ortegas game plan, wtf was all that about?

BJJ_Rage said:
Hard to grapple specially when the grappler does very little to grapple.

If you want to grapple, staying in the pocket and trading is not the best idea. Khabib Maia and countless grapplers have shown what to do if you want to grapple, what Ortega did certainly is not the best strategy to grapple
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Here is the thing man. T-City wanted to grapple, he wanted it bad. He attempted 11 take downs. He wasn't competent enough in the striking to break through Holloway's defenses and he wasn't competent enough in wrestling to hit a blast double. That's a bad combination of short comings if a guy like Max is hammering out 100 strikes per round. Its not the Ortega didn't understand he had to grapple, he couldn't bro. We saw the same thing when Maia fought Tyron, he didn't have the striking or wrestling to break through Tyron's defenses. Khabib is a freak but he also benefits from fighting in a division with mostly strikers. He has very little competition in way of wrestling. If he moved to 170 he wouldn't be undefeated.
 
IBlockPunchesWithMyFace said:
He has a real MMA camp. You're acting like Holloway is a super easy guy to figure out in the moment. Truth is, Ortega needs to work on his takedowns and offensive wrestling. If you look at his stats before the fight, you would have had the same takeaway. Shit, Max comes from a very small camp and so does Stipe. Sometimes fighters like a smaller environment where they can be the main focus during their camp rather then being in a gym like AKA where a lot of camps are going on at once and the coaching staff are working on everyone. Bigger doesn't always equal better when it comes to gym, it usually just means more vets and names that you can spar with or get advice from.
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Not sure how you were able to read so much into a two sentence statement I made. I didn’t say go to a super camp—I said go to a real camp with an actual mma coach.
 
MusterX said:
Here is the thing man. T-City wanted to grapple, he wanted it bad. He attempted 11 take downs. He wasn't competent enough in the striking to break through Holloway's defenses and he wasn't competent enough in wrestling to hit a blast double. That's a bad combination of short comings if a guy like Max is hammering out 100 strikes per round. Its not the Ortega didn't understand he had to grapple, he couldn't bro. We saw the same thing when Maia fought Tyron, he didn't have the striking or wrestling to break through Tyron's defenses. Khabib is a freak but he also benefits from fighting in a division with mostly strikers. He has very little competition in way of wrestling. If he moved to 170 he wouldn't be undefeated.
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I completely agree.

T-City isn’t stupid, his takedowns aren’t that good but his overall game is dangerous. He has power, uses a variety of strikes and wicked finishing holds, that said, he fought someone who can pick him apart at a DISTANCE which makes any takedown attempt more difficult since you’ve got more ground to cover.

During portions of the fight Ortega was in the pocket (and close enough for a takedown) he simple couldn’t do it. He was so tired from all the physical and mental exertion of defending his face and body from punches that his clinch and takedowns became telegraphed and sloppy. To make a long story short, it wasn’t a strategic problem, it was simply the case of being overmatched.
 
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Max defensive wrestling may be the best in the game right now. Even when Ortega got a clear takedown, Max just popped up.
 
i don't get why people keep going on about this. ortega actually fought a good fight, he was just outclassed. he had head movement, he was landing well at times at the beginning of the fight, he was trying TDs, he was doing the right things. the only "game plan" that would have changed things would have been if he'd pulled a starnes and stopped engaging.
 
It was the homer simpson strategy, unfortunately for him this time he went up against a better fighter with superior technique, great stamina, and just as much durability/toughness; his dredrick tatum, if you will

 
MusterX said:
Here is the thing man. T-City wanted to grapple, he wanted it bad. He attempted 11 take downs. He wasn't competent enough in the striking to break through Holloway's defenses and he wasn't competent enough in wrestling to hit a blast double. That's a bad combination of short comings if a guy like Max is hammering out 100 strikes per round. Its not the Ortega didn't understand he had to grapple, he couldn't bro. We saw the same thing when Maia fought Tyron, he didn't have the striking or wrestling to break through Tyron's defenses. Khabib is a freak but he also benefits from fighting in a division with mostly strikers. He has very little competition in way of wrestling. If he moved to 170 he wouldn't be undefeated.
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this guy gets it.
 
90% jiu jitsu and 10% wrestling may have worked 15 years ago when people were showing up to fight with like 3 years of training. But the gracie approach is now outdated - its good for a straigh up jiu jitsu match but in MMA its too specialized, way too many hours spent training jiu jitsu subs and escapes.

In reality for effective mma grappling you need like 75% wrestling and 25% jiu jitsu - basically just enough jiu jitsu to get out of bad situations and may be getting 1 or 2 subs down cold.

Ortega and Maia are gate keeper status, and so will every one else be whose game is super jiu jitsu heavy
 
You just got to give credit to Max Holloway. He's a great fighter. No shame in losing to him in that fashion.
 
A-Boss said:
90% jiu jitsu and 10% wrestling may have worked 15 years ago when people were showing up to fight with like 3 years of training. But the gracie approach is now outdated - its good for a straigh up jiu jitsu match but in MMA its too specialized, way too many hours spent training jiu jitsu subs and escapes.

In reality for effective mma grappling you need like 75% wrestling and 25% jiu jitsu - basically just enough jiu jitsu to get out of bad situations and may be getting 1 or 2 subs down cold.

Ortega and Maia are gate keeper status, and so will every one else be whose game is super jiu jitsu heavy
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Gatekeeper might be a little strong but I agree with your point. The ideal mix is like 70% wrestling (takedowns, control) and 30% Jiu Jitsu, with more an emphasis on escapes and for subs, the armbar, choke and a hailmary heel hook.
 
What did you expect from him?

His style is always staying in the pocket and hoping your opponent doesn't beat you up so badly you can land a counter, or hit a TD and submit them.
 
A-Boss said:
90% jiu jitsu and 10% wrestling may have worked 15 years ago when people were showing up to fight with like 3 years of training. But the gracie approach is now outdated - its good for a straigh up jiu jitsu match but in MMA its too specialized, way too many hours spent training jiu jitsu subs and escapes.

In reality for effective mma grappling you need like 75% wrestling and 25% jiu jitsu - basically just enough jiu jitsu to get out of bad situations and may be getting 1 or 2 subs down cold.

Ortega and Maia are gate keeper status, and so will every one else be whose game is super jiu jitsu heavy
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Some wrestlers even go more like 90/10 where the 90 is their wrestling and the 10 is BJJ defense. They don't even try any subs, they just know enough defense so they can get top control and ground and pound without getting sub'ed. In the case of Ortega he isn't a wrestler though so he would definitely want to work with some wrestlers IMO. That or take up the style of take downs that Jon Jones uses and that's mostly trips in the clinch. Jones trip game is bad ass, but that's also wrestling, Roman Greco I think. Either way, whatever style he likes, he has to change camps and I bet you he doesn't. Too loyal.
 
Kneeuinthenutz said:
What did you expect from him?

His style is always staying in the pocket and hoping your opponent doesn't beat you up so badly you can land a counter, or hit a TD and submit them.
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Its worked for Ortega so many times before, the guy was 14-0. I'm sure he was quite confident coming into the fight because nobody has ever been able to withstand him. Look what he did to Cub Swanson. Cub tried the same standing strategy as Max and he danced on the outside and threw strikes, Ortega just grabbed him and choked him. Cub didn't have the pressure and volume to stop Ortega so I'm sure Ortega thought the same would be true for Max.
 
LockardTheGOAT said:
He thought he was the man after he finished Frankie as quickly as he did. He found out last night what a fluke victory that was.
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Lol not a fluke. Great timing on the elbow then kept composure and finished him. Dude was undefeated before he fought Max, you don’t get there by fluke
 
Probably should’ve implemented more takedowns but it wasn’t that bad of a game plan. There’s no real blueprint on how to beat Max yet anyway. Also, he did hurt him in the 3rd round, it’s just Max has ridiculous cardio.
 
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