shadowboxing vs forms

[JeetKunDoGuy]

I would like to start a discussion on the merits of doing forms (or katas) as we see in most "traditional" martial arts, versus the more free flow shadowboxing movements we see in combat sports like boxing and MT.

As far as I know, combat sports don't have what I would consider forms, but they do have drills in stances, footwork, combinations, and shadowboxing. Perhaps practicing combinations and the accompanying footwork and evasion are the closest thing, but they still differ considerably from the formalized sequence of movements that can span over 100 successive postures in one form. And correct me if I am wrong, but shadowboxing is not a key element to most TMAs (I'm thinking Gung Fu and Karate). Perhaps the forms emerged from shadowboxing in ages past, but have been distilled into the sequences we see today, while shadowboxing has been largely forgotten.

Coming from a WC background, I am very familiar with the heavy emphasis put on learning and mastering the forms. I personally hate doing them, which is why I much prefer the art of shadowboxing where I can move freely and use my imagination to string together offence, defence, footwork, etc. However I do not think we should dismiss forms wholesale and throw out the baby with the bathwater. There is obviously some value in them as evidenced by their pervasiveness alone. I would like to make an attempt to formulate some pros and cons of both approaches:

Forms:

Pros- provides a library of techniques so that every move is practiced each time and nothing is forgotten. Protects the art and helps ensure that the moveset is passed onto the next generation. Many times they have "layers" so that many ideas and concepts can be hidden. A relatively easy way for beginners to practice the move set without needing an advanced understanding of the art.

Cons:

Static, rote practice does not (in most cases) translate into free fighting without detailed explanation from a qualified teacher. Takes a lot of time to practice and memorize when you could perhaps learn the same skills better from 2 man drills.

Shadowboxing:

Pros- Free form, flexible, fluid. Any move can be practiced at any time in isolation or combination with any other move. Translates almost directly to actual fighting (more or less depending on the imagination and skill of the individual).

Cons- requires some imagination and/or experience sparring/fighting, so its not a skill picked up easily by beginners. Certain techniques and strategies may be easily neglected.

To me, shadowboxing is an elusive yet powerful skill that everyone should practice. But traditional forms have value too.

What about you guys? Do you prefer one over the other or do both? Anything to add or dispute about my thoughts?

 

[thugpoet]

Actually I enjoy forms. I don't think it should be ether or.

Do both and rep the profits

 

[beaglepuss]

Forms are great if you're looking for a false sense of security. Personally, I like to leave the silly dances numbers to Fred Astaire.

 

[thugpoet]

Forms are great if you're looking for a false sense of security. Personally, I like to leave the silly dances numbers to Fred Astaire.

its only a problem if u think its more then just form exercise.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

A lot of times when people shadow box, they end doing the same pattern over and over again anyways. Plus, I believe they are two separate exercises so why even compare them?

 

[DivineComedy]

Forms are great if you're looking for a false sense of security. Personally, I like to leave the silly dances numbers to Fred Astaire.

Typical ignorant sherdogger comment. That's equivalent to me saying that shadowboxing is a waste of time because you are just hitting air. False sense of security as well when people who shadowbox poorly always assume success in their combinations. <- Now that is a false sense of security.

 

[JeetKunDoGuy]

A lot of times when people shadow box, they end doing the same pattern over and over again anyways. Plus, I believe they are two separate exercises so why even compare them?

Because they seem to be two expressions of the same idea; that is, solo practice. You don't see too many TMAers shadowboxing and vice versa. I'm actually just curious why this is the case and the merits of either approach.

 

[fluffball]

Your understanding of what you're doing matters a whole lot more than what you call what you're doing, in my opinion. Both exercises suffer from lack of understanding, but I think people doing forms without understanding ANY of what they're doing is pretty ubiquitous.

 

[NAKMUAY18]

Never done "forms" but is it not that same as standing infront of a mirror throwing 1-2 hundreds of times until it looks right?
I do that.

 

[Jukai]

The problem with Katas and Forms is that you do one set of movements when doing those things... and then you practice entirely different moves during sparring, on the bag, doing one-two drills.

That's problematic.

 

[Discipulus]

I'm with Jukai. Forms wouldn't be so bad if they actually replicated Karate. Instead they're just a compendium of outlandish techniques.

 

[ChachiKiller]

Questions like this should be prefaced with the following questions before the ignorant types feel like they can reply in confidence.

- What specific/verifiable experience do you have?
-How old were you when you achieved that experience (meaning you can't take kids karate and act like you studied anything or act like your experience is real)?


The question was posed properly by requesting a pros/cons yet all people do is spew garbage. He didn't ask for better or worse answere because that allows morons to speak. He asked for pros/cons. Here are mine:

First, we take this apologetic perspective regarding karate. Whether private practice is as "good" as shadowboxing. I thing that is a false premise. There are so many ways to practice both shadow boxing and karate. Most people I watch (pros and ammys - not hobbyists) do kickboxing shadow boxing at some shortened punch and underestimated fashion. They throw slowish punches, make the swoosh, swoosh sound, their stance is different than how they actually fight. They do the same movement over and over and hardly ever consider defensive movement. It is all some mindnumb offense display. It is not the problem of the exercise known as shadowboxing. The way most people do it, I just can not see much benefit. It is the limitation of the practitioner.

Karate practice has less to do with the practical nature of the techniques specifically in kata. Also to be clear, my style is a hard style (as opposed to soft). We have very little techniques with flowing circular movement. Most things are short, fast and emphasize power. That is where my karate knowledge exists and the reaso I use it for conditioning my body for power, speed and endurance.

I like to do shadow boxing to warm up and get loose only. I could do shadow boxing for conditioning for way longer than I could do karate practice. For my private practice I start the katas that I know well (over 20). I start slow with the lower rank ones but after three or four I am going full power, full speed and full focus. It closely resembled the physical demands of a fast paced fight and it takes me about 25 minutes. I don't stop as I go from one to the other. I have not been able to find that experience in shadowboxing. I am not under any false beliefs that kata makes me bad ass (to the guy who said that - you have little understanding of how that comment makes you sound - your issue for saying it).

Then I stretch for more demanding kicking and allow my body to recover. Then I do blackbelt promotion basics that include sweeps, jump kicks, sparring drills, movement and counters,... That takes another 20 minutes and is full speed and full power.

So, I have done 45 minutes of conditioning that includes absolute all-out training of my body to throw and handle the demands of 100% speed and power. As a result, I trained my conditioning to not fail as fast because I trained at such a high threshold for the length of a fight. I used spinning kicks, jumping kicks, tactical moves, simulated full speed sparring drills, movement and that makes be better athletically than what shadowboxing give me (I am not talking about athletic conditioning, this is specifically high level of conditioning by using fighting techniques).

Karate kata techniques are not things I would do in a kickboxing match but the DEMANDS of training HARD is my advantage. I am very fast for 46 years old and 6'4". I keep my speed from training speed. Karate basics are moves I would include in kickboxing and I am doing them from a deep stance. Deep stances develop power, are hard to move in so when you ar in a fighting stance you are way faster. Finally power comes much from technique and timing. I do hundreds of techniques in every self-practice. I save bag work for kickboxing so I still hit things. I don't do speed bag work because the way I fight, it does not work. I do reaction bag work though.

- How many people do shadowboxing full speed and full power (who is developing 0 to 100 with no telegraphing regularly)?

A final question is whether you could do shadow boxing with the same benefits that I get from karate. I supect you can and I suspect some people are (just not most here).

Seriously, there is such a shit mentality here and it is always from people who do not have any idea of what they are talking about. In the old days, those people would sit off to the side and listen to what other people had to say. Now, they watch a Youtube video and they are an expert.

I will probably get knocked for my tone. I could care less about any attitude I delivered this with because my post is rooted in experience and not some complete dismissal of a training approach rooted in being a dope.

 

[SAAMAG]

The only people qualified to answer this question are those that studied a TMA that contained forms (and got to at least a black belt); as well as practiced an art that utilized shadowboxing as a training component.

 

[SummerStriker]

When I did kata, I did become better at the techniques in them. That's was the main benefit I got - really motivated technique practice.

Shadow boxing is helpful to my sparring directly. I can't do anything in sparring unless I can flow into it shadow boxing. For example, I noticed I never side kicked inside combos during sparring, even though I could when practicing combos containing sidekicks. So I did a round of shadow boxing focusing sidekicks and it was bad. I was tripping over myself.

When I could smoothly sidekick in shadow boxing, I could do it in sparring much better.

The con to shadow boxing is that very few people are willing to instruct it. No one knows what they are looking at and they always tell you not to copy other people's. that leads to the sad state of shadow boxing in the world: sorry noobs self reinforcing made up ideas.

At least with kata, if you take it seriously and get that it isn't suppose to look or feel like fighting, it can't hurt you. The only drawback is if you get some nut job who teaches people to try and do kata in sparring.

 

[ChachiKiller]

The problem with Katas and Forms is that you do one set of movements when doing those things... and then you practice entirely different moves during sparring, on the bag, doing one-two drills.

That's problematic.

They are not meant to be used. When is the last time you hit someone with a stepping punch? However, when was the last time in kickboxing that your countering timing and distance was influenced by your karate training.

When was the last time you grabbed someone by the their clothes, spun and threw them as you jumped versus when was the last time you moved in a way that was free of thought that it surprised you. That is because a martial art allows the expression of movement. If you have done so many different movements then your capacity for freedom of movement and expression is higher.

These stuck in the mud 1-2-6 guys who think in terms of technique will not get it because they are stuck in straight missionary position. Can you get good fighting like that? Sure. In MMA I would liken it to Thiago Silva. I would look at one who practices many different ways and has experience using his body like A. Silva or JBJ. Somewhere along the line, they moved in different ways, develop confidence in moving in different ways and can be dynamic. They do not do forms work but they have a way to move that does not make them limited. That to me is what forms do. Bending, twisting, elbow up, jump, kick and fall...... they give me athleticism that I did movements with my body and I am pliable. Karate forms is NOT the only way to get that but it is a way until someone else figures some other way.

We write differently than we speak and that is exactly the same relationship between forms and fighting. One is the system of movement, approach and inventory of grammar and the other is the means of communicating which is stripped of some rules and allows for inflection, tone and expression. They are taught that way for a reason and the reason is beneficial to the style. All you need to do is translate it.

It is unique athletic training that trains intensity and focus. Go with it rather than reject it.

 

[Frode Falch]

Forms have no advantage over shadowboxing other then that they may look cooler then the normal shadowboxing.

does this mean that forms are useless? no.. but they are not better then shadowboxing.

 

[Azam]

Forms have no advantage over shadowboxing other then that they may look cooler then the normal shadowboxing.

does this mean that forms are useless? no.. but they are not better then shadowboxing.

I'd argue that some forms or kata have just as much benefit as shadowboxing - kata forms like Sanchin or Tensho I feel offer more distinct advantages than normal shadow boxing - I think the advantages become quite clearly defined when you're fighting - especially with the two I've mentioned -- but that said most other kata I feel are not as important as shadow boxing.


For people who fight in bare knuckle arts - will instantly understand why Tensho & Sanchin in particular are in many cases more beneficial than shadow boxing - especially when it comes to coordinating breath (ibuki) hugely important in bare knuckle fighting, conditioning your body internally - something all karateka will understand.


But I think what needs to be said is that shadow boxing & forms - represent completely different things - forms for the most part are used to teach correct technique, posture, stance etc etc - whereas the goal of shadowboxing is to correct perceived flaws and maintain a degree of rhythm - the goal of shadow boxing & goal of forms are completely different.

 

[thugpoet]

The problem with Katas and Forms is that you do one set of movements when doing those things... and then you practice entirely different moves during sparring, on the bag, doing one-two drills.

That's problematic.

I do agree with this

 

[thugpoet]

I do agree with this

tbh I dont think many here understand Kara or shadowboxing to make a clear answer.

Shadowboxing is just that you are literally supposed to fight your imagination " what do I do if hr moves this way?" what if he throws this counter?" keep my left hand up etc etc it teaches you to think your actions threw. ( when done properly)

Katas are there to build form - unison in action and breath. Not to say that shadowboxing doesn't teach these things just that it isn't a main focus.

Imo both are needed and both are one in the same. Separated only by people and their need to be different

 

[SAAMAG]

Did you guys know that Kyokushin guys do BOTH? ZOMG!

I think a few folks here have defined well enough the differences between forms and sb.

But IMO no one NEEDS forms. You can refine movements in microsets or on an individual basis. Shadowboxing however is very important in fighting development from the respect that it replicates the same rythm and movement that you'd have in fighting.

E.g. I practiced all sorts of forms in TKD and Karate. Later I practiced an even larger load of gung fu forms...and if any of you know about TCMA...there's a shit load of forms!

Today...I don't practice or really remember hardly any of them. Bits an pieces remain. I've already internalized the essence and application of each system and so I don't need the forms to know how to fight with a particular styles tech an strategy.

The real question is--can you learn gung fu or karate or TKD without the forms? That's a harder question and the answer varies based on how one perceives the essence of said style.