Multiple attackers.

[k1 man]

Kyokushin Karate? Great - I'm taking that :icon_chee

lmao

 

[Gregster]

The best defense against multiple attackers:

This would be one those extraordinarily rare occasions where I completely disagree, KK.

1) Multiple, or even one, attacker at close range get still get you in a rush if they see you grabbing at your waistband. My instructor, in his bouncing days, choked out a guy who got pissed off for being turned away at the door (for being drunk), reached into his waistband, and started running his mouth about "cappin' motherfuckers." Turns out he was unarmed, but even if he was, he'd have been checked out with no forwarding address before he could bring the weapon to bear.

2) Guns give people false confidence. As someone who is an avid shooter and given formal marksmanship instruction, simply having a gun is no good. You have to hit what you're aiming at. And close-range "oh shit" shooting is another skill entirely. I doubt you'll disagree, just pointing it out. Some guys carry a gun and then pull it out with no intention of using it; if their bluff is called, they wind up getting shot and/or killed with their own gun.

3) On that note: every year, plenty of cops get shot with their own service weapons during a physical altercation with some who is drunk and/or high and/or enraged and/or even already wounded with the same gun they wind up turning on the cop.

4) COnsidering the capriciousness of the law, you might be better off taking an ass-kicking than using or even brandishing a weapon; there's good chance you'll be healed before you're out of jail or done paying off your lawyer. This is why I stopped short of getting a carry permit.

 

[Rudy Richter]

It doesn't matter how much MMA or martial arts training you have. NOTHING will prepare you for a street fight. You may have a small edge over your opponent, but on the street, ANYTHING goes. A black belt goes down just like any average bum when you hit him in the head with a bottle. Thats exactly the kind of thing that happens and you better be prepared to do the same because you might be fighting for your life. If you are facing multiple attackers and you can't put them down quickly with a weapon, (including your hands).........run.

You are wise beyond your post count.

 

[Rudy Richter]

I'm the one that said that. I believe what I said was that the best thing to do was take the element of surprise and hit the first two hard and run like hell. I've actually had students who people tried to mug and this is exactly what they did.

Look we practice three on one sparring ourselves. The idea is exactly what you guys have talked about (only fight one at a time, move, if you're bigger clinch one and swing him into others). But we also understand the reality of it. We practice it, but we aren't 'effective' at it. Certainly not effective enough that I wouldn't elect to run like hell if I was confronted with such a situation.

I've had people who take Krav Maga tell me they practice full contact with one guy sparring against the whole class. Please! How stupid do they think I am? They actually expect me to believe they spar like 5 people when they can haul off and front kick them with everything they got in the ribs? If that is the case then I have to say their techniques suck, because I can drop a guy with one kick if I catch them right and I can definitely be dropped if I eat one .
I should also add there are plenty of examples of a competitive and athletic guy beating down two are three people, especially if they are bigger than all the guys they are fighting. But when you throw in the chance of being knifed, hit with something big and heavy, etc, etc...

It just isn't worth the risk.

You TKD guys are just a bunch of flaming pussies! We chuck bricks at each other in training to make each other tougher!!!!! Just kidding... Great post, I couldn't agree more.

 

[b_]

This would be one those extraordinarily rare occasions where I completely disagree, KK.

1) Multiple, or even one, attacker at close range get still get you in a rush if they see you grabbing at your waistband. My instructor, in his bouncing days, choked out a guy who got pissed off for being turned away at the door (for being drunk), reached into his waistband, and started running his mouth about "cappin' motherfuckers." Turns out he was unarmed, but even if he was, he'd have been checked out with no forwarding address before he could bring the weapon to bear.

2) Guns give people false confidence. As someone who is an avid shooter and given formal marksmanship instruction, simply having a gun is no good. You have to hit what you're aiming at. And close-range "oh shit" shooting is another skill entirely. I doubt you'll disagree, just pointing it out. Some guys carry a gun and then pull it out with no intention of using it; if their bluff is called, they wind up getting shot and/or killed with their own gun.

some good points however there are always exceptions. this goes along with your "oh shit" shooting skills comment. in the p&m section there is a video of three guys in an apartment hallway. this guy from the street asks them to let him in because he was locked out. they let him in and he tries to rob them. they bum rush the guy but he still shot 2 of them with 1 of them dying. then the gunman gets up and runs away unscathed save for a few punches.

 

[Jayrock8923]

Hand grenades are very effective against multiple attackers.

 

[Rinksterk**]

I am pretty sure that if you take someone like Wanderlei Silva or Fedor and put him against 2 or 3 regular guys with rules: no weapons, no sucker punching, etc, the regular guys probably are gonna get a beating. Do you really think you and your buddy can go up to Wanderlei Silva at a club or something, call him out, and beat him down with your fists? But the thing is, in real street fights, people do sucker punch, they can have weapons, and they call can up more friends.

 

[greedysob]

I agree with the idea that martial arts training will make you more prepared for a fight on the street, and that some martial arts will prepare you for a multiple attacker sutiation more than others; but most martial artists are way over confident in their ability to handle multiple attackers because of their training.

I think the first problem is that most TMA'ers underestimate the profficiancy of street fighters. They hear their instructors say "the average attacker doesn't know..." so many times that they start to believe they have bigger advantage than they really do over the average guy. Anyone who has boxed, kickboxed, or grappled has eventually found out that some people are just plain tough. We've all had someone step into the ring with us with no real formal experience that turned out to be a bad ass. Maybe they were born that way. Maybe they grew up in a bad neighborhood, or maybe they were just beat on by their older siblings until they learned to handle themselves. Either way, many of us have learned that just because someone doesn't have a black belt in so and so or X amount of years of boxing/kickboxing doesn't mean they aren't capable of throwing down.

And that's where the major problem in a multiple attacker situation comes in. If only one guy attacks you chances are he's probably not very tough and if you've had some training you should be able to take him out. If two guys attack you, though, now there's twice the chance that one of them is dangerous. Three guys... There are many strategies and techniques that can effectively increase your chance of coming out on top in a multiple attacker situation, but they ALL rely on you have a certain level of technical and or physical profficiency over your attackers, and you just can't count on always having that. The more attackers you face the harder it is to overcome the odds.

Another thing that I think leads to over confidence is the way that some of martial artists are trained to handle multiple attacker situations. If you stand in the middle of a circle and people charge at you one at a time you're not really simulating a multiple attacker situation. A group of attackers aren't going to give you the advantage of facing them individually. It's also not very realistic to practice set routines against multiple attackers. You can't plan move for move how you're going to fight any fight. The worst is when I hear about how a kata that prepares you for a multiple attacker situation. Katas prepare you for kata competitions. That's it. I've got no problem if you want to compete in kata competions. Go for it. But don't start claiming that your katas teach you how to fight. Fighting is about improvisation and adaptation. You have to be able to handle the unexpected and you have to use the unexpected to throw off an opponent with a solid defense. Nothing about practicing the same moves over and over again in the air will teach you that. You might get a good workout and your moves will start to look better, but you're not learning to fight.

A couple of people have also mentioned the use of weapons. Unfortunately if there is something within reach of you that can be used chances are you aren't going to be the one picking it up. With two or three people coming at you it's hard for you to fend them off, look for a weapon, and reach down and pick it up without opening yourself up for an attack. It's much more likely that while one or two guys are beating up on you that the third will be reaching for the nearest blunt object to hit you with. And even if you do get ahold of that object first, you've just increased the chance that it will be used on you. It may have been possible that they were just going to hit you a few times and take your wallet. Now they're angry and bashing your head in with the rock you found.

 

[Sinister]

This would be one those extraordinarily rare occasions where I completely disagree, KK.

1) Multiple, or even one, attacker at close range get still get you in a rush if they see you grabbing at your waistband. My instructor, in his bouncing days, choked out a guy who got pissed off for being turned away at the door (for being drunk), reached into his waistband, and started running his mouth about "cappin' motherfuckers." Turns out he was unarmed, but even if he was, he'd have been checked out with no forwarding address before he could bring the weapon to bear.

2) Guns give people false confidence. As someone who is an avid shooter and given formal marksmanship instruction, simply having a gun is no good. You have to hit what you're aiming at. And close-range "oh shit" shooting is another skill entirely. I doubt you'll disagree, just pointing it out. Some guys carry a gun and then pull it out with no intention of using it; if their bluff is called, they wind up getting shot and/or killed with their own gun.

3) On that note: every year, plenty of cops get shot with their own service weapons during a physical altercation with some who is drunk and/or high and/or enraged and/or even already wounded with the same gun they wind up turning on the cop.

4) COnsidering the capriciousness of the law, you might be better off taking an ass-kicking than using or even brandishing a weapon; there's good chance you'll be healed before you're out of jail or done paying off your lawyer. This is why I stopped short of getting a carry permit.

It was totally a joke. Beating the shit out of more than one guy is not unfathomable. And some people have already mentioned the best strategies for it.

I was just picking a strategic time to be an asshole.

Though I will say this. If I was presented with imminent harm, I would happily sit in jail for shooting the motherfuckers attempting it. It's not uncommon for more than one person to beat someone to Death without even meaning to.

 

[Immolation]

Hey srry bahhdy but no style is DESIGNED 2 take on multiple attackers. Trying to block 4 succesive punches from one crazed drunken outta shape ahole is tuff but from 2 or three it becomes even harder, however if u are faced with such a deperate fight remember 4 things.

1. Position urself so u can only be attacked by one person at a time. DON'T GO DOWN
2. Be agressive, attack and hit as hard and as fast as u can take out the strongest first.
3. FIGHT TO WIN, A.K.A FIGHT DIRTY, Nothing solves a confrontation quite as nicely as a good old fashion shot to the nuts. Or a direct hit to the knee or throat, a few standing joint-locks are nice. Boken bones end a fight pretty quickly
4. When u can run, always run from an odd man situation. One lucky blow can stunn u and lead to a world or hurtin

Remember us people train to fight competivly 1on1 in a safe controlled enviroment where things like weapons, cheapshots and our lives aren't on the line

This is some of the best advice. Move around and be very aggressive. I hav fought 2 guys before and won. I have seen guys fight several attackers and still win. We all fought dirty. I kicked one guy in the nuts and picked up a rock and hit the other guy. Always look for weapons and run if you can.

 

[aaron_mag]

I think the first problem is that most TMA'ers underestimate the profficiancy of street fighters. They hear their instructors say "the average attacker doesn't know..." so many times that they start to believe they have bigger advantage than they really do over the average guy. Anyone who has boxed, kickboxed, or grappled has eventually found out that some people are just plain tough. We've all had someone step into the ring with us with no real formal experience that turned out to be a bad ass. Maybe they were born that way. Maybe they grew up in a bad neighborhood, or maybe they were just beat on by their older siblings until they learned to handle themselves. Either way, many of us have learned that just because someone doesn't have a black belt in so and so or X amount of years of boxing/kickboxing doesn't mean they aren't capable of throwing down.

Or often it is because they do the unexpected because they just don't know any better. The old saying is that the best swordsman in the world needs to fear the complete beginner more than the second best swordsman in the world. There is a reason it is an old saying.

I think that the problem many MA guys have is that they expect TOO MUCH from their training. They've watched too many movies where the martial artist is a master of every situation (including getting the girl).

All I expect from training is to do better than I would without it. I remember training with a guy in kickboxing with pretty good boxing experience (the guy rarely ever kicked) who outweighed me by a good 50 pounds. I actually dropped him a couple of times with some kicks, but more often than not I would spend the entire round running like crocop, escaping the corner, and setting up again.

What I learned from this is that big guys are harder to hurt and hit pretty damn hard (and I'm not small at 200 lbs (was 190 back then).

Most people on this board seem to think that unless you dominate someone you should just sit down, get on the pity pot, and say, "All of my training was useless." Instead I thought, "I was able to survive against a much bigger opponent, avoid most of his shots, and make it three three minute rounds. Good..."

Because I saw the same guy knock people on their ass. Plus, as I said before, there were times when I caught him with a good kick and sent him down.

To me that showed my training worked. I avoided injury and managed to not get knocked on my ass, plus was able to generate some offense. Not exactly a dominant performance something to work with.

 

[greedysob]

Or often it is because they do the unexpected because they just don't know any better. The old saying is that the best swordsman in the world needs to fear the complete beginner more than the second best swordsman in the world. There is a reason it is an old saying.

I like that saying a lot. It's very true. In any martial arts part of the learning process includes learning the rules of the game. When sparring with new guys one of the biggest difficulties is that they don't yet know the rules, and what they do is less predictable. They also haven't learned the strategies that have been proven successful, so the counters we have become good with don't work because they aren't attacking the way we expect them to.

I think that the problem many MA guys have is that they expect TOO MUCH from their training. They've watched too many movies where the martial artist is a master of every situation (including getting the girl).

Yeah, definitely. That's what I was referring to when I mentioned that the way some martial artists are trained makes them more over confident. They see Jet Li take down 6 people in a movie, and then they go into class and practice multiple attacker drills that they believe will prepare them for 6 people.

So herin lies the problem. Sport based martial arts have proven themselves second to none at producing fighters with practical fighting ability. The fighters produced are relaxed in bad situations, ready to respond, and comfortable applying what they know against resisting opponents. BUT, the rules of their sport have confined the way they train and they aren't ready for every possible situation. They are also often surprised by styles completely foreign to them (ie, the boxers and kickboxers that faced Royce Gracie in the early UFC days).

Then on the other side are more TMA style training methodologies that attempt to prepare a fighter for every possible solution. They drill multiple attacker scenarios and knife defenses. But the situations they seek to recreate in the training enviroment are impossible to be practiced at full force, and the rusult is many martial artists that are over confident in their ability to handle the situations they have been trained for.

I guess the main thing to remember is that no matter what background you come from you need to stay humble. No matter how good you are, or how prepared you may feel, you have a weekness. For all that have claimed to have beaten mutiple attackers I say good for you. Be thankful it turned out well, but next time run. Fighting is a last resort option not because your Sensei say so, it's because you never know what can happen.

 

[Zankou]

So much truth in this thread .... some more of the truths TMA doesn't want you to know:

-- Multiple attackers are nearly always doom unless you are bigger or armed
-- It doesn't matter if you have training; many (if not most) opponents are going to be tough bastards. Thinking they are going to crumple after a couple shots is wishful. Even your average young male opponent will fight you tough.
-- Bigger opponents are a terrible mofo to defeat in real life.
-- Women cannot learn a few simple techniques to turn the tables on a much stronger male attacker.

There are so many reasons to train martial arts; I always think it's a shame that most of the reasons that are usually given are snake oil. Because the more realistic reasons -- fun, conditioning, confidence, etc -- are not flashy enough. Training martial arts will give you a substantially greater chance of beating an unarmed opponent who is near your physical range. It won't do much more than that.

 

[Crimsonsabbath]

I just read in another thread a guy say," No style is effective against multiple attackers."

I agree with you, tell that to Urijah Faber.

 

[WaR6986]

i've been working on my deadlift and quadruple leg takedown so i can pick all of them up at once for a suplex

 

[InternetHero]

Really "Multiple attackers" depends on a few things...

1. How big/athletic are they? (Arnold could take out like a bus full of nerds.)
2. What do they know? (If they are unskilled or of low skill level you can knock them around)
3. How many? (Duh. If they are grown men, of relative size, and seedy enough to start trouble suggesting they know how to fight, then you're best off running.)

 

[InternetHero]

This would be one those extraordinarily rare occasions where I completely disagree, KK.

1) Multiple, or even one, attacker at close range get still get you in a rush if they see you grabbing at your waistband. My instructor, in his bouncing days, choked out a guy who got pissed off for being turned away at the door (for being drunk), reached into his waistband, and started running his mouth about "cappin' motherfuckers." Turns out he was unarmed, but even if he was, he'd have been checked out with no forwarding address before he could bring the weapon to bear.

2) Guns give people false confidence. As someone who is an avid shooter and given formal marksmanship instruction, simply having a gun is no good. You have to hit what you're aiming at. And close-range "oh shit" shooting is another skill entirely. I doubt you'll disagree, just pointing it out. Some guys carry a gun and then pull it out with no intention of using it; if their bluff is called, they wind up getting shot and/or killed with their own gun.

3) On that note: every year, plenty of cops get shot with their own service weapons during a physical altercation with some who is drunk and/or high and/or enraged and/or even already wounded with the same gun they wind up turning on the cop.

4) COnsidering the capriciousness of the law, you might be better off taking an ass-kicking than using or even brandishing a weapon; there's good chance you'll be healed before you're out of jail or done paying off your lawyer. This is why I stopped short of getting a carry permit.

1. All releative to distance. And most times if someone sees a gun they freeze up or back off, but if you pull the gun you should shoot them.
2. Yes. If you can't use/aim a firearm properly and have no nerve for it don't even think about it.
3. Cops get shot with their own weapons typically because they are grappling with an unruly suspect who pulls the sidearm from their belt while they are distracted.
4. Depends on the State/Country. Here we have good pro-self-defense laws. And if you think you might get busted for something cover up the "crime".

Ultimately the question is... can I just run away from these guys? If so OK.

Now if those guys look like they are about to beat, rob, rape, and then kill you. Then by all means.

Gun them down.

 

[maddog088]

Kyokushin Karate? Great - I'm taking that :icon_chee

I agree. I have been taking Kyokushin for 8 years, and Muay Thai for 17 years. I have only been in one street fight and it was against 3 men. I won pretty handly, but I would say that luck had alot to do with it. It was stated in an earlier post that location is the key, and that poster is absolutely correct, it really depends on where you position your opponents. I dont think a person that has no MA training would have the knowledge to control where his opponent moves to. Than again some people are just natural scrappers. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Harajuku]

Yeah I guess guys with extensive training would be better off. Like everybody has mentioned. It would depend what you are up against though. I can take a beating. Take a beating long enough to get out of there. I got no problem with being smashed with elbows, headbutts, knees, blood pouring from my head, from bigger guys throughout my training. So I do not think some average weaponless guy is gonna put a hurt on me. I still think it would be pretty down and dirty, no walking away all spiffy and unmarked. I mean the scenario would have to go down as you imagine. That does not happen. I just think my training would give me a better chance of surviving not somehow beating the hell out of 4-5guys.
I remember they had this show on tv(Japanese tv). They had this kendo master fight these average guys. The average guys were given sticks and time to make a plan. It was not in a dojo, they had trees, rocks, bushes outside. First it was one on one, kendo master took him out. Two on one, still the kendo guy. Three on one, kendo guy. Four on one, kendo guy got caught. GUy hid behind a tree and jumped him from behind while the other three were trying to tee off.
Oh yeah Kendo guy had his shinai. So weapon against weapon. It was interesting.

 

[Darkloner]

Bas Rutten on his Lethal Street Defense DVD would disagree with you!

He tells stories of being a bouncer and showing how to take on 7 people on at once...

Damn! I gotta see that DVD...