ok enough games.. gimme lomo vs mikey garcia NOW!!!

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

If he isn't "outgrowing" these divisions then why didn't he fight Rigo at 126? Chew on that for a bit.

I'm not going to deny that Loma is in a tough position, because his natural weight doesn't really have the talent required to test him. As far as his next opponent, I think anything at 130 is kinda pointless honestly. Its a weak division. I don't really care to see him fight Berchelt, much less Davis. He needs to move up to 135 if he really wants to make fights that are even remotely interesting.

No, you can chew on reality as to what happened. Rigo backed out after agreeing to fight him at 126. He stated it was their offer (money), which he had already agreed to, and then it became the weight/size difference.

Guillermo Rigondeaux agrees to fight Vasyl Lomachenko at 126lbs | Boxing News | Sky Sports

I couldn't care less what divisions you believe are weak. Lightweight and Junior Welterweight aren't any better. His team is asking who he should fight (not necessarily next given that the Mikey fight can't happen next, he already has a fight scheduled at 140). Over 42,000 votes and still 4 days left before the poll is closed.

 

[CastletonSnob]

If Loma fights him and wins, where does he rank P4P all time with wins over Rigondeaux and Garcia?

 

[moosaev]

Loma fighting Mikey is like Crawford fighting an absolutely huge Light Middleweight who campaigns at Middleweight, too.

That's quite unfair.

Kinda like Loma-Rigo?

 

[moosaev]

No, you can chew on reality as to what happened. Rigo backed out after agreeing to fight him at 126. He stated it was their offer (money), which he had already agreed to, and then it became the weight/size difference.

Guillermo Rigondeaux agrees to fight Vasyl Lomachenko at 126lbs | Boxing News | Sky Sports

I couldn't care less what divisions you believe are weak. Lightweight and Junior Welterweight aren't any better. His team is asking who he should fight (not necessarily next given that the Mikey fight can't happen next, he already has a fight scheduled at 140). Over 42,000 votes and still 4 days left before the poll is closed.

So are you claiming Rigo preferred to fight Loma at 130? If Loma can easily make 126, regardless of previous understandings, why not make the fight at 126? Dont pretend that Loma is above the bullshit boxing shananigans. He dragged Rigo up 2 weight classes because he could. The Loma everyone wants to portray is a guy that wants challenges, in reality he's just like every other boxer out there. Nothing wrong with that, but lets not pretend he walks on water.

 

[JayE]

Loma fighting Mikey is like Crawford fighting an absolutely huge Light Middleweight who campaigns at Middleweight, too.

That's quite unfair.

lol, what? No, he's not that much bigger than Lomachenko. Garcia is undersized at JWW and belongs at LW. Lomachenko isn't small for SFW (and has an Olympic gold medal at a weight only 2-3 pounds shy of the LW limit). At most they're separated by a single weight class, and if Lomachenko wants to be the all-time great that so many are already touting him as, he's probably going to have to beat a genuinely good fighter who is a little bit bigger than him at some point.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

So are you claiming Rigo preferred to fight Loma at 130? If Loma can easily make 126, regardless of previous understandings, why not make the fight at 126? Dont pretend that Loma is above the bullshit boxing shananigans. He dragged Rigo up 2 weight classes because he could. The Loma everyone wants to portray is a guy that wants challenges, in reality he's just like every other boxer out there. Nothing wrong with that, but lets not pretend he walks on water.

Assuming Loma could've still comfortably made 126 then they could have compromised. That said, Loma wasn't going to move back down to 126 to fight the same guy that backed out of a fight that could've been made at 126 when he (Loma) was still there in 2015, not to mention Arum said it would be crazy to move down for a guy that brings little to the table. He was dared by Loma's manager to move up to 130 to fight for his title, if he was serious about it, and Rigo obliged. That's the fight we got. I posted that I wanted to see it at 126 if it was to happen at all. So, I called it for what it was, a physical mismatch on paper. Most expected Loma would use his physicality and impose his size by pressure fighting him and looking to bully him around, myself included. He was outboxed instead so the size difference wasn't a major factor in there. Rigo's age, inactivity (rounds) and style were more significant than the size difference.

Loma's been calling Mikey out so I expect him to do everything in his power and then some to secure that fight at 135. Mikey's plan is to grab the title off of Lipinets at 140 and then head back down to 135 to fight Linares. We'll see how badly both want this fight in 2018.

 

[Noctilux]

So are you claiming Rigo preferred to fight Loma at 130? If Loma can easily make 126, regardless of previous understandings, why not make the fight at 126? Dont pretend that Loma is above the bullshit boxing shananigans. He dragged Rigo up 2 weight classes because he could. The Loma everyone wants to portray is a guy that wants challenges, in reality he's just like every other boxer out there. Nothing wrong with that, but lets not pretend he walks on water.

Dude, this version of Loma beats any version of Rigo, younger, stronger, heavier, with balls, or nestled in Fidel's lap. Stop pretending the outcome would have been any different at 126 or 226. He clowns him, at any weight, any age, any venue. You clearly established you don't like him. Lets move on.

 

[moosaev]

Dude, this version of Loma beats any version of Rigo, younger, stronger, heavier, with balls, or nestled in Fidel's lap. Stop pretending the outcome would have been any different at 126 or 226. He clowns him, at any weight, any age, any venue. You clearly established you don't like him. Lets move on.

Whether Loma wouldve beaten Rigo at 126 is entirely besides the point. I'm addressing the narrative around Loma's supposed stellar resume and the idea that he uniquely looks for challenges and is above boxing politics. I have no beef with Loma, he's a phenomenal fighter and seems like a classy dude. I have beef with the mythology and hagiography that is developing around him in real time.

 

[moosaev]

Assuming Loma could've still comfortably made 126 then they could have compromised. That said, Loma wasn't going to move back down to 126 to fight the same guy that backed out of a fight that could've been made at 126 when he (Loma) was still there in 2015, not to mention Arum said it would be crazy to move down for a guy that brings little to the table. He was dared by Loma's manager to move up to 130 to fight for his title, if he was serious about it, and Rigo obliged.

Now we're saying stuff like "assuming" Loma can make the weight at 126 and exploring what business conditions it'll take for him to move back down there. What happened to the narrative that Loma is moving up for challenges and he isnt really "outgrowing" the weight classes? You cant have it both ways. Is Loma outgrowing the weight or did he force Rigo to move up 2 weight classes? It has to be one of those options.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Now we're saying stuff like "assuming" Loma can make the weight at 126 and exploring what business conditions it'll take for him to move back down there. What happened to the narrative that Loma is moving up for challenges and he isnt really "outgrowing" the weight classes? You cant have it both ways. Is Loma outgrowing the weight or did he force Rigo to move up 2 weight classes? It has to be one of those options.

Let me clear up your confusion. Rigo called out Loma for months demanding the fight as if he was somehow entitled to it. He asked for the fight to be at 126 and the answer was no from Bob Arum directly. Why? He brought nothing to the table aside from a P4P ranking which Loma also had (and a higher one on all lists at that). Check Loma's fight night weights and what he's been weighing in at over his last couple fights. It was well known that his plan was to move up to Lightweight. In the business/sport of professional boxing the A-side sets the terms. If the B-side doesn't like those terms then they can look elsewhere if the A-side won't budge. Rigo was never forced into anything. He saw $ and a chance to get Bob back. He grabbed the opportunity and it didn't work out. It happens. Just look at Khan & Brook. Rigo knew that his chances were slim but decided to go in anyway to at least try and play the spoiler. Was he looking to cash out? It would appear so.

You do understand that Loma was a full grown man by the time he had turned pro, right? The only way it's possible for Loma to outgrow a weight class is to put on too much muscle (in his case since he's a gym rat) or age so much that the cut is no longer feasible. When you see fighters moving up many weight divisions it's gradually over the course of their career, typically, and because they started early (often as mid to late teenagers) while they were still filling out.

To conclude, Rigo himself said that the weight was not the issue before the fight and he also stated it again after the fight. He should've taken the fight at 126 in 2015 with the rehydration clause for Loma and the 500k + the additional 500k win bonus. You don't always get a second opportunity particularly when the people you're trying to negotiate with despise you and the feeling is mutual.

 

[Seano]

If Loma fights him and wins, where does he rank P4P all time with wins over Rigondeaux and Garcia?

I like Mikey Garcia and favor him against Lomachenko but you need a better name than Garcia or Rigondeaux on your resume to be ranked anywhere near the top 20.

 

[JayE]

I don't at all believe he is underdized at JWW. His natural size is smaller-moderate sized for JWW. Consider Broner is a big JWW -


Lomachenko isn't small for SFW, he's a smaller-moderate sized Super Featherweight who can make Featherweight easily (-12lbs from walk around weight). A moderate sized SFW is someone like Jason Sosa who was the bigger man naturally than Loma.

The Olympic Gold Medal was not 2lbs shy, it was 3 pounds shy of the LW limit, at 132lbs. Also, these were same day weigh ins where he wouldn't rehydrate much. Also, you only have to take a look at his fights in 2011-2013 to see just how much smaller he was naturally to his opposition there, the overwhelming majority of whom are now fighting at Light Welterweight other than Felix Verdejo who himself is considerably bigger than Lomachenko and cutting hard to make 135.
Lomachenko walks around at 138 and with a frame as small as his, he is tiny at 135, let's get that clear.

'Move up in weight to prove yourself as a Great' - I think you're right, but that mostly applies if you're a weight cutter like Crawford. It is going to be such an uphill battle for him to become an ATG, what he can feasibly achieve though is being in the conversation for being 'the best ever'.

I don't think there's enough great names out there for him to prove he is an ATG.
The only way he would be able to be an ATG is if Conlan and Stevenson reach their potential and Lomachenko manages to beat these guys providing they are close enough to their primes, whilst continuing to beat everyone. By the time Conlan and Stevenson come close to peaking, Lomachenko would probably be over the hill.

Where are you getting the claim that Lomachenko walks around at 138? 138 was his fight night weight way back when he fought Russell Jr. at FW almost four years ago. Since then I think it's clear he has added mass (not some massive amount, of course, but some which is normal considering he moved up in weight and is getting older; I think it's likely he is most comfortable weighing north of 140 on fight night nowadays). About four years ago, Garcia weighed 142 pounds on fight night against Roman Martinez (meaning that around 4 years ago, Lomachenko and Garcia were 4 pounds apart on fight night). Now, Garcia is a guy who has struggled to keep his weight down, particularly after his long hiatus, but since his return he has clearly said that he's comfortable with the 135 pound weight and we will almost certainly see him back there regardless of how the Lipinets fight goes (likely a clear win for Garcia).

I think it was pretty obvious that Broner outsized Garcia when they fought, and for all of Broner's stupidity, when he actually puts in the effort in camp and keeps his weight at a reasonable place, he doesn't struggle with his cut down to 140. As I see it, Garcia is clearly a bigger man than Lomachenko, but the size difference is not massive, by any means. It's hardly unreasonable that they fight. In the meantime, the only genuinely interesting opponent for Lomachenko at SFW is Berchelt (but that fight probably doesn't get made as Arum isn't going to work with HBO who likely have a deal with Berchelt).

 

[Dr. Will]

Where are you getting the claim that Lomachenko walks around at 138? 138 was his fight night weight way back when he fought Russell Jr. at FW almost four years ago. Since then I think it's clear he has added mass (not some massive amount, of course, but some which is normal considering he moved up in weight and is getting older; I think it's likely he is most comfortable weighing north of 140 on fight night nowadays). About four years ago, Garcia weighed 142 pounds on fight night against Roman Martinez (meaning that around 4 years ago, Lomachenko and Garcia were 4 pounds apart on fight night). Now, Garcia is a guy who has struggled to keep his weight down, particularly after his long hiatus, but since his return he has clearly said that he's comfortable with the 135 pound weight and we will almost certainly see him back there regardless of how the Lipinets fight goes (likely a clear win for Garcia).

I think it was pretty obvious that Broner outsized Garcia when they fought, and for all of Broner's stupidity, when he actually puts in the effort in camp and keeps his weight at a reasonable place, he doesn't struggle with his cut down to 140. As I see it, Garcia is clearly a bigger man than Lomachenko, but the size difference is not massive, by any means. It's hardly unreasonable that they fight. In the meantime, the only genuinely interesting opponent for Lomachenko at SFW is Berchelt (but that fight probably doesn't get made as Arum isn't going to work with HBO who likely have a deal with Berchelt).

Nice, balanced post.

Loma said many times on recent interviews he walks around at 138. Doesn't seem like a liar. Especially not over something irrelevant. He came in at an all-time heavy of 139lbs against Sosa as HBO records (probably had a heavier meal than usual, weighing 1lb more).

This is why I've been saying the Loma vs Rigo fight wouldn't have made any notable difference if it was at 126 because at the end of the day, Rigo would come in at around 130 and Loma would rehydrate to 138 maximum like he did in FW.
Loma is a FW who moved up to SFW without putting on any mass at all - people don't recognize this.

Mikey can make LW just fine, just like Lomachenko can make FW just fine. That's the point, their specific weight class difference is 2 weight classes. The problem is, it will take many years for the boxing world to catch onto this truth. Maybe someone will mention it on a forum in 20 years time and it'll get the credit it deserves.
This is why if Loma beats Mikey convincingly, it is a truly ATG win and better than any win on Mayweather's resume for example.

Rehydration weights are one thing, but that in itself is not the ultimate story teller for size.
How, you might ask...
well look at Gamboa vs Crawford. Gamboa came in I think around 150 but we all know he was undersized at LW and had no business in the ring with the HUGE Crawford who was only a few pounds heavier on fight night. Then look at Mayweather at welterweight. He probably weighed 149lbs on fight night and his opponents much more but Mayweather was not 'small' at welterweight. Pacquiao who is naturally the smaller man (he looks naturally notably smaller) rehydrates to 150's.
I brought up Nonito Donaire too in the other thread.
Garcia has been open to fighting at 147 - his frame allows him to both put on and carry weight efficiently.
Broner is a big LWW, and I saw Mikey as being moderate sized at LWW. He definitely looked like he belonged there. 3 of his last 4 fights will have been at LWW after the Lipinets fight.

I agree, the fight can happen, it's like the Light Welterweight sized Crawford (not a Crawford physically adjusted and grown into to 154-160) fighting Canelo during his 155 reign. Doable. Except, Mikey is better than Canelo.

I'd like to see the Berchelt fight because Berchelt has proven himself to be a decent fighter for the resume. Probably will someone like Machado though.