Positioning and what it means to you - Pt. 1:

[Tug]

Damn I need that next part on distance

 

[Phlog]

Excellent read Sin, your doing right to build something.

I've always had difficulty keeping the whole concept of positioning in mind without the edges sliding out of focus, I think because the word position describes so much. Nearly everything. It's like trying to dress an octopus.

I look forward to the time your fighters hit the mainstream and I can tell friends proudly, I've communicated with that dude.

Your words have made me a better fighter and aid to those who I support fighting.

 

[Sinister]

Well, WillW was onto something when he said positioning IS boxing. It is. To be able to hit and not get hit back. Good positioning enables that, bad positioning compromises it. It just really sucks that very good methods for establishing this have been lost.

It is exciting about possibly displaying this stuff. But it's also kind of nerve-racking. Lots of pressure, and you can't account for certain variables (like whether a fighter will even show up on the day of the fight, and by show up I mean mentally and emotionally), most of which you can't control. But when it does it looks good.

I'll give an example that's not my own. I've long been an admirer of Gabriel Rosado. The year he won 3 straight, and HOW he did it, I felt he was the most improved fighter in the Sport coming from getting caught cold in one round against Angulo. So then the kid accepts fights he probably shouldn't, showing admirable bravery and heart, but hits a losing streak. Then he does this BKB thing, and honestly I thought he'd grind out a decision against the always-tough Vera (same one who people thought beat Chavez Jr. in their first fight), but he did this instead because he and Billy Briscoe understand positioning:



And by got to see I mean I was at that event, at rin...er uh, circle-side. And was in it after the fight, I'm the dude in all black wearing the black hat.

 

[PivotPunch]

How straight should your back be?
At one hand there are guys who have obviously bad posture such as Robert Guerrero sometimes but then there are (mostly Eastern European fighters) who stand so straight it it looks almost just as bad like Mateusz Masternak or this guy who fights Butterbean
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gZ9bN9Wamw
They stand so straight that their punching form looks awkward and they look overall stiff because of it so how straight should it be?
Joe Louis had a slight crouch or today Golovkin but apparently that's still straight enough since both have/had good positioning and always were in position to punch

 

[Sinister]

Louis had gigantic and overly muscular shoulders, smaller chest comparitively. It's not about being in position TO punch, it's about being in position to deliver force, and both do that well-enough. But their postural limitations aren't on purpose. They have good posture for what their bodies are capable of. Both Louis and Golovkin compensate the same way, shifting forward further.

Louis Monaco is an interesting character. When he takes a beginning position, it's very good. But look what happens when he throws or has to defend a punch. The thing that's wrong isn't the straightness of his back, it's everything else. He LOOKS like a guy who knows how to LOOK like he knows how to fight, but doesn't. However, his whole career was defined by one moment, in a fight with Buster Douglas he accidentally hit Douglas after the bell, and Buster hit the ropes like he'd been shot in the face. The one thing Monaco could do, was hit very hard despite hit foot positioning being God awful.

 

[PivotPunch]

Louis' crouch wasn't on purpose isn't that the thing about the Blackburn crouch being a crouch?
And I get that posture is important but it's just strange because not only Golovkin and Louis but Marciano as well, Frazier fought out of a slight crouch and even Wladimir Klitschko doesn't appear to stand with a very straight back Vitali had a straighter back but also was the weaker puncher out of the 2.
So is it just a thing of everyone having a different body and standing straight for what the built of your body is and less of a thing of one size fits all?

 

[Sinister]

Blackburn's "Crouch" can be a misleading term. Crouching in and of itself isn't suggestive of a curled back. Crouching is done primarily with the hips and knees. I explain that in more detail in this thread.

What's interesting about most of the fighters you named with the exception of Marciano, is that they all had spinal curvature. Frazier, Wlad, Golovkin, all had curved shoulders, as did Louis. What that means is when they get old, they kind of develop a hump. Louis did and so did Frazier. Wlad and Golovkin likely will as well. Wlad has a very craned neck and that has a lot to do with his lack of punch-resistance and MIGHT have something to do with his clumsiness.

So it's not having a straight back that is problematic, it's more the question of "how straight can your back be with your chin down." If the answer is "not that straight" then you must compensate. Another thing those men have in common with the exception of Golovkin and Marciano is they've all been knocked out or hurt very badly in fights, and particularly by punches that jarred their necks. Guys who don't get knocked out or hurt badly, their necks don't move much. Marciano, he slouched somewhat in the ring, but he wasn't without the ability to conjure good posture:

Those aren't bad at all for a guy who made a career out of over-committing. Chin floats a little but typically remained behind the shoulder and not TOO far from the collarbone. Combine that with a head made of granite, and you have a guy known for being difficult to hurt. Shane Mosley also fit into this category, notorious stiff spine. Big power, difficult to hurt.

 

[Babba]

^ love stuff like this.

hey sin when you fought did you ever analyze yourself like this?

also, these anomalities/differences in bodies - i am having some trouble discerning how much of it can actually be changed. for example, the craned neck - that is just their natural posture of how their skeleton and muscles are strictly genetical. or is this something which you would stretch, exercise et c?

 

[Sinister]

Unfortunately no, I didn't really learn how to analyze THIS deeply until after my career (as a sparring partner, really) was winding down.

I once had an argument with Merqui Sosa about whether or not things like this can be changed because one of his fighters is very pigeon-toed and he went off on me once "N*GGA DAS JUST HOW HE FEET IS!! JU CAN'T CHANGE DA FEET!!" I thought that was a bit biased coming from Merqui (left):

So...I give my fighters physical evaluations. I did one today of a new guy who is duck-footed and has EXTREMELY stiff hips. Some of this stuff is degenerative bone disorders that are likely genetic, but as trainers we still have to do everything we can to give a person full range-of-motion without pain and with minimal risk. Well, I think that's our job, some people think you just yell at a guy until he either quits or SORT OF looks like you want. I try to fix the problems. So we do theraputic and in-depth warm-ups to alleviate certain conditions, but it takes a LONG time.

The Estern Bloc is way ahead of of the West on this stuff because they actually do physical education as it SHOULD be. You know when your grandparents would tell you to sit up straight, not to slouch, not to curl your back when you bend, all that stuff? Turns out they were right.

 

[Babba]

hahaha yeah, they were right actually.

it's very fascinating, i have started seeing people in the light of their different physical detoriations like stiff hips, one shoulder slouched, some muscle is larger because another is doing all the work so they are injury prone etc. i think this way of thinking about it is really underdeveloped even in the best trainers, i know this for a fact some places.

merquai sosa had comical legs though but like youve said previously it gave some advantages too. although his condition looks purely genetical but probably a hard straight right.

 

[Sinister]

Yes, you're right, about trainers and about Sosa.

Trainers - With the watering-down of boxing training, trainer work started to be out-sourced, which is why we have conditioning coaches, massage therapists, nutritionists, 8 different people to condition one athlete. Back in the day you had the trainer and the assistant trainer. Trainer took it as their duty to know as much as anyone and in the cases of the really good trainers, more.

Sosa - Being knock-kneed and primarily internally rotated, yes his straight punches were very hard. He actually didn't develop a very hard hook until he was a Pro and learned how to throw the rising hook, which I think Pat Versace taught him in New York. But one thing about Sosa, good back posture:

 

[Babba]

fantastic back posture. those erectors are so developed. he probably had pretty good hip mobility. the flat back and great erectors, no overly curved lower back that makes his abs weak so he cant hold it straight.

interesting hook, i suppose it takes advantage of the trajectory from the starting position being kind of straight.

looking forward to your writing about distance.

 

[Sinister]

That's not a hook, it's an uppercut. If you want to see him throwing the rising hook, it's in this fight:



You'll know it when you hear Al Bernstein talking about how much his hook as improved. Basically he learned to rotate his trunk and keep his elbow close to his torso, driving the hook forward instead of flipping the elbow into a slapping motion. But Sosa could throw the Cuban hook as well.

The next thread isn't going to be ABOUT distance, I'm just going to touch on that aspect. It's going to be about positioning.

P.S. - Before anyone says, yes Sosa DID give up good positioning quite a bit when brawling, but he'd admit that to you if you came here and asked him. He maintains his biggest flaw as a fighter was having no patience, he'd start out well, then turn everything into a war with no regard for getting hit.

I'll add this in. Sosa doesn't box like he shadowboxes. I've noticed this with a lot of fighters. He shadowboxes like a skilled technician:



But then he gets into the ring and goes apeshit.

 

[crossFTW]

Yo Sin, thanks for taking the time to do this. Very interesting as usual.
According to Toney, Sosa hit him the hardest p4p, made him see triple for a few rounds. Sam peter hit him harder but also was twice as big.

also, how did you like the BKB ring/circle/pit-thing (what do they even call it??)
personally i still prefer a classic ring.

 

[Sinister]

Me, too. But it is interesting to see a guy like Rosado do what he does without the ropes.

 

[PivotPunch]

And another thing as simple as it may sound but how do you block body shots while keeping good posture? I don't see how it's possible without dropping your arms

 

[Bubblun]

Louis had gigantic and overly muscular shoulders, smaller chest comparitively. It's not about being in position TO punch, it's about being in position to deliver force, and both do that well-enough. But their postural limitations aren't on purpose. They have good posture for what their bodies are capable of. Both Louis and Golovkin compensate the same way, shifting forward further.

Louis Monaco is an interesting character. When he takes a beginning position, it's very good. But look what happens when he throws or has to defend a punch. The thing that's wrong isn't the straightness of his back, it's everything else. He LOOKS like a guy who knows how to LOOK like he knows how to fight, but doesn't. However, his whole career was defined by one moment, in a fight with Buster Douglas he accidentally hit Douglas after the bell, and Buster hit the ropes like he'd been shot in the face. The one thing Monaco could do, was hit very hard despite hit foot positioning being God awful.

man, truly amazing thread.

could you expand a little about having broad muscolar shoulders and small torso?
i have that kind of build, not exactly like Louis, and i feel it is not great to be a slick boxer.

 

[giancana]

this threat is awesome, watchind defense now not only the movemnts of slipping,weaving and rolling etc but vrom the viewpoint of positioning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ct2jCu7y9Y

I think thats why Nicoline Locche is hard to hit he knows his position in relation to his opponent and therefore can deduce which punches his opponent can use to touch him and tehrefore predict themm begins at 5min00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5Pw2elzBik

Jersey Joe Walcott looks amating too, at 2min03 he is in the Corner and Marciano goes right at him ,like Loche he positions his body in away that limits the amounts of pucnhes that can hit him, so he can anticipate it

 

[Cyclone Mike]

And another thing as simple as it may sound but how do you block body shots while keeping good posture? I don't see how it's possible without dropping your arms

Dip your elevation so that the punch meets your elbow and you can pop back up with a nice counter.

Merqui is P4P the most unintentionally funny guy I've met. Merqui has forrest gump legs, but he moves well on them and he told me that your hands are for hitting and defense comes from the hips and feet.

 

[WillW]

Hes still got it

Also Great BKB fight. Always a sucker for those changes to see how it affects how the game is played. You can see a lot better without the pesky ropes/corner getting into your view.

It would be interesting to see your take on how you plan for the adjustments that need to be made for their not being ropes/corner and the circle vs. the square.