy. I'd much prefer more Mexican immigrants to the US than allow a bunch of folks from North Africa, or central America, or central Asia into the country. So far in 2016-17 immigration numbers have been very consistent with where they've been for a decade, which is a very high rate of between 1 and 1.1 million annually.

What do you think is the best number of immigrants to be allowed into the US annually?

Really? Because I thought the core claim was "he absolutely and unequivocally has scaled down legal immigration and restricted path to citizenship - drastically." And the evidence shows this is correct.

 

[Cajun]

I don't think there's a very good case for this. Americans overwhelmingly opposed granting refuge to European Jews during the Holocaust. Likewise, we've seen an entire half of the country mobilized on scapegoating of Mexican illegal immigrants. Those are two groups with values that are incredible similar to those of white/conservative America. Mexicans have not only been a model minority group: they've deeply penetrated American culture. I think the successful fearmongering about Mexicans in the US kind of nixed your argument about the logic of xenophobia.

Would agree concerning his point of xenophobia related to values. It is more to do with economics, crime etc. Costa Ricans def dont like Guatemalans in their country. Would say that any country that is taking on the impoverished from another will receive some backlash. Same with Haitians and Dominican Republic. Mexico indeed does try and block countries like Guatemala from flooding their country. I believe Mexico has been somewhat hypocritical. They want their poor moving to the US and do not want poor from other central american countries. But they play it all up as the US being unwelcoming... Its a win win for them.

 

[Rod1]

Would agree concerning his point of xenophobia related to values. It is more to do with economics, crime etc. Costa Ricans def dont like Guatemalans in their country. Would say that any country that is taking on the impoverished from another will receive some backlash. Same with Haitians and Dominican Republic. Mexico indeed does try and block countries like Guatemala from flooding their country. I believe Mexico has been somewhat hypocritical. They want their poor moving to the US and do not want poor from other central american countries. But they play it all up as the US being unwelcoming... Its a win win for them.

Mexico only moves to block southern countries in order to wage the US proxy war on drugs. We didnt blocked immigrants until Obama wanted Mexico to stop the 2014 immigrant wave.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

Well, civilizations that did mass scale sacrifices folded relatively quickly after conquest, while less "advanced" civilizations that didnt developed a complex religion were far harder to pacify.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chichimeca_War

I dont think its inequality as much as lack of governance couple that with the civil wars and the drug wars and you may get a picture.

Mexico wasnt that violent until the drug war started.

Argentina, Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, among the larger nations have low murder rates. In Mexico murders are concentrated in a few select cities while overall the country is relatively peaceful.

Africa is also pretty violent when there is weak governance, the average simply falls down due to the super authoritarian countries.

Venezuela, Brazil, Central America push the average up by a lot. It's ridiculous how violent Venezuela is.

 

[Cajun]

Mexico only moves to block southern countries in order to wage the US proxy war on drugs. We didnt blocked immigrants until Obama wanted Mexico to stop the 2014 immigrant wave.

Fair enough. I don't know that Guatemalans for the most part are involved in the drug trade. Though I could be Wrong. I do know Guatemalans are not very welcome in most of their neighboring countries. There are very few countries that welcome impoverished immigrants in Central America.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Really? Because I thought the core claim was "he absolutely and unequivocally has scaled down legal immigration and restricted path to citizenship - drastically." And the evidence shows this is correct.

You can discuss whatever you'd like. I was obviously addressing this:

Likewise, we've seen an entire half of the country mobilized on scapegoating of Mexican illegal immigrants. Those are two groups with values that are incredible similar to those of white/conservative America. Mexicans have not only been a model minority group: they've deeply penetrated American culture. I think the successful fearmongering about Mexicans in the US kind of nixed your argument about the logic of xenophobia.

See here:

Nah, the breakdown in your counterargument is your attempt to conflate rallying against illegal immigration with being a general opposition to Mexican immigration.

 

[Seano]

So i think xenophobia isnt necesarily about race or culture, and its more about people sharing your values.

Of course. I'd like to be able to communicate and relate to my neighbors, yes. That doesn't necessarily mean I care what color they are.

 

[Seano]

I don't think there's a very good case for this. Americans overwhelmingly opposed granting refuge to European Jews during the Holocaust. Likewise, we've seen an entire half of the country mobilized on scapegoating of Mexican illegal immigrants. Those are two groups with values that are incredible similar to those of white/conservative America. Mexicans have not only been a model minority group: they've deeply penetrated American culture. I think the successful fearmongering about Mexicans in the US kind of nixed your argument about the logic of xenophobia.

Well, because mass migrations are obviously not a good thing. Most people would agree on this if you eliminate the raw emotion attached to it.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

that murder rate in Guatamala/Honduras/El Salvador is probably one of the biggest deterrents