Sport BJJ blackbelt vs strong untrained dude who can punch, in a fight with strikes. Who takes it?

[method115]

I reckon if the bigger untrained guy does not land a lucky punch, he has little chance. He will likely get winded within a minute from trying to escape under a bjj black belt (not even considering the vast difference in grappling knowledge). You cannot take for granted the conditioning you get from bjj. Before I started training I used to get exhausted from 20 seconds of intense exertion like in a fight.

First BJJ class went 3 mins before I had to give up for the rest of the class (10-15 mins total sparring). People seriously underestimate how quickly someone will get tired from grappling in a situation like that when they have no experience.

 

[Kinosis]

Googled that but didn't find anything. Link please?

I think he has had a few of those fights on random EBI events but I am not sure. If you look up Eddie Bravo Combat Jiu-Jitsu on youtube I think the first event is on there. I watched it months ago.

 

[DatCutman]

1. It shows even training for slaps in an upcoming event, they have done so little real fighting that they can't deal with it.

2. If they can't deal with a guy slapping them, on the ground where they are supposed to be experts, they sure can't deal with someone who can throw strong, hard punches on the feet. They are going to cave and fold quickly.

Are we just ignoring the fact that the slappers are also high level trained grapplers, and not totally untrained oafs?

 

[asian-glow]

I go to a sport BJJ school and we also do basic BJJ and takedowns. Sometimes when I ear people say that sport BJJ is only guard pulling and worm guards it makes me mad. We all have the same basics, we all do takedowns, we all do gi and no gi. There's just some schools that don't waste time with the self defense that Rickson wants us to do..

I've been to many schools where TD's and nogi were practiced so sparsely they were almost a waste of time. Almost all schools also don't practice defending against punches or if they do, it's once again so infrequent or unrealistic that it's also a waste of time.

In my experience, a vast majority of bjj guys have a negligent amount of experience on their feet, even in a grappling context. Couple this with a sport culture that encourages pulling guard and you are giving the puncher the best chance possible both on the feet and on the ground.

I have two instructors, both of whom were black belts under separate equally legit, traditional lineages (if lineage means anything to you. This story will tell you it means little).

1. My first instructor tried to steal something from a super market. He was confronted by loss prevention. I heard my instructor went for a heel hook and got his ass beat by loss prevention guy. Let us assume that loss prevention guy has no experience or at least isn't a black belt. My instructor is a small dude - about 135lbs when I saw him last. He was supposedly a judo brown belt but I never saw him stand up once.

2. My former instructor was apparently "challenged" by a coworker to "hold him down" after discovering he was a black belt. Let's assume the challenger has some wrestling/grappling experience but is also not a black belt. This black belt isn't very good, his stand up is atrocious, and his cardio is garbage. My instructor could not take him down, apparently pulled guard, and went for an armbar. At some point they agree to stop the match but I forget why. My instructor's head looked like it had a leopard pattern - big bruises everywhere - and his elbows were skinned pretty good.

One interesting fact about both instances is that both instructors were self defense instructors. Neither person was prepared for how someone acts outside of a simulated, grappling context.

 

[Kinosis]

Are we just ignoring the fact that the slappers are also high level trained grapplers, and not totally untrained oafs?

Are we ignoring the fact that "highly trained grapplers" can't even deal with a guy slapping them? Or that they aren't experts on their feet? Or that most of them don't even practice takedowns anymore and start from the knees or drop to their butts when a match starts?

If you can't at least admit there is a glaring issue there, there is no where to go with this conversation.

 

[Uchi Mata]

The BJJ BB would win 99/100 times. I think people tend to underrate how easy it is to deal with untrained people if you have 10+ years of training even if you haven't done any striking.

 

[plataoplombo]

It will come down to aggressiveness. If the untrained guy is super aggressive and the BB isn't ready or used to it then yeah he can get his ass beat. Otherwise the BB should be able to easily take the dude down. There too much of a skill gap between an untrained dude and a BB, especially a BB that competes regularly.

 

[empsim]

you guys are waaaaaaay underestimating the combat abilities of a legit bjj black belt....

probably because every celebrity nowadays starts at purple

random dude would have 1 or 2 shots for a clean KO, after that the fight would be over

 

[Knock Out Ned]

I remember there was a thread like this a long time ago where someone asked the same question.

After like 6 pages some guy was like, “ I train at 50/50. I’m a sport guy and I have terrible takedowns. I got into a fight with an strong, athletic guy, and I took him down and neutralized the situation”.

Or something like that. I think the dude was a purple. Everyone ignored him and kept arguing.

Almost as good as the one where people were arguing whether Joe Rogan does gi. Someone said he sees Joe at Jean Jacque’s training gi and rolls with him. Everyone ignored him and kept debating

 

[yetanother]

The black belt who I know who is the biggest bitch would get beat up badly once someone aggressive lands hit him in estrogen bloated face (from taking steroids while being dump as a retarded rock).
He doesn't compete and trains once in a blue moon because he lives with his mother, sells some drugs on the side drugs.

 

[Human Bass]

It's easier to hug than to land a clean punch, so the grappler most of the time.

 

[TheMaster]

I've been to many schools where TD's and nogi were practiced so sparsely they were almost a waste of time. Almost all schools also don't practice defending against punches or if they do, it's once again so infrequent or unrealistic that it's also a waste of time.

In my experience, a vast majority of bjj guys have a negligent amount of experience on their feet, even in a grappling context. Couple this with a sport culture that encourages pulling guard and you are giving the puncher the best chance possible both on the feet and on the ground.

I have two instructors, both of whom were black belts under separate equally legit, traditional lineages (if lineage means anything to you. This story will tell you it means little).

1. My first instructor tried to steal something from a super market. He was confronted by loss prevention. I heard my instructor went for a heel hook and got his ass beat by loss prevention guy. Let us assume that loss prevention guy has no experience or at least isn't a black belt. My instructor is a small dude - about 135lbs when I saw him last. He was supposedly a judo brown belt but I never saw him stand up once.

2. My former instructor was apparently "challenged" by a coworker to "hold him down" after discovering he was a black belt. Let's assume the challenger has some wrestling/grappling experience but is also not a black belt. This black belt isn't very good, his stand up is atrocious, and his cardio is garbage. My instructor could not take him down, apparently pulled guard, and went for an armbar. At some point they agree to stop the match but I forget why. My instructor's head looked like it had a leopard pattern - big bruises everywhere - and his elbows were skinned pretty good.

One interesting fact about both instances is that both instructors were self defense instructors. Neither person was prepared for how someone acts outside of a simulated, grappling context.

Wtf was your instructor doing trying to shoplift, and how did you hear the story?
So if I am getting you right, your BJJ blackbelt instructor got his ass handed to him by random loss prevention guy while going for a heel hook, after being caught shoplifting? Strange story could you elaborate more.

Second example, random untrained coworker with maybe a bit of highschool wrestling roughs up BJJ blackbelt instructor who couldnt get the takedown and looked beat up after trying to pull guard a going for failed armbar. Sounds about right, any guy who did even a little bit of highschool wrestling in his youth would likely have enough takedown defence to neutralize even an experienced BJJ guy.
The skinned elbows - rolling on the hard floor not so nice as those soft mats. If the guy had wrestling or is just strong and big enough slamming the BJJ blackbelt on the floor would also have been quite possible but probably they just broke it up because it was getting messy.

 

[Eisenhans]

How much is pure sport BJJ translateable to fighting nowadays, especially compared to old school GJJ?

Impossible to say. Good combat sports guys getting beat up by street fighters is a daily occurrence in Europe and that didn't change with BJJ entering the scene - in fact, old school BJJ guys had some real trouble in the Netherlands back in the 90s and early 00s, as far as I have heard. And I doubt it's been getting better nowadays.

 

[lechien]

This is the key issue. Even if you have alot of technical skill on the ground, if you never trained with strikes:
- alot of what you do may not be safe if someone is trying to punch or otherwise strike you
- you might freeze the moment you get hit for real

Also this is assuming the BJJ guy can get the takedown against a strong guy who wants to stay on his feet.

Like an above poster said, there are high level technical ground grapplers who would fold from a few hard slaps let alone punches. The sport BJJ guy is entering a new world the moment someone punches his head or body on the feet or on the ground, and if hes never been hit before then it really depends if he can still hold it together and how much of the skills he has will still he available under this new type of pressure.

Please define training with strikes .

What type of training is it?

What does it consist of?

And how long and often do you do it in order to be ready for the streets?

It is a serious question as my students is a correctional officer and always wants to do slap jiu jitsu.

 

[TheMaster]

Please define training with strikes .

What type of training is it?

What does it consist of?

And how long and often do you do it in order to be ready for the streets?

It is a serious question as my students is a correctional officer and always wants to do slap jiu jitsu.

For grappling training to make it more realistic add controlled strikes in all positions. Obviously this excludes standing at range which is something else, but you can add it to standing clinch positions also.

Basically the easiest way is to add open hand slaps to the face and head. Controlled palm strikes or hard slaps to the body also. If you wanted to train more hard then semi contact controlled closed fists to the body also can be thrown in but controlled palm heels to the body will hurt also.
Controlled upkicks or short 'stomps' on the ground and in scrambles.

Isolating certain positions then training them with the added palms and slaps. If your getting slapped up alot from a certain position chances are it may not be viable if you were getting hit with full power punches.
Adding these elements more often allows you to get a feel for what it would be like to grapple in a fight, without getting beat up each time you train but at the same time adding the necessary pressure.

You can call out weak positions that are open to being struck and go through the motions of landing elbows and knees on the ground also without actually doing them obviously. Then isolate those positions and adapt them to be safer with strikes or abandon them if they are not.
It still wont simulate full strikes but will be alot closer and help you to adjust how you grapple to be more prepared and get used to doing it when taking some kind of strikes is there.

 

[Cappy Goodtime]

This is so stupid to me. I'm a "sport bjj" brown belt, and the notion that in a fight I wouldn't know what techniques to use and what techniques to not use is so demeaning. Occasionally we train with light open handed strikes, and guess what? The better grappler still always wins. The techniques they use might change, but it doesn't take long to process what is a good idea and what is a bad idea.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

People underestimate how debilitating a punch to the face really is to the untrained person. Most of your sensory information is processed in your head. Eyes to nose to tongue, and your brain all found in your head. We are not meant to take blows to the head, that is why people often flinch (startle reflex).

If you're untrained in taking shots to the face you're going to more than likely cover up, blink, close your eyes or look away from the punch. This reflex is meant to protect your face but will lead to you taking incoming shots you can't see or defend. This is what we see in TKO situations, a lack of being able to defend, often times covering and being unresponsive.

Now, seeing as the strong guy isn't trained I give the edge to the bjj guy you described. If he were a dedicated boxer as well I'd give it to the strong man.

However, anything could happen and I am just speculating.

 

[asian-glow]

Wtf was your instructor doing trying to shoplift, and how did you hear the story?
So if I am getting you right, your BJJ blackbelt instructor got his ass handed to him by random loss prevention guy while going for a heel hook, after being caught shoplifting? Strange story could you elaborate more.

Second example, random untrained coworker with maybe a bit of highschool wrestling roughs up BJJ blackbelt instructor who couldnt get the takedown and looked beat up after trying to pull guard a going for failed armbar. Sounds about right, any guy who did even a little bit of highschool wrestling in his youth would likely have enough takedown defence to neutralize even an experienced BJJ guy.
The skinned elbows - rolling on the hard floor not so nice as those soft mats. If the guy had wrestling or is just strong and big enough slamming the BJJ blackbelt on the floor would also have been quite possible but probably they just broke it up because it was getting messy.

The first story was told to me by a very reliable source. My instructor was also a super sketchy dude. He drank a lot, did drugs (cocaine), and was an all around sketchy dude. If you knew the guy, him shoplifting would be less of a surprise. That's all I know.

I'm almost sure the second guy had training. The second instructor was basically challenged under a rule set where pinning was match terminating - sounds like the realm of a wrestler to me. It would be a really weird to request that if you didn't already know how to grapple.

Yea I think the type of flooring has an impact on the development of combat sports. My old school got new mats where the tatami grip was extremely aggressive - everyones knees were bleeding the first week. Everyone modified their technique by the end of the month.

 

[DatCutman]

This is so stupid to me. I'm a "sport bjj" brown belt, and the notion that in a fight I wouldn't know what techniques to use and what techniques to not use is so demeaning. Occasionally we train with light open handed strikes, and guess what? The better grappler still always wins. The techniques they use might change, but it doesn't take long to process what is a good idea and what is a bad idea.

I take this all as karmic retribution for the 90's - late 00's period where BJJ bloodlust ran rampant, during the great BJJihad, wherein practitioners (me included, I was young, what can I say) let everyone know how superior BJJ was to whatever stupid shit they were doing.

Now that BJJ is a part of MMA rather than MMA itself, everyone's crawling out of the woodwork to get revenge. Now a "strong 25 year old" can trash a black belt. Other posts say TKD could take BJJ. Boxers think they can somehow punch us. Wrestling is the new BJJ, enjoying its time back in the sun. Hell, these days even Judoka think they're superior. We have sown the wind with our shit posting, and now we reap the whirlwind of shit posting.

Edit:
Just saw this, ironic timing with this thread, aint it?
https://bjj-world.com/kid-defends-h...PB9E4h6XPiRQXM75Y_OaF70nkVLYyRu2R8d0q_h7vqtOY

 

[Te Huna Matata]

I'd expect this kind of bullshit in the heavies. A competitive BJJ Black Belt will embarass an untrained foe without any difficulty. Didn't UFC 1 prove this?

Fuck, I'll go as far as saying a good white belt would do the same to 95% of the world.