Muslim Refugees Taught To Lie About Being Christian By NGOs

[svirk]

Takiya is scary

It certainly is. It reminds me a little of the old Christian practice of accusing the Jews of using the blood of Christians in religious rituals. This libel was perpetrated throughout the Middle Ages and as late as the 20th century. "Blood libel", as it is now called, is an antisemitic canard accusing Jews of kidnapping and murdering the children of Christians in order to use their blood as part of religious rituals.

While not nearly as bad, Taqqiya libel, follows in the same vein. It is an accusation (mainly employed by Christians) that Muslims are taught to lie about their faith for some gain against "infidels". Obviously, a false accusation only a complete fool or one consumed by hatred could accept. As Jews hearing about "blood libel" for the first time were probably confused and aghast so too are Muslims flabbergasted when they are faced with "taqqiya libel" and have to go find out what the term means.

 

[uppercutbus]

Religion (or any strongly held belief) is used by many to gain and maintain power. The religion or belief system is manipulated to commit excess and outright evil. For example, around 500AD apostasy became a capital crime in Christendom. If you lived in the Christian world, anywhere from around 400AD to maybe as late as 1800AD, what conclusions would you have reached about Christianity? Would you say that Jesus preached burning witches, killing pagans and torturing Jews? If there were a Christian of that time who tried to explain to you the message of Jesus would you tell him that Christians kill pagans so that must be part of the religion? Would you point to the edicts issued by the Popes and the speeches of so-called scholars of the time as proof of your claim? St. Augustine argued, "There is a righteous persecution which the Church of Christ inflicts upon the impious. She persecutes in the spirit of love. that she may correct. that she may recall from error. taking]measures for their good, to secure their eternal salvation."

There is great ignorance in the Muslim world which is in a pathetic state at this point in time. Much of what is being preached about Islam is in fact anti-Islamic.

This is correct and people should learn from the past. Christendom went through a reformation, but there is a reason for that. Someone here posted that explained why Christianity was able to go through a reformation when they looked back at the New Testament text, and this simply might not be possible with Islam. Skip to 4:45, but really watch the whole video:

The original video describes why Islam can't go through a reformation. You're saying Jews didn't go through one therefore Islam doesn't need to. The guy explains that Muslims interpret the Quran as final and Mohammed was perfect and should be emulated.

Basically in order for a reformation to occur, the example we have is Christianity, but can the parallels be applied? Looking back at the scripture and reaching a different conclusion that is tenable to adhere to for a reformation? There is no evidence muslims are going this route because "if they look back at scripture" they won't find the avenues that will allow for a reformation.

I actually doubt any change will come soon with Islam at this point in time. Islam should actually change in this modern world and maybe it will but I don't have high hopes for it happening within this century. "that's not real Islam" from the moderates every time someone does something bad in the name of Islam sounds like that's the strongest pushback we've seen. And that pushback is targeted at the wrong people.

It's not non-muslims opinions that need changing, because it's not us doing the bad things, and it's not our responsibility to accommodate arguments about "who is the real-Islam and who isn't" other than to look out for ourselves.

The destabilization in the middle east is correct to be highlighted as a blight in the modern world. Seems to be universally slammed, even by Trump iirc, those decisions are government decisions and I don't think can be pinned on the American people or people the west. I think that's a side topic to Islam itself. If religion can be used to suit their own agendas and propaganda, gain power and influence like you said, than the governments have their own agendas and propaganda in instigating wars, but that's not on the regular citizens to shoulder the blame.

Islam would probably still have the same problems in those Islamic countries regardless if U.S. invaded Iraq. Destabilization didn't change anything in the Quran, Hadiths etc. or how they're used by muslims and Islamic governments. It did kick a hornets nest though which everyone is regretting (except those well insulated).

 

[Leagon]

Good day to you too.

Lol, you're too kind. Dude has been on some bitch shit this whole thread, picking fights, getting battered, then trying to change topic instead of just admitted he was wrong. Total coward. You let him off easy.

 

[m25105]

Lol, you're too kind. Dude has been on some bitch shit this whole thread, picking fights, getting battered, then trying to change topic instead of just admitted he was wrong. Total coward. You let him off easy.

Moving the goal post is what they do best.

 

[Fazz]

Lol, you're too kind. Dude has been on some bitch shit this whole thread, picking fights, getting battered, then trying to change topic instead of just admitted he was wrong. Total coward. You let him off easy.

We weren’t gonna get anywhere, it was clear. I’ve had more than one discussion on this topic of ‘taqiya’ and on every occasion, the person has either disappeared or changed the subject.

Unfortunately these types of people have had their minds filled with this nonsense by professional liars like David Wood or laughable websites like religionofpeace.com.

When you try to have an actual discussion with them and bring up actual Islamic sources, scholarly books and commentaries, the conversation usually ends.

 

[Leagon]

I actually doubt any change will come soon with Islam at this point in time.

When you say that Islam needs to change to fit in the modern world, what is it about Islam that you think needs changing? I've been to four Islamic countries, and all four felt totally modern. One actually felt a lot more advanced than the US in terms of wealth and social stability.

If Islam is incompatible with the modern world, why are so many muslim countries modernized?

 

[uppercutbus]

When you say that Islam needs to change to fit in the modern world, what is it about Islam that you think needs changing? I've been to four Islamic countries, and all four felt totally modern. One actually felt a lot more advanced than the US in terms of wealth and social stability.

If Islam is incompatible with the modern world, why are so many muslim countries modernized?

If those countries are so great and "modern", why is no one flocking to them and beating the door down to these terrible white countries instead?

 

[Leagon]

If those countries are so great and "modern", why is no one flocking to them and beating the door down to these terrible white countries instead?

I never said the countries were great, I said they were modern. In each of the countries I went to, I was visiting a friend who had left the West to go live there.

But that's anecdotal and beside the point. In what ways is Islam incompatible with modern civilization?

 

[Leagon]

Islamic culture is incompatible with western culture. The way women are treated and the way they are required to dress is a perfect example. Another one is the praying method.

Can you elaborate? Which specific ways of treating women are incompatible? How are Islamic required required to dress and by whom?

 

[uppercutbus]

I never said the countries were great, I said they were modern. In each of the countries I went to, I was visiting a friend who had left the West to go live there.

But that's anecdotal and beside the point. In what ways is Islam incompatible with modern civilization?

The thread is about "persecution for not being muslim" being a believable story so they can convince the authorities to let them in. You can't have it both ways, either there's nothing wrong with Islam and their story wouldn't be given consideration, or there is and you just can't accept it.

 

[Andy Capp]

I'm suspicious of RT as a source. Some dude's comments on Reddit saved me some trouble:

1. The video is clearly edited for minimum nuance, and therefore you would be wise to be suspicious of it, especially given the source. Notice how Southern's framing has shifted. Previously she was crying about the EU just letting everybody in, flooding Europe with migrants, etc; now apparently she's very supportive of the system in place, and oh-so-angry about people trying to game that system.
   
   
2. The EU asylum system is designed to minimize the chances that anybody will make it through, even if they are a genuine refugee. The administrative barriers are in many ways more difficult than the physical barriers; hence the phrase "Fortress Europe", which you may have heard. But think about it: these are people who are willingly going through that administration; not some fantasy of "invaders" but people who are going through the system.
   
   
3. I can't speak to Advocates Abroad's actual practice - and neither can you - because I believe this video is unlikely to be an accurate reflection of that practice. What I do know is that it is common practice for refugee advocacy groups to help refugees to understand the process they are about to go through, and to coach them in how to navigate that process. This is not new, surprising, or immoral.
   

I reserve the right to change my opinion if new information appears, but otherwise: this video is propaganda, not journalism.

 

[Leagon]

The thread is about "persecution for not being muslim" being a believable story so they can convince the authorities to let them in. You can't have it both ways, either there's nothing wrong with Islam and their story wouldn't be given consideration, or there is and you just can't accept it.

You said Islam needs to change to fit with modern life. I asked how. Do you have an answer?

 

[uppercutbus]

You said Islam needs to change to fit with modern life. I asked how. Do you have an answer?

Islam is inherently supremacist, and therefore hostile to everything outside itself. If you believe it, and it's important to you, then you will be hostile to all other ways of life.

 

[uppercutbus]

I'm suspicious of RT as a source. Some dude's comments on Reddit saved me some trouble:

1. The video is clearly edited for minimum nuance, and therefore you would be wise to be suspicious of it, especially given the source. Notice how Southern's framing has shifted. Previously she was crying about the EU just letting everybody in, flooding Europe with migrants, etc; now apparently she's very supportive of the system in place, and oh-so-angry about people trying to game that system.
   
   
2. The EU asylum system is designed to minimize the chances that anybody will make it through, even if they are a genuine refugee. The administrative barriers are in many ways more difficult than the physical barriers; hence the phrase "Fortress Europe", which you may have heard. But think about it: these are people who are willingly going through that administration; not some fantasy of "invaders" but people who are going through the system.
   
   
3. I can't speak to Advocates Abroad's actual practice - and neither can you - because I believe this video is unlikely to be an accurate reflection of that practice. What I do know is that it is common practice for refugee advocacy groups to help refugees to understand the process they are about to go through, and to coach them in how to navigate that process. This is not new, surprising, or immoral.

I reserve the right to change my opinion if new information appears, but otherwise: this video is propaganda, not journalism.

Someone who legit is helping legit refugees should have stood her ground and not run for the hills, deleting her online profile too.

The Stop Soros bill isn't something Hungary made up out of feelings either.

 

[Andy Capp]

You said Islam needs to change to fit with modern life. I asked how. Do you have an answer?

There's only one thing any religion needs to fit in with modern life. Keep it to yourself and/or associate with people of similar beliefs when religion is what you want to discuss (i.e. church, mosque, et al.) Believe whatever the fuck you want but your right to do that stops at the point where it interferes with everyone else's right to not be affected by your beliefs.

That goes for so-called Christians as well, of course.

 

[Leagon]

Islam is inherently supremacist,

Okay, I can go with that.

and therefore hostile to everything outside itself.

How did you get to this? All of the Abrahamic religions are supremacist, yet I think we could both agree that Christianity and Judaism are not hostile to everything outside themselves.

 

[Andy Capp]

Someone who legit is helping legit refugees should have stood her ground and not run for the hills, deleting her online profile too.

The Stop Soros bill isn't something Hungary made up out of feelings either.

So, what you're saying is that this particular person was apparently engaged in this particular wrongful act and seemingly got caught. OK. It's good when people who do wrong get caught. Is there any evidence that the practice is widespread? Does RT ever state how many different such NGO's they went to before catching this person?

And yes, I'll accept a charge of moving the goal post on this one because there's no point arguing over this woman's guilt or innocence at this time. So, moving on to addressing your last post, what is the actual point here? It seems to be that the whole system is corrupt with an organized goal of letting in bazillions of Muslims and supposedly ruining Europe thereby. I see no evidence for this. Do you have any?

 

[uppercutbus]

So, what you're saying is that this particular person was apparently engaged in this particular wrongful act and seemingly got caught. OK. It's good when people who do wrong get caught. Is there any evidence that the practice is widespread? Does RT ever state how many different such NGO's they went to before catching this person?

And yes, I'll accept a charge of moving the goal post on this one because there's no point arguing over this woman's guilt or innocence at this time. So, moving on to addressing your last post, what is the actual point here? It seems to be that the whole system is corrupt with an organized goal of letting in bazillions of Muslims and supposedly ruining Europe thereby. I see no evidence for this. Do you have any?

I'm not going to find the links, and even if I did you would hand wave them away as right wing source, didn't happen. You are free to believe there is no credibility to migrants being shipped and assisted from North Africa to Italy, given debit cards from Soros and mastercard, custom checks loosened to allow migrants free travel on trains up Germany Sweden from Italy etc. This thread is a prime example itself and is exactly why the Stop Soros bill was created, because of these organized subversive attempts.

 

[Rholk]

Snackbar: I'm actually a Christian feeing persecution.
German refugee office: Oh? I'm sorry, vee only accept people who are actually oppressed, like Muslims.

 

[Leagon]

They are required to dress in a specific way and it's enforced by the men.

Then there's the whole male escort thing.

Women should not travel more than 48 miles without a male escort
Women should not be allowed to go on long journeys without a male chaperone a British Muslim group has advised followers.

Justine Greening, the International Development Secretary, condemned the advice from Blackburn Muslim Association as “disgraceful” and said such views had “no place” in modern Britain.

Instructions from the association’s “Department of Theology” insist that it is “not permissible” for a woman to go more than 48 miles – deemed to be the equivalent of three days walk - without her husband or a close male relative.

It also stipulates that men must grow beards and advises women to cover their faces.


This is incompatibility with the West.

Six things women in Saudi Arabia still can’t do

Are we talking about Islam or Saudi Arabia?