Senator Bernie Sanders introduce new Single-Payer Health Care bill

bobgeese said:
Fun fact, she got her start in politics by fucking an old man so she'd get a cushy job where she didn't do shit and got paid 100k.


But, I'm sure she cares about tax paying Americans.
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your hero Trump inherited his wealth. Are we really going to talk about merit?
 
Orgasmo said:
Healthcare should be a right? You have a right to other people's labor, products and services since when?
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In the civilized world, basically since the 1960s, when the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights was signed, marking a significant milestone in the development of the Second-generation human rights.

In backward countries like the US, Palau and Botswana some of these rights have not yet been implemented. Nonetheless, their nationals still get some things. For example, they have the right to be protected by the labor, products and services provided by the police and the military, which they pay through taxes.

If this bill passes, the US will join the rest of the developed (and a significant part of the non-developed) world. Better late than never...
 
Alejo said:
In the civilized world, basically since the 1960s, when the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights was signed, marking a significant milestone in the development of the Second-generation human rights.

In backward countries like the US, Palau and Botswana some of these rights have not yet been implemented. Nonetheless, their nationals still get some things. For example, they have the right to be protected by the labor, products and services provided by the police and the military, which they pay through taxes.

If this bill passes, the US will join the rest of the developed (and a significant part of the non-developed) world. Better late than never...
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Your rights stop where where others' begin. You have no right to force a doctor to provide you with his service free of charge. You have no right to demand medication free of cost from pharmaceutical companies. What's next? You're going to demand free food and housing because those are necessities of life too?

Healthcare is a service, not a right. Don't ever confuse the two. Whenever there is products or service involved, somebody has to foot the bill.
 
Orgasmo said:
Your rights stop where where others' begin. You have no right to force a doctor to provide you with his service free of charge. You have no right to demand medication free of cost from pharmaceutical companies. What's next? You're going to demand free food and housing because those are necessities of life too?

Healthcare is a service, not a right. Don't ever confuse the two. Whenever there is products or service involved, somebody has to foot the bill.
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You are arguing over the losing side of a debate that was settled almost 50 years ago, when 40+ countries (and over 120 more that have joined them since then) got together and agreed that yes, healthcare is a human right (art. 9 and 12 of the ICESCR) and yes, you do also have the right to adequate food and housing (Art. 11 of the ICESCR).

Second-generation human rights do not work in the same way as First-generation human rights, in the sense that you can't force individuals (trough the government) to prevent them from infringing on your rights, but you can force the government (a public entity) to grant you such rights, by using people and public funding as means. Second-generation human rights are not enforceable against individuals, but against the government. To use one of your examples, you have the right to demand from the government doctors or medication at an adequate cost, that in turn, the government will get from pharmaceutical companies or the medical community with public funds (the details are left to each country to establish).
 
Alejo said:
You are arguing over the losing side of a debate that was settled almost 50 years ago, when 40+ countries (and over 120 more that have joined them since then) got together and agreed that yes, healthcare is a human right (art. 9 and 12) and yes, you do also have the right to adequate food and housing (Art. 11).

Second-generation human rights do not work in the same way as First-generation human rights, in the sense that you can't force individuals (trough the government) to prevent them from infringing on your rights, but you can force the government (a public entity) to grant you such rights, by using people and public funding as means. Second-generation human rights are not enforceable against individuals, but against the government. To use one of your examples, you have the right to demand from the government doctors or medication at an adequate cost, that in turn, the government will get from pharmaceutical companies or the medical community with public funds (the details are left to each country to establish).
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Walk into a restaurant and demand they give you free food if you think you have right to food. Go to a developer's office and tell them to build you a free house. Enter a pharmacy and take the drugs off the shelves without paying. Let's see how that goes, because all of those are part of your new "rights" according to your little covenant. I think you'll quickly find out how fast your "rights" crumble in the face of reality and the laws of economics.

You are not entitled to the labours of others. For the record, I am not against a universal healthcare system. I am against the idea that you think you're entitled to it as a part of your imaginary "rights".
 
Orgasmo said:
Walk into a restaurant and demand they give you free food if you think you have right to food. Go to a developer's office and tell them to build you a free house. Enter a pharmacy and take the drugs off the shelves without paying.
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I've already established that Second-generation human rights are not enforceable against individuals.

Orgasmo said:
Let's see how that goes, because all of those are part of your new "rights" according to your little covenant.
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They are not new, they are old as fuck. In fact, we have already passed the Third-generation of rights, which includes consumer protections and environmental rights. Some authors even talk about the Forth-generation of rights in the digital age.

Orgasmo said:
You are not entitled to the labours of others. For the record, I am not against a universal healthcare system. I am against the idea that you think you're entitled to it as a part of your imaginary "rights".
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If you want to argue that Second-generation human rights require money to be implemented, so its practical application is dependent upon the economic situation of each country, you would be 100% correct, as the majority of the legal doctrine agrees with you. Nonetheless, they are still human rights and tons of countries have implemented them on a universal scale.
 
Alejo said:
I've already established that Second-generation human rights are not enforceable against individuals.


They are not new, they are old as fuck. In fact, we have already passed the Third-generation of rights, which includes consumer protections and environmental rights. Some authors even talk about the Forth-generation of rights in the digital age.


If you want to argue that Second-generation human rights require money to be implemented, so its practical application is dependent upon the economic situation of each country, you would be 100% correct, as the majority of the legal doctrine agrees with you. Nonetheless, they are still human rights and tons of countries have implemented them on a universal scale.
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I think you confuse second generation rights as some how enforceable by a set of laws. You usage of rights is colloquial. Canada has no guarantee of health care as a right protected by laws outside of it will not get in your way of seeking it out.
 
Catastrophic coverage for everyone and an annual amount in a retirement account. Any excess in that health account can be rolled over to the next year or sold back to the Government for 70 cents on the dollar.

If you go over your annual limit its out of pocket

You could go anywhere u want since its money that is yours. And physicians give great discounts when not using insurance.
 
Orgasmo said:
Your rights stop where where others' begin. You have no right to force a doctor to provide you with his service free of charge. You have no right to demand medication free of cost from pharmaceutical companies. What's next? You're going to demand free food and housing because those are necessities of life too?

Healthcare is a service, not a right. Don't ever confuse the two. Whenever there is products or service involved, somebody has to foot the bill.
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Why are you under the impression that doctors and pharmaceutical companies won't get paid?
 
Anung Un Rama said:
Why are you under the impression that doctors and pharmaceutical companies won't get paid?
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Don't you remember when Medicare became a thing and all doctors went broke and decided to become lawyers?

It's not like universal coverage countries have higher doctors per capita than the US, despite us being the richest nation in the world and a supremely unhealthy people. Oh shit, they do.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physicians/Per-1,000-people

LOL @ anyone trying to make a pseudo-economic argument against single payer at this point. It's fucking settled.
 
Orgasmo said:
Your rights stop where where others' begin. You have no right to force a doctor to provide you with his service free of charge. You have no right to demand medication free of cost from pharmaceutical companies. What's next? You're going to demand free food and housing because those are necessities of life too?

Healthcare is a service, not a right. Don't ever confuse the two. Whenever there is products or service involved, somebody has to foot the bill.
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LOLLL

You sound like Rand Paul saying that universal healthcare=slavery and all the doctors are enslaved giving people healthcare at less than exorbitant prices.

You should go to Europe and make all those enslaved doctors 'woke'
 
Jim Bob said:
This is a big misconception by the left! No one goes with out health care in the U.S. I'm sure Bernie wants to find a way to pad his pocket again.
bernieGoodKindSoc.jpg
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What's hilarious is that every single one of those is true on a pretty standard level. Especially the huge government, massive taxes, regulations, and cradle to grave involvement. What is also true is that Bernie recognizes these things and his goal is to make sure they actually work. I mean, the people obviously don't have a problem with socialist principles if they've been voting for them for the last 80 or so years.

But keep posting retarded memes dawg. Really helping things
 
Alejo said:
I've already established that Second-generation human rights are not enforceable against individuals.

They are not new, they are old as fuck. In fact, we have already passed the Third-generation of rights, which includes consumer protections and environmental rights. Some authors even talk about the Forth-generation of rights in the digital age.

If you want to argue that Second-generation human rights require money to be implemented, so its practical application is dependent upon the economic situation of each country, you would be 100% correct, as the majority of the legal doctrine agrees with you. Nonetheless, they are still human rights and tons of countries have implemented them on a universal scale.
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You can sign all the covenant and invent all the new "rights" as you wish. At the end of the day, the reality is that products and services are rooted in one's ability to pay for them, not because they must provide it to you because of your "right". Healthcare is an economic activity, just as food and housing are. Being necessities don't mean they're freely accessible. You have the right to acquire medical services, but other citizens do not have a duty to provide it to you.

Sohei said:
LOLLL

You sound like Rand Paul saying that universal healthcare=slavery and all the doctors are enslaved giving people healthcare at less than exorbitant prices.

You should go to Europe and make all those enslaved doctors 'woke'
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Where did I say that universal healthcare = slavery? Don't make up lies.

You do realize that providing healthcare to the population means medical professionals have to be paid right? I hope you are also aware that drugs cost money to research and manufacture. These things don't come out of thin air. So your "right" only exists as long as someone is willing to pay for it. In short, when you have a right to a service, then it would be another man's duty to give it to you. That is where your "right" is fundamentally flawed.

Anung Un Rama said:
Why are you under the impression that doctors and pharmaceutical companies won't get paid?
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Thank you for admitting healthcare is a paid service, and not a forced duty.
 
Anung Un Rama said:
Why are you under the impression that doctors and pharma wouldn't get paid?
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I am not. I am arguing that it's not their duty to give you their services or products for free. Since somebody must pick up the tab, your "healthcare right" means others have obligations to fund you. Well, they don't. I support universal healthcare because of the cost savings and better outcome for the general public, not because it's a "right".
 
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