shadowboxing vs forms

[SanShou01]

Who'd you train sanshou under again?

Under Cung Le fool, what now?

The unique thing about sanshou is the strike counters into throws.
Most of these come directly from forms, as they are not found as such in other styles. Sanshou had these techniques from the get-go, and the sport doesn't pre-date the 1930s. That means either your coach, your coach's coach, or that coach's coach did all the heavy lifting for you, so you have the luxury of coming on here and being a noob. When you find out who it is that put in the grunt work to translate those techniques to gloves & a lei tai, you should kiss their feet and then go learn some new techniques from a flowery mumbo jumbo form so you can up your game.

Well no shit Sanshou came from Kung-Fu, it had to come from somewhere. And it basically did what I'm arguing, which is trash all of that drawing pretty flowers in the air, wasting time.....and just get to the actually fighting techniques that works well in a real fight.

 

[SAAMAG]

I'm calling bullshit. If you trained under Cung Le you wouldn't be trash talking the traditional aspects of gung fu. I've met Cung and he's not like that at all. Maybe I'll call him to see why one of his "students" is on the internet trolling and throwing around his name.

What's your name again?

 

[SanShou01]

A form is seen as useless because its removed too far from what it is. See the forms are a record of the karate moves of the original art. So things like the low block are a throw, so when you do it as a block, it looses value. The movements are for self defense, so when you try to make the movements fit sport it runs into problems.

If your forms involves you placing your fists at your waste as a fighting stance and throwing punches from there and then retract it right back to the waste, then you're going to get knocked the fuck out....whether in the street or in the cage. Bad is just bad.

And if this low block to throw for self defense whatever works well, you can be sure it would be used for sport in the UFC as millions of dollars in prize money and endorsements can be riding on just one fight. Some untrained slob attacking you in the street is nothing compared to a trained fighter in the cage trying to KOYTFO. He really is coming at you with everything he's got, trying to kill you...and much better at it than any untrained toughguy in the streets.

 

[SanShou01]

heres a little food for thought ,

on another thread a member asked how others train beginners to box ,

a few other members chimed in and said the most important part is their stance and teaching them to move around and throw techiniques from that stance ,

guess what the primary focus of forms / patterns are .

The MAIN DIFFERENCE is, what's taught to a brand new Boxing Noob will be used in a real fight whether he steps into the ring a year from now in his first amateur fight or 10 years later in his pro title fight for $20 million, etc...or if he steps outside into the streets 2 hours later and gets jumped.

But forms like these here, are a waste of time as nobody in their right mind would fight like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9Ohfx3_L3c

 

[SanShou01]

I'm calling bullshit. If you trained under Cung Le you wouldn't be trash talking the traditional aspects of gung fu. I've met Cung and he's not like that at all. Maybe I'll call him to see why one of his "students" is on the internet trolling and throwing around his name.

What's your name again?

haha, i'm kidding. i don't even train Sanshou, it's a joke.

 

[JeetKunDoGuy]

Wow, great responses from the more thoughtful members. I understand everyone who says they are apples and oranges. Perhaps I was setting up a false dichotomy, but nonetheless it has created some interesting conversation. The reason I originally posed the question is because I saw forms and shadowboxing as counterparts of respective systems. I realize this may be a result of my limited understanding of the bigger picture of all martial arts. I am still learning and am by no means an expert. And if you read my OP, I wasn't trying to say we should abandon either for the sake of the other.

For those who say that there are "forms" in boxing/MT etc., I see what you are saying but I disagree that these practices are equivalent to katas or forms. Forms have a beginning, middle, and end. They have very specific sequences of moves, stances, and footwork that are passed down from generations past. Drilling movement from stances is different than this. However this puts into light the reason I posed the question to begin with - forms and shadowboxing (at least on the surface) SEEM to be alternate expressions of a similar intent. But perhaps a better contrast would be "drills in stances" vs forms...but maybe I'm just grasping at straws.

They are not meant to be used. When is the last time you hit someone with a stepping punch? However, when was the last time in kickboxing that your countering timing and distance was influenced by your karate training.

When was the last time you grabbed someone by the their clothes, spun and threw them as you jumped versus when was the last time you moved in a way that was free of thought that it surprised you. That is because a martial art allows the expression of movement. If you have done so many different movements then your capacity for freedom of movement and expression is higher.

These stuck in the mud 1-2-6 guys who think in terms of technique will not get it because they are stuck in straight missionary position. Can you get good fighting like that? Sure. In MMA I would liken it to Thiago Silva. I would look at one who practices many different ways and has experience using his body like A. Silva or JBJ. Somewhere along the line, they moved in different ways, develop confidence in moving in different ways and can be dynamic. They do not do forms work but they have a way to move that does not make them limited. That to me is what forms do. Bending, twisting, elbow up, jump, kick and fall...... they give me athleticism that I did movements with my body and I am pliable. Karate forms is NOT the only way to get that but it is a way until someone else figures some other way.

We write differently than we speak and that is exactly the same relationship between forms and fighting. One is the system of movement, approach and inventory of grammar and the other is the means of communicating which is stripped of some rules and allows for inflection, tone and expression. They are taught that way for a reason and the reason is beneficial to the style. All you need to do is translate it.

It is unique athletic training that trains intensity and focus. Go with it rather than reject it.

Excellent post. I like the analogy between writing and speaking. I think that pretty much describes the intent and purpose of forms.

I'd argue that some forms or kata have just as much benefit as shadowboxing - kata forms like Sanchin or Tensho I feel offer more distinct advantages than normal shadow boxing - I think the advantages become quite clearly defined when you're fighting - especially with the two I've mentioned -- but that said most other kata I feel are not as important as shadow boxing.


For people who fight in bare knuckle arts - will instantly understand why Tensho & Sanchin in particular are in many cases more beneficial than shadow boxing - especially when it comes to coordinating breath (ibuki) hugely important in bare knuckle fighting, conditioning your body internally - something all karateka will understand.


But I think what needs to be said is that shadow boxing & forms - represent completely different things - forms for the most part are used to teach correct technique, posture, stance etc etc - whereas the goal of shadowboxing is to correct perceived flaws and maintain a degree of rhythm - the goal of shadow boxing & goal of forms are completely different.

Hmm...I'm not sure about you, but when I shadowbox I am very cognizant of coordinating breath and developing internal power albeit in a different manner than the traditional methods you speak of. However I am coming from a TMA background though so these types of things are forefront in my mind, where someone who is not as aware of these concepts may simply be moving around and throwing punches.

Did you guys know that Kyokushin guys do BOTH? ZOMG!

I think a few folks here have defined well enough the differences between forms and sb.

But IMO no one NEEDS forms. You can refine movements in microsets or on an individual basis. Shadowboxing however is very important in fighting development from the respect that it replicates the same rythm and movement that you'd have in fighting.

E.g. I practiced all sorts of forms in TKD and Karate. Later I practiced an even larger load of gung fu forms...and if any of you know about TCMA...there's a shit load of forms!

Today...I don't practice or really remember hardly any of them. Bits an pieces remain. I've already internalized the essence and application of each system and so I don't need the forms to know how to fight with a particular styles tech an strategy.

The real question is--can you learn gung fu or karate or TKD without the forms? That's a harder question and the answer varies based on how one perceives the essence of said style.

Excellent question. I think its definitely worth pointing out that you don't remember many of the forms you practiced so hard to learn. Kinda reminds me of something I read that Ueshiba said - learn and forget, learn and forget. Make the form and movement part of your body and then move on. Martial arts are constantly evolving so why should we be harnessed to archaic movements? My JKD instructors learned many different forms in their TMA experience, but they no longer practice them for much the same reason as you.

heres a little food for thought ,

on another thread a member asked how others train beginners to box ,

a few other members chimed in and said the most important part is their stance and teaching them to move around and throw techiniques from that stance ,

guess what the primary focus of forms / patterns are .

although i am not a form enthusiast , it does have its place in martial arts .

to compare forms vs shadowboxing is what im not understanding , they are not the same. you can do forms and still shadowbox or work on your techiniques without having to do it as a preset form .

the main purpose for forms is to teach technique and used as a benchmark to test against for belt advancement in todays martial arts .

i shadow box a lot , but it doesnt look anything like a form / pattern

In Changchuan styled forms...one of the things I never liked was that all the stances were extremely low, and all the kicks were very high; yet in application drills, the stances were not low and the kicks were not always high.

Asking one of the Sifu's about it, I was told that forms were done that way to "condition the body, build the lungs, promote flexibility and fluidity" or something like that. It was his opinion that the form sets actual applications were indeed hidden to many. He attributed this to teachers not fully teaching their system to everyone but a select few...keeping certain things secret for their own benefit. He said when those open-door students then went out to teach--they taught with an unknowingly incomplete knowledge of the said system. One the closed-door students only knew. Because of this, he said that each time a form is taught, it's like making a copy of a copy--and that some of the "print-quality" goes with each one. Knowledge of the original intent of the form gets lost even more as it's passed now.

Interesting point that seems to hold true with chinese systems, since historically it was prevalent for some teachers to hold out and only teach the inner workings to a select few who showed the right qualities. I don't know if Japanese taught this way however...but it's an interesting side-bar to this conversation which adds some fodder to the "value" equation of forms today.

I think this is why it's so important to find the essence of the art for yourself. I personally hate the "closed door" mentality because it stifles the art. However, the deep truths are not taught, they are discovered...that's to say, even if I teach someone a very profound concept, their ability to internalize that truth is very much dependent on their "martial arts IQ" so to speak. Some people are gifted in math, and the answers come easy to them - they even develop their own shortcuts and blaze a path for others to follow - however this is not something that can be taught, it is something they are born with. I think the same holds true for anything, and especially martial arts, where the results speak for themselves.

 

[BudoNoah]

Yep, pulling your fist to your waist while punching totally doesn't work

On a serious note, I'm a traditional karateka, and I shadowbox all the time, but I do it two different ways--I do free-form self defense shadowboxing, and I do sparring shadowboxing. For self defense shadowboxing, your imaginary opponent always attacks you, rather than waiting for you to attack him, the attack is probably sloppy (probably an untrained attacker), there will probably be grabbing involved, and he likely doesn't have trained reflexes (blocking, covering up, reading feints, circling away, etc.). The techniques you do in that kind of shadowboxing will be widely varied based on how you train to respond to those scenarios. For me, the techniques I use come from my forms, because forms are, essentially, a bunch of self defense scenario drills all strung together. Shadowboxing for sparring assumes you are fighting a similarly trained person, who is expecting you to fight back, who has trained responses, and you will be doing it under a ruleset that helps dictate the types of techniques you will be using.

Are forms the most effective way to prepare for MMA? No, not really, although there is stuff in them that can work in MMA just fine. Will shadowboxing help your ability to defend yourself in "teh streets"? Yes, since being able to flow with the combinations you are comfortable with is going to cross-over. No one says you have to do one or the other, and I don't think that either one is better than the other--they are just different approaches. Find what works for you and do it.

 

[SummerStriker]

I think this is why it's so important to find the essence of the art for yourself. I personally hate the "closed door" mentality because it stifles the art. However, the deep truths are not taught, they are discovered...that's to say, even if I teach someone a very profound concept, their ability to internalize that truth is very much dependent on their "martial arts IQ" so to speak. Some people are gifted in math, and the answers come easy to them - they even develop their own shortcuts and blaze a path for others to follow - however this is not something that can be taught, it is something they are born with. I think the same holds true for anything, and especially martial arts, where the results speak for themselves.

My post is only tangentially related, so if you don't feel like reading it, you don't have to.

I get what you are saying, and I think that it is ok as internal dialog for a martial arts instructor so that his ego is protected when his students don't do well. Math, like martial arts, can be taught. I don't believe a whole lot in natural aptitude as a determining factor as I do training and starting point.

If you were in the 2nd grade, and all of your reading assignments were at a 6th grade level, how good do you think you would get at reading? Probably not very. The problem with martial arts is that everyone is at a different level when the come in and martial arts instructors have a limited ability to teach to each person's level.

The same is true for math. When I got into the end of calculus in college, I hit the only class I ever couldn't beat on the first try. For some reason I had not gotten some of the background math in a previous class and the shit you do with special coordinate systems is difficult. I killed infinite sequences, but the polar and vector killed me. I had to drop and retake it. When I got to calculus based physics though, it was a cake walk. I could derive the formulas myself, because my math teacher gave me a great base. If things are over your head, it looks like you "don't have natural talent," when really you missed a basic skill and people are talking over your head because your training skipped a step.

The natural aptitude in martial arts is derived from a few different things.

Athletic Ability
Ability to Pay Attention
Time Spent Imagining Oneself Fighting
Visual Learning Ability

If a student isn't actually interested enough to pay attention, and doesn't empty their mind of T.V. and social events and video games while you are talking, they aren't going to learn it.

If they have the desire, your instruction needs to be on their level. Martial arts classes are usually about parroting and often the people who parrot best only do so because they were already in shape when they got there, visual learners who have already conditioned themselves for the activity by spending time imagining themselves do it - often by watching other people fight.

So a new person who doesn't have the "natural aptitude" but wants to do it can be taken to a high level by building up not just their body, but their mind, by having them watch fights actively, imagining themselves in the role of the fighter, giving them information on self defense to put things in context, and demonstrating technique with you (the instructor's) ass on the line in front of class - all these things to bring them up to the level you expect them to be at so that you can talk to them at the level you normally teach to.

Once they build up their athletic qualities and spend some time learning about the context of fighting by watching people practice, watching people fight, watching experts compete with one another and visualizing themselves in that role, they will be able to learn martial arts.

If you take someone who has a desire to learn but are not developed enough for the basics, and you start spouting off platitudes about being like water and expanding when your opponent contracts, and how to go for eyes while the other persons hands are busy and all that horse shit, you are going to be talking over their heads and wasting their time.

I personally find it offensive when the "deep truths" or "black belt material" are held back like secrets when I am personally capable of learning them, because I know that the reason they are holding it back is because most instructors could write all of their A-list material on two sides of a 8x11 sheet of notebook paper and spend all their time looking for ways to drag it out. They are quick to spout it out if they think no one around is capable of learning it, and probably the fastest way to get it from them is to play stupid and trip over your own feet so that they feel comfortable showing off. Those same guys, inclined to "secret moves" are quick to get really fucking conservative when they think someone good enough to parse through it is around.

 

[SanShou01]

Yep, pulling your fist to your waist while punching totally doesn't work

So this is how your school would train Noobs to fight, by picking out rare cases in a video where someone gets caught by a super windup punch oozing with bad techniques? There are Capoeira fighters doing wild wheel kicks KO'ing someone on YouTube also, but do you see people flocking to Capoeira to train as their main standup style for MMA do you?

And none of those clips you spent all that time searching for and editing them had any of the fighters dropping their hand completely to their hips to throw the punch....like how this Karateka is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OI-FTV3-4o

Not even Machida in that last clip.

No shit that almost anything can work and someone can get caught, especially after both fighters are gassed, etc. Good Boxers also starts throwing punches with bad techniques and such in later rounds, when gassed & desperate too. Doesn't mean that this is how they'd train though. Bad technique is just BAD.

 

[panamaican]

I like forms. They're not shadow boxing. They don't accomplish the same thing, they don't serve the same purpose.

I'll say this just to keep it short. I've never seen or trained a martial art where they used body mechanics that I hadn't already trained hundreds of times in some karate kata at some point.

Final hand/feet positions, purpose of the movement changed from art to art but the gross body mechanics? Drilled to death just through kata. That to me is one of things that I certainly appreciate from my time spent drilling katas.

I'll never forget the first time I sparred. It wasn't in my karate class with other karatekas, I'd found some guys who trained different things and sparred regularly. Despite the fact that it was my first time, I did pretty well. I accomplished things in sparring that I'd never drilled in karate (I was fairly new to karate at the time) purely because the mechanics were so ingrained in my body.

 

[SanShou01]

Shadowboxing for sparring assumes you are fighting a similarly trained person, who is expecting you to fight back, who has trained responses, and you will be doing it under a ruleset that helps dictate the types of techniques you will be using.

There's no difference in the streets nor the cage. Someone step up, just start punching them in the face, going for the chin... and go from there. The way I shadowbox, is the way I spar and fight. I'm not going to do something completely different just because I'm in a streetfight. It's just going to be easier (usually) and now, I have no rules to worry about getting DQ'ed over.

It takes more physical & mental skills to fight under different sets of rules. MMA fighters understands this the best as we usually train under multiple types of ruleset every time (ie. BJJ only, MT only, Boxing only then MMA combines it all). That's why it's real silly when some Self Defense person (not saying you) thinks that an experienced MMA fighter wouldn't know how to kick someone in the nuts nor keep stomping on someone's head while they're down, until their head caves in and they die (if he he wanted to kill the guy) in the streets. Yeah, there's no referee in the streets, so who do you think is going to benefit from this more, the guy who trains to knockout people every week at the gym or some untrained punk on the street that maybe fights once every few months, but more likely not even once a year?

 

[panamaican]

I guess I believe it just conditions your body to fighting movements. They don't make you a great fighter and most of the movements can't be used in a fight in the same form that you train them.

But part of being a good fighter is not having to think about what you're body is doing. That takes endless repetitions until those movements are second nature. I think forms provide a great tool for drilling the broad movements that your body relies on when fighting. The weight transfers, foot movement, arm movements, etc.

They won't make you good at any specific martial art, you need to train that specific art to get good at it, but it will make your body a better tool for all martial arts. Now for the caveat - it's no substitute for sparring, drilling art specific techniques, etc. It can be a substitute for conditioning but that's kind of pointless. It can't substitute for strength training unless you're super weak to begin with.

 

[peanut66]

So this is how your school would train Noobs to fight, by picking out rare cases in a video where someone gets caught by a super windup punch oozing with bad techniques? There are Capoeira fighters doing wild wheel kicks KO'ing someone on YouTube also, but do you see people flocking to Capoeira to train as their main standup style for MMA do you?

And none of those clips you spent all that time searching for and editing them had any of the fighters dropping their hand completely to their hips to throw the punch....like how this Karateka is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OI-FTV3-4o

Not even Machida in that last clip.

No shit that almost anything can work and someone can get caught, especially after both fighters are gassed, etc. Good Boxers also starts throwing punches with bad techniques and such in later rounds, when gassed & desperate too. Doesn't mean that this is how they'd train though. Bad technique is just BAD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

super wind up punches , oozing with bad technique

this has nothing to do with the thread , i just love watching roy jones jr.

 

[SAAMAG]

I fucking love RJJ

 

[JeetKunDoGuy]

I fucking love RJJ

Ditto

 

[ericPorkChop]

Under Cung Le fool, what now?

He's a good fighter & a pretty good coach.
I've cornered across from the guy.
Jose and Rudi are good guys.
I think Cung's one of the only Big 7 San Shou Coaches with almost no traditional cma background. While he may have won a national title before Shawn Liu, I'm of the opinion that he was incredibly raw skill-wise before Liu, especially when it comes from off-balances from the clinch.
Still, I doubt he's telling you to go around bashing any traditional style with forms.
Shuai Chiao even has forms and there's not really any such thing as San Shou without Shuai Chiao.

 

[Steveston]

I prefer Shadowboxing it is just up to you what you enjoy more, there is no ''Correct'' or ''better'' form to do doesn't hurt to do both!

 

[SanShou01]

Still, I doubt he's telling you to go around bashing any traditional style with forms.
Shuai Chiao even has forms and there's not really any such thing as San Shou without Shuai Chiao.

I was just playing around, I don't even train Sanshou. I certainly do contend that most TMA forms are outdated and in general, a waste of time. That's why Karatekas developed Kickboxing, to skip most of the useless stuff. Same goes for Kung-Fu'ers with Sanda. If someone wants to train MA in order to fight and defend themselves as quickly and efficiently as possible, then it's best to skip all of the traditional forms and get right to the fighting techniques.

 

[Paradigm]

you could argue that the wai kru is a "form" (or kata, of sorts) for Muay Thai:

 

[Phaiym]

^
could be...but each wai kru ram muay is so different from camp to camp...it's more showing off your skills indirectly and what camp you came out of, etc...the wai kru itself is merely a ritual to pay respects and pray for good luck and such

some fighters have beautiful wai krus...Kronphet has the prettiest wai kru i've ever seen...shit is like a dance

Lerdsila and others have more typical, traditional stuff