Official Judo Thread X: Triple Weave Edition

[Thrawn33]

Brothers!

Due to a lack of Judo in the immediate area I have set aside the Brown belt for one of BJJ white.

Training at a Royce affiliate that starts rolls from standing.

I am loving the return to the general lawlessness of stand-up grappling that existed over a decade ago.

Sumi, uchimata and anklepicks oh my!

 

[Monkadelic]

In the last Judo thread (or possibly the one before that), someone posted a gif of a Japanese chap launching a blistering 1-2-3 of ashi waza. Anyone remember this? And if so, are you able to post it again?

 

[Bayonet]

This one?

 

[BKR]

Yeah, I've thought so myself, so I'm not sure if I'll go back - but that's what I thought after the second ACL injury and took a break for several years. However, I was doing squats with 140-150 kg, which isn't amazingly strong but not incredibly weak either. In any case, for the forward throw setup, I was thinking that perhaps it would be something along those lines that especially beginners might be open for:



... in particular at 3:09.

The sequence/process at that time (the push/bump/throw) is a basic one, and good to practice. However, it does depend on a certain reaction from uke, a certain rhythm to work. Against beginners, who move like pregnant yaaks, or worse, that sort of rhythmic action can be difficult to induce.

Beginners and a lot of novice judoka (ok, most of them) tend to be pretty stiff, and tend to react to any sort of attack by lowering their weight and leaning backwards. Or at times they just charge forward or push forward.

This leads to to ways to create an opening, or take advantage of what is given to attempt a throw.
1.) Uke walks forward pushing, usually ayumi ashi style. Train for that by having uke do just that, move forward aggressively. You would be surprised how many people don't actually train for that opportunity. I see it from sankyu and nikyu level teenagers who qualify for nationals quite a bit.

2.) Attempt forward throw, reverse to rear when uke pulls backwards. If uke widens stance, use kouchi or ouchi gari, if narrower or steps forward, can use Osoto GAri/otoshi, sometimes Kosoto Gari

3.) All this presupposes that tori has a couple of throws he/she can do effectively, that tori has a usable grip, etc.

4.) Finally, consider circular movement to "set up" attacks rather than linear, in general.

 

[jonpall]

Thanks BKR.

 

[Uchi Mata]

The sequence/process at that time (the push/bump/throw) is a basic one, and good to practice. However, it does depend on a certain reaction from uke, a certain rhythm to work. Against beginners, who move like pregnant yaaks, or worse, that sort of rhythmic action can be difficult to induce.

Beginners and a lot of novice judoka (ok, most of them) tend to be pretty stiff, and tend to react to any sort of attack by lowering their weight and leaning backwards. Or at times they just charge forward or push forward.

This leads to to ways to create an opening, or take advantage of what is given to attempt a throw.
1.) Uke walks forward pushing, usually ayumi ashi style. Train for that by having uke do just that, move forward aggressively. You would be surprised how many people don't actually train for that opportunity. I see it from sankyu and nikyu level teenagers who qualify for nationals quite a bit.

2.) Attempt forward throw, reverse to rear when uke pulls backwards. If uke widens stance, use kouchi or ouchi gari, if narrower or steps forward, can use Osoto GAri/otoshi, sometimes Kosoto Gari

3.) All this presupposes that tori has a couple of throws he/she can do effectively, that tori has a usable grip, etc.

4.) Finally, consider circular movement to "set up" attacks rather than linear, in general.

This is all really good advice. For me personally, forward twitch to kosoto gake is the noob cannon. Once you learn how to do that well, it's really easy to throw almost anyone new because they all lean back and base out when you threaten a forward throw. It's funny, I actually almost never throw beginners forward because they never commit their weight forward, but I usually throw other black belts forward because they're (properly) coming forward being aggressive and grip fighting. Don't get discouraged if the big forward throws you spend a lot of time working on don't work much against newer guys, a lot of those require a certain movement pattern from uke that noobs just won't do even though it's correct (namely, coming forward, moving laterally as the grip fight, etc.)

 

[BKR]

This is all really good advice. For me personally, forward twitch to kosoto gake is the noob cannon. Once you learn how to do that well, it's really easy to throw almost anyone new because they all lean back and base out when you threaten a forward throw. It's funny, I actually almost never throw beginners forward because they never commit their weight forward, but I usually throw other black belts forward because they're (properly) coming forward being aggressive and grip fighting. Don't get discouraged if the big forward throws you spend a lot of time working on don't work much against newer guys, a lot of those require a certain movement pattern from uke that noobs just won't do even though it's correct (namely, coming forward, moving laterally as the grip fight, etc.)

yeah, that sort of "twitch" works very well on noobs, and a lot of non-noobs as well. My original judo teacher has special diabolical drills to break me and others of the habit of reacting to twitches and anything but "real" attacks in general. It was pretty simple, you did randori with him and he would twitch, you would react, and then get thrown very very hard to the tatami. Repeat until you don't react anymore...

That would be why I use ashi barai (and "gasp") Hiza Guruma/STKA on beginners/novices/intermediate judoka so much. In fact, with my own students, I can tell how much they progress by the degree of difficulty I have in using those throws on them. If I can still foot sweep them head high, that means I need to do it more until they stop making the fundamental movement errors that make it possible.

Then I have to get sneaky and distract them with other stuff to do the ashi barai et al.

 

[QingTian]

That would be why I use ashi barai (and "gasp") Hiza Guruma/STKA on beginners/novices/intermediate judoka so much.

Not sure that gasp was a dig at me, but 1) that is still different from a beginner being able to do the same to another beginner 2) typical novice Judoka act very differently from BJJ players new to Judo.

 

[Battle Beetle]

No, I'd say the lapel side is the stronger of the two, for competition at least. Less slack in the jacket.

My primary throw (used to be) Seoi Nage, and I almost always used the lapel side Ippon Seoi Nage (or Morote) to best success.

I agree, usually at first a beginner is taught the one with the sleeve grip, it's more of a classic variant. But lapel grip Seoi Nage is more efficient.

 

[BKR]

Not sure that gasp was a dig at me, but 1) that is still different from a beginner being able to do the same to another beginner 2) typical novice Judoka act very differently from BJJ players new to Judo.

No, not a dig at you...you think you are the only person who I've had that discussion with ? Not by a long shot...

The larger issue is learning Judo to learn judo, and the positive, long term effects of learning Judo (effective judo, not demonstration Judo) on a person's grappling skill, not to learn specific "judo moves" to be able to defeat a narrow range of opponent. Plus, the personal development aspects as well, of course.

I tell my students all the time, we are training to be able to handle skilled opponents, not white belts or other essentially unskilled opponents. So we have to train that way with the long term goal in mind. This can lead to difficulties in dealing with stiff, bent over, choppy-moving/pulling backwars all the time, defensive opponents (or training partners, LOL) in the short term.

I don't think you'd disagree with that. But what happens is, people want to focus on this or that technique (which is of course OK in context), rather than the process of doing Judo effectively.

For example, throwing people while moving in a circle, or straight to the side, is highly effective/efficient because the human body/mind is less capable of effective defense to the side or circling (applying torque). But how much of that do you see in normal training of beginners/novices? And which throw is able to be applied , without having to turn, moving in a circle, with no lifting of uke required ?

Anyway, I'm here for discussion,not to bust balls. I don't claim to have all the answers, or to know eveything about teaching/learning/doing Judo. I try to keep an open mind and keep learning.

 

[BKR]

I agree, usually at first a beginner is taught the one with the sleeve grip, it's more of a classic variant. But lapel grip Seoi Nage is more efficient.

True, because of the whole hikite thing. It's fine to learn sleeeve side. I usually teach left from right grip or vice versa (depending on if student is lefty or righty) at the same time. It's a pretty easy way to get people turning to their non-primary side, which is really, really critical. Gotta be able to turn both ways without any heartburn from primary side grip.

 

[Billz]

Thought you all would enjoy this (since the discussion is on lapel-side seoi nage). Skip to 0:25.

[yt]2cdaGQhzhkc[/yt]

Edit...hmm, apparently I don't know how to embed anymore. Click here for the vid.

Question: Is it better to have the lapel grip over uke's arm in a left on right situation like this?

 

[Russky]

Question: Is it better to have the lapel grip over uke's arm in a left on right situation like this?

Only for the right side seoi nage. Otherwise inside grip is usually prefered.

 

[QingTian]

Inside vs. outside for seoi depends on the player and how he does seoi. You can find examples of outstanding players for both, like Koga for inside and Inokuma for outside.

 

[BKR]

Thought you all would enjoy this (since the discussion is on lapel-side seoi nage). Skip to 0:25.

[yt]2cdaGQhzhkc[/yt]

Edit...hmm, apparently I don't know how to embed anymore. Click here for the vid.

Question: Is it better to have the lapel grip over uke's arm in a left on right situation like this?

Video removed by user...

Basic kenka yotsu (opposite grips situation) is to have your lapel grip inside. There are several generally known methods to get there, and how to recover/jockey for inside position.

There are other methods of gripping and positioning and movement for working from the outside, over the back, around waist, etc.

But the basic is inside lapel position...

 

[Kbits]

So...Batsugun applies to ranks beyond 1st Dan as well? I did not know that....



PS: 0:15 seconds....sweetest sort of hip throw

 

[Uchi Mata]

So...Batsugun applies to ranks beyond 1st Dan as well? I did not know that....



PS: 0:15 seconds....sweetest sort of hip throw

I've never heard of that in the US, but I'd prefer it. I'm not learning any more kata, but I bet I could throw enough shodans to get my nidan (finally).

 

[Kbits]

I've never heard of that in the US, but I'd prefer it. I'm not learning any more kata, but I bet I could throw enough shodans to get my nidan (finally).

Pretty sure I could too.

These clips are from Ivaylo Ivanov's Osaka camp / batsugan which a few of us are thinking of attending.

http://yagadome.com/camps/

I'm tired of NGB politics...and having just come back from Japan, I know for shit sure that I can turn over quite a few of their dan grades. I'm just curious to know if a Kodokan dan rank is automatically ratified by other NGBs (surely it has to be - it's the fucking Kodokan, FFS) and IF there is still a requirement to showcase kata (the answer should be no).

 

[Uchi Mata]

Pretty sure I could too.

These clips are from Ivaylo Ivanov's Osaka camp / batsugan which a few of us are thinking of attending.

http://yagadome.com/camps/

I'm tired of NGB politics...and having just come back from Japan, I know for shit sure that I can turn over quite a few of their dan grades. I'm just curious to know if a Kodokan dan rank is automatically ratified by other NGBs (surely it has to be - it's the fucking Kodokan, FFS) and IF there is still a requirement to showcase kata (the answer should be no).

If the Kodokan says I'm a nidan, I don't really care what anyone else says. If you have a shodan through your national federation that should be enough to enter any tournament or coach or whatever, no? If so, call yourself whatever the Kodokan calls you and f*$& all if anyone questions it.

 

[Kbits]

I have my brown (ikkyu) through NGB but do not want to do the slow crawl of accumulating x points in y time-frame from z activities (which are all widely distributed apart due local vagaries); I'd rather just do batsugun and be done with it.

But yeah, I figure if it's good enough for the kodokan...fuck the rest.