Just re-watched Fedor vs Arona

[Filibuster]

He face planted and took a number of undefended shots to the head. .

He was playing possum!

 

[Pingu]

Lol

He face planted and took a number of undefended shots to the head. When is that not a stoppage?

Only with fedor is the he wasn’t technically unconscious argument used.

He started turning over before herb stepped in, so herb is blocking both hendo and fedor at that time of the endin. Maybe hendo could have finished, maybe he couldnt. Herb waits another couple of shots since Fedor clearly wasn't out and we don't need to discuss this for 10 years. How is that a good stoppage?

 

[Mixfight]

He started turning over before herb stepped in, so herb is blocking both hendo and fedor at that time of the endin. Maybe hendo could have finished, maybe he couldnt. Herb waits another couple of shots since Fedor clearly wasn't out and we don't need to discuss this for 10 years. How is that a good stoppage?

I'm a Fedor fan but I think it was a good stoppage. The only reason why Fedor started turning over was because he was woken up by Hendos follow up shots. Hendos initial shot flattened him though. You can tell by looking at his hands. First Fedor was using them to post up and then Hendo lands the shot and they went completely flat which is the sign of a KO. Flash KO but KO nonetheless.

 

[SeattleFightFan]

You sure about that?

according to Volk Han, the judges were going to give Arona the dec, until he persuaded Maeda to change their minds.

I lol'd so much when I read that, after reading years of hipsters trying to claim 'but RINGS rules mean Fedor clearly won!'

Uh no, RINGS rules never made that clear, and now we even have it from the horses (or rather, the wolf's) mouth...

source (in Russian):
https://matchtv.ru/boxing/fedor/mat...-v-fedore-chempiona-volk-khan-interview-fedor

lol that's pretty awesome. good find, thanks.

from google translate:

Look at the fight with Arona (on December 22, 2000, the Osaka tournament, "Match TV") and tell me who won this fight, Arona or Fedor? I seconded him then. There was a crazy equal fight. Fedor was young, glasses counted in favor of Aorn, we told him to force events, to be more active. Do not hit sweeping blows. And then, in the opinion of the judges, Aron won . I approached Maeda: "You can not give Arona a victory, you yourself will see the possibility of Feodor another kilometer. He will also become a star. " They listened.
​

i will take it with a grain of salt (mma is riddled with people who's memories and opinions about their memories are less than perfect), but that's a great source. cheers.

 

[kflo]

He started turning over before herb stepped in, so herb is blocking both hendo and fedor at that time of the endin. Maybe hendo could have finished, maybe he couldnt. Herb waits another couple of shots since Fedor clearly wasn't out and we don't need to discuss this for 10 years. How is that a good stoppage?

There’s literally similar stoppages on every card. The standard isn’t consciousness. It’s discussed still because people can’t accept reality. He started turning over?? Lol. What good defense that is.

 

[ThunderL1ps]

I'm a Fedor fan but I think it was a good stoppage. The only reason why Fedor started turning over was because he was woken up by Hendos follow up shots. Hendos initial shot flattened him though. You can tell by looking at his hands. First Fedor was using them to post up and then Hendo lands the shot and they went completely flat which is the sign of a KO. Flash KO but KO nonetheless.

He was punching him in the back of the head lol

 

[george14]

You sure about that?

according to Volk Han, the judges were going to give Arona the dec, until he persuaded Maeda to change their minds.

I lol'd so much when I read that, after reading years of hipsters trying to claim 'but RINGS rules mean Fedor clearly won!'

Uh no, RINGS rules never made that clear, and now we even have it from the horses (or rather, the wolf's) mouth...

source (in Russian):
https://matchtv.ru/boxing/fedor/mat...-v-fedore-chempiona-volk-khan-interview-fedor

So you respond with some bullshit Russian website (that I can't even reach by the way) that cites someone who likely has a beef with Fedor? Classic.

Regardless, go watch the fight. Arona won the 1st round. Fedor narrowly won round 2 because he was actually trying submissions. Fedor won the OT period.

 

[Pingu]

There’s literally similar stoppages on every card. The standard isn’t consciousness. It’s discussed still because people can’t accept reality. He started turning over?? Lol. What good defense that is.

So we are in agreement that he was turning over at least. Intelligently defending yourself is the criteria right? Turning over after landing on your face seems to fit the criteria.

I'll give you Nogueira vs Mir as an example, same judge different outcome. Mir was on the ground doing nothing but trying to move his head, was not even turning around. Herb dean warns nogueira (cant remember if it was once or twice) and mir is still not doing anything, not untill after Nogueira starts grappling does Mir regain his wits and makes the comeback.

Now you give me an example of a similar stoppage that supports your point.

ps: On a side note I find it interesting that Herb Dean was so fast with warning Nogueira but didn't bother with dirty dan blasting Fedor in the back of the head. That's another discussion though.

 

[Pingu]

I'm a Fedor fan but I think it was a good stoppage. The only reason why Fedor started turning over was because he was woken up by Hendos follow up shots. Hendos initial shot flattened him though. You can tell by looking at his hands. First Fedor was using them to post up and then Hendo lands the shot and they went completely flat which is the sign of a KO. Flash KO but KO nonetheless.

Yes yes, flash KO. Let's say it was. Silva was flash KO'd in the clinch against Weidman in their second fight. He was allowed to continue.

Im not trying to sound like a dick here this is a serious question. Are you saying the stoppage was correct, even though Fedor was conscious at the time of the stoppage and defending himself, because at an earlier stage (albeit only a couple of seconds earlier) of the fight he was out?

 

[Mixfight]

Yes yes, flash KO. Let's say it was. Silva was flash KO'd in the clinch against Weidman in their second fight. He was allowed to continue.

Im not trying to sound like a dick here this is a serious question. Are you saying the stoppage was correct, even though Fedor was conscious at the time of the stoppage and defending himself, because at an earlier stage (albeit only a couple of seconds earlier) of the fight he was out?

In all honesty I'm not a just bleed guy. I think guys who get flash kod should live to fight another day rather than absorb follow up shots that take years off their career. As epic as the Maldonado fight was it didnt do Fedors health any favors. Just my opinion.

 

[Wicked_1]

Rules of ghe fight hindered Fedor far more than Arona. Arona was never good at striking, even gnp. He was more of a lay and pray if he couldnt get the sub. It was a close fight, i dont even remember it much honestly. It shouldnt even count as an mma match really as it wasnt one. After Fedor lost his ability to use the tools he possessed due to various injuries that basically took his speed in grappling away. He became a headhunter. And headhunter can lose in any fight. Hendo fought some big and talented guys in his day, and the h bomb can finish anyone. Theres no shame in fedor losing He lost after he lost his bodies ability to do what made him the best.

 

[gono btw]

Rules of ghe fight hindered Fedor far more than Arona. Arona was never good at striking, even gnp. He was more of a lay and pray if he couldnt get the sub. It was a close fight, i dont even remember it much honestly. It shouldnt even count as an mma match really as it wasnt one. After Fedor lost his ability to use the tools he possessed due to various injuries that basically took his speed in grappling away. He became a headhunter. And headhunter can lose in any fight. Hendo fought some big and talented guys in his day, and the h bomb can finish anyone. Theres no shame in fedor losing He lost after he lost his bodies ability to do what made him the best.

"It shouldnt even count as an mma match really as it wasnt one"

But it indeed was. Much more than NHB/Vale Tudo, essentially.

NHB/Vale Tudo was much less refined...Even the BJJ Black Belts, most of the time, would GNP...

If you look at the BJJ vs Luta Livre Challenges [1984 or 1991], or hardcore tournaments like WVC or IVC,
half of the dudes invited were BJJ dudes, and the fights were pretty gruelling ones, not really technical.

Early Pancrase & Rings tried to promote a new evolution, more technical, with fighters working on their
ground game and trying to built a submission game (that´s why GNP was forbidden, great idea...).

 

[felmmando]

He was not defending.

He rolled off his back and put an arm up to ward off further blows. I consider that defense.

 

[Pingu]

In all honesty I'm not a just bleed guy. I think guys who get flash kod should live to fight another day rather than absorb follow up shots that take years off their career. As epic as the Maldonado fight was it didnt do Fedors health any favors. Just my opinion.

I have mixed feelings about the maldon ado fight. After the initial barrage and Fedor was on the floor getting pounder it looked like maldon ado was missing most of his shots. At that point it was pretty clear that the comeback was on the table.

But I agree with you, Fedor should have stopped fighting years ago and while I'm far from a just bleed guy, this is the fight business. Still though, better and early stoppage then a late one.

Anyways, I think this is as far as our discussion will go, thanks for playing mate let's agree to disagree!

 

[kflo]

He rolled off his back and put an arm up to ward off further blows. I consider that defense.

Schuab had his hands up against rothwell too.

I can’t believe I have to explain this but most fights are stopped before the opponent is actually unconscious. He rolled off his back because hendo got off him and stopped pummeling his head. He could barely stand when he tried.

 

[kflo]

Yes yes, flash KO. Let's say it was. Silva was flash KO'd in the clinch against Weidman in their second fight. He was allowed to continue.

Im not trying to sound like a dick here this is a serious question. Are you saying the stoppage was correct, even though Fedor was conscious at the time of the stoppage and defending himself, because at an earlier stage (albeit only a couple of seconds earlier) of the fight he was out?

Lol. Silva’s legs never fully gave. He immediately defended himself. It’s embarrassing that people would try to equate face planting and eating undefended blows to the head to a basic knockdown where the legs barely lose balance. Lol at fedor defending himself. At no point before the fight was stopped did fedor defend himself and even after it was stopped putting a hand up after the ref pulls your opponent off doesn’t qualify as defense. Seriously. It’s an embarrassing narrative you’re trying to spin.

 

[kflo]

So we are in agreement that he was turning over at least. Intelligently defending yourself is the criteria right? Turning over after landing on your face seems to fit the criteria.

I'll give you Nogueira vs Mir as an example, same judge different outcome. Mir was on the ground doing nothing but trying to move his head, was not even turning around. Herb dean warns nogueira (cant remember if it was once or twice) and mir is still not doing anything, not untill after Nogueira starts grappling does Mir regain his wits and makes the comeback.

Now you give me an example of a similar stoppage that supports your point.

ps: On a side note I find it interesting that Herb Dean was so fast with warning Nogueira but didn't bother with dirty dan blasting Fedor in the back of the head. That's another discussion though.

Mir didn’t face plant and eat completely undefended blows to the head. Again how can you possibly argue they were similar??

How about hunt vs Mir? Or hunt vs Struve? Or hunt vs Nelson? Again every card has fights stopped before the opponent goes unconscious. It’s the refs job to prevent that.

 

[Pingu]

Lol. Silva’s legs never fully gave. He immediately defended himself. It’s embarrassing that people would try to equate face planting and eating undefended blows to the head to a basic knockdown where the legs barely lose balance. Lol at fedor defending himself. At no point before the fight was stopped did fedor defend himself and even after it was stopped putting a hand up after the ref pulls your opponent off doesn’t qualify as defense. Seriously. It’s an embarrassing narrative you’re trying to spin.

I believe Fedor was turning around before Herb Dean stepped in, he was conscious and defending himself. Like I told you before and you have said nothing to dispute it, it was a bad stoppage because it left room for argument. Fedor turning around and being aware should have given Herb reason to paus for another moment before either stepping in or stepping back. It was a bad stoppage, not the worst but bad. You mention Hunt vs Struve, Nelson and Mir. Nobody complained about those stoppages including the fighters on the recieving end because they were out.

I'm embarrassing? You are the childish prick trying to start a flame war. "LOL" this and "LOL" that. You're rude in every other sentence. If you wanted to discuss this you should have posted something relevant to the discussion. If you are incapable of being civil I'm out.

 

[kflo]

I believe Fedor was turning around before Herb Dean stepped in, he was conscious and defending himself. Like I told you before and you have said nothing to dispute it, it was a bad stoppage because it left room for argument. Fedor turning around and being aware should have given Herb reason to paus for another moment before either stepping in or stepping back. It was a bad stoppage, not the worst but bad. You mention Hunt vs Struve, Nelson and Mir. Nobody complained about those stoppages including the fighters on the recieving end because they were out.

I'm embarrassing? You are the childish prick trying to start a flame war. "LOL" this and "LOL" that. You're rude in every other sentence. If you wanted to discuss this you should have posted something relevant to the discussion. If you are incapable of being civil I'm out.

It is embarrassing to compare it to Silva weidman 2. Sorry to say but it’s true. There’s literally nothing similar. Relevant to the discussion? Fedor face planted and ate undefended blows to the head. It is a stoppage almost all the time. He was at no point “defending himself” before dean stepped in. Even after dean stepped in nothing fedor did suggested he was capable of intelligent defense. And even after that he could barely stand. Again the fights I referenced were the same. Fighter drops and doesn’t demonstrate an ability to continue and ref stops it before fighter gets pummeled further until unconscious. Tyson griffin face planted against Gomi and fight was immediately stopped. He’s not unconscious and doesn’t even eat shots like fedor does. Again there’s literally fights stopped on every single card with fighters less out than fedor was.

 

[Wicked_1]

"It shouldnt even count as an mma match really as it wasnt one"

But it indeed was. Much more than NHB/Vale Tudo, essentially.

NHB/Vale Tudo was much less refined...Even the BJJ Black Belts, most of the time, would GNP...

If you look at the BJJ vs Luta Livre Challenges [1984 or 1991], or hardcore tournaments like WVC or IVC,
half of the dudes invited were BJJ dudes, and the fights were pretty gruelling ones, not really technical.

Early Pancrase & Rings tried to promote a new evolution, more technical, with fighters working on their
ground game and trying to built a submission game (that´s why GNP was forbidden, great idea...).

Vale tudo, pancrase etc dont show up on records. Wandy fought lots of vale tudo and gets no mma cred for it. Rings was closer to pancrase which also arent considered on mma record.