Sport BJJ blackbelt vs strong untrained dude who can punch, in a fight with strikes. Who takes it?

[yetanother]

People go on and on that grappling evolved but it may be 'pure grappling' evolved but it actually became less applicable to fighting than in the earlier days.
How much is pure sport BJJ translateable to fighting nowadays, especially compared to old school GJJ?

Depends on the style of the game you play. A take down (like going for single legs from guard) heavy style would be a lot better than old school GJJ.
The weaknesses are the same.

 

[mrsenor]

I'd expect this kind of bullshit in the heavies. A competitive BJJ Black Belt will embarass an untrained foe without any difficulty. Didn't UFC 1 prove this?

Fuck, I'll go as far as saying a good white belt would do the same to 95% of the world.

 

[rmongler]

This is the key issue. Even if you have alot of technical skill on the ground, if you never trained with strikes:
- alot of what you do may not be safe if someone is trying to punch or otherwise strike you
- you might freeze the moment you get hit for real

Here's the key issue: by your own scenario, the other guy isn't trained to deal with strikes either.

If it's a choice between two green untested guys, then naturally, if one of them isn't actually green and untested (ie, he has training in some combat sport), you can be pretty confident betting on that person.

I honestly don't understand this mental block people seem to have; where if you do a sport with certain rules, you think you're not allowed to do anything outside those rules in some other situation? Says who? The rules say you're not allowed to throw punches in rugby either, i guess that other guy is fucked too eh?

What is it that people are really trying to argue here?

 

[mrsenor]

terrible

 

[INTERL0PER]

The first story was told to me by a very reliable source. My instructor was also a super sketchy dude. He drank a lot, did drugs (cocaine), and was an all around sketchy dude. If you knew the guy, him shoplifting would be less of a surprise. That's all I know.

I'm almost sure the second guy had training. The second instructor was basically challenged under a rule set where pinning was match terminating - sounds like the realm of a wrestler to me. It would be a really weird to request that if you didn't already know how to grapple.

Yea I think the type of flooring has an impact on the development of combat sports. My old school got new mats where the tatami grip was extremely aggressive - everyones knees were bleeding the first week. Everyone modified their technique by the end of the month.

Honestly, it sounds like your trainers were kind of garbage. And didn't you say the second guy was a self defense jiu jitsu guy? Perhaps he could've done with more sport and competition to keep himself sharp.

I cannot imagine the competition black belts from my gym getting manhandled by a fucking loss prevention guy. Maybe the old, broken down BBs who don't compete anymore.

I also can't imagine wanting to learn from a "super sketchy dude" who does a lot of drugs and shoplifts.

Weird story all round.

 

[ironkhan57]

Is it abnormal for someone to go up to purple belt in nearly a year? One gym I trained at before it closed down (it was an mma gym, and had muay thai, boxing, and bjj also crossfit and flo fittness), there was a guy who is extremely athletic, and strong (keep in mind the instructor is a known and popular black belt named vitor shaolin). A d he was only training for less than a year and he got his purple belt.

Now I don't believe it's impossible since there was kid who was only 18 and got his blue belt in 3 months. I want to see if you guys believe it.

Also the guy compete in wrestling too.

 

[DatCutman]

What is it that people are really trying to argue here?

That BJJ is bad, and we should feel bad.

 

[asian-glow]

Honestly, it sounds like your trainers were kind of garbage. And didn't you say the second guy was a self defense jiu jitsu guy? Perhaps he could've done with more sport and competition to keep himself sharp.

I cannot imagine the competition black belts from my gym getting manhandled by a fucking loss prevention guy. Maybe the old, broken down BBs who don't compete anymore.

I also can't imagine wanting to learn from a "super sketchy dude" who does a lot of drugs and shoplifts.

Weird story all round.

The first instructor who got beat up by the loss prevention was an amazing instructor. He might be the most technical instructor I've ever had. He had a lot of trouble outside the mats though and his reputation was known in the community. Say what you will about his personal life but the man was undoubtedly gifted at understanding bjj.

The second guy had a black belt but a flawed understanding of jiu jitsu and self defense. His philosophies regarding bjj were strange and he had no stand up skills.

 

[beat...people...up?]

Is it abnormal for someone to go up to purple belt in nearly a year? One gym I trained at before it closed down (it was an mma gym, and had muay thai, boxing, and bjj also crossfit and flo fittness), there was a guy who is extremely athletic, and strong (keep in mind the instructor is a known and popular black belt named vitor shaolin). A d he was only training for less than a year and he got his purple belt.

Now I don't believe it's impossible since there was kid who was only 18 and got his blue belt in 3 months. I want to see if you guys believe it.

Also the guy compete in wrestling too.

if he came in having wrestled already, it's not at all surprising that he'd be purple in a year.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

What a new and original thread

 

[Kinosis]

How much is pure sport BJJ translateable to fighting nowadays, especially compared to old school GJJ?

I remember Roger Gracie saying only about 30% of his sport bjj transferred over to MMA, and he doesn't even have a fancy sport bjj style. So for most guys, it's much less than that.

 

[Jack Handy jr]

don't want to spoil it for you by saying who won

 

[TheMaster]

I remember Roger Gracie saying only about 30% of his sport bjj transferred over to MMA, and he doesn't even have a fancy sport bjj style. So for most guys, it's much less than that.

Wow. Did not know he assessed it as that low, at least he is being frank and honest about it.

View attachment 464415

don't want to spoil it for you by saying who won

I really get tired when people say 'look at first couple UFCs'.
Your picture sums it up but not how you think. You have the worlds best of the best at the time for BJJ in a Gracie, whose family was used to fighting this style for 60 years vs various low club level martial artists or boxers who have no idea what to expect and are giving this new 'toughman type stuff' a go based on an ad they saw, like a boxer wearing one glove.

I gave credit to Royce for beating Ken, his only legit opponent who knew the game.
Kimo- untrained muscle guy, credit Royce barely won clinging to the pony tail but he was out weighed by a good 60 pounds so a good perfomance.

Severn- high level pure wrestler but actually by his admission likely 'let' Royce win by going easy as he was not comfortable elbowing him on the ground and he felt Helio woulnt have stopped it if he had hurt Royce bad. Plus on hard surface vs Severn, Royce would have been in a coma at the end of it.

So really the bulk of his impressive wins against unknown unprepared joes who trained MA's at the local dojo in their free time and probably watched van damme movies. Lets not pretend it was anything other than that.

Plus if you read the actual thread, we have some interesting real world examples that are more representative like some random 'loss prevention guy' giving a high level technical BJJ blackbelt an ass kicking.

Yes there are examples the other way also but the marketing myth the Gracies made was totally shattered years ago.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Wow. Did not know he assessed it as that low, at least he is being frank and honest about it.



I really get tired when people say 'look at first couple UFCs'.
Your picture sums it up but not how you think. You have the worlds best of the best at the time for BJJ in a Gracie, whose family was used to fighting this style for 60 years vs various low club level martial artists or boxers who have no idea what to expect and are giving this new 'toughman type stuff' a go based on an ad they saw, like a boxer wearing one glove.

I gave credit to Royce for beating Ken, his only legit opponent who knew the game.
Kimo- untrained muscle guy, credit Royce barely won clinging to the pony tail but he was out weighed by a good 60 pounds so a good perfomance.

Severn- high level pure wrestler but actually by his admission likely 'let' Royce win by going easy as he was not comfortable elbowing him on the ground and he felt Helio woulnt have stopped it if he had hurt Royce bad. Plus on hard surface vs Severn, Royce would have been in a coma at the end of it.

So really the bulk of his impressive wins against unknown unprepared joes who trained MA's at the local dojo in their free time and probably watched van damme movies. Lets not pretend it was anything other than that.

Plus if you read the actual thread, we have some interesting real world examples that are more representative like some random 'loss prevention guy' giving a high level technical BJJ blackbelt an ass kicking.

Yes there are examples the other way also but the marketing myth the Gracies made was totally shattered years ago.

where the heck do you get that royce ws the best of bjj? he wasnt even the best of his family, let alone he was small...

gegard gordou was a tough sob, he kept fighting much longer, He also beat pat smith remco pardoel. Saying that kimo had no prior training is quite silly, it was clear he had some grappling training, he kept on fighting and not long he did have a few good wins.

But at the time, who wasnt unknown? everyone was unknonw, even royce, so who did you expect him to fight? mike tyson? steven seagal? JCVD? or Rocky?

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Is it abnormal for someone to go up to purple belt in nearly a year? One gym I trained at before it closed down (it was an mma gym, and had muay thai, boxing, and bjj also crossfit and flo fittness), there was a guy who is extremely athletic, and strong (keep in mind the instructor is a known and popular black belt named vitor shaolin). A d he was only training for less than a year and he got his purple belt.

Now I don't believe it's impossible since there was kid who was only 18 and got his blue belt in 3 months. I want to see if you guys believe it.

Also the guy compete in wrestling too.

if he was a wrestler, he already had years of grappling experience.

 

[Coconutwater]

All things being equal, the sport BJJ guy will most likely win simply because he or she has some kind of strategy to employ and throw strikes if needed. The untrained person may be strong and powerful, but technique offsets a lot of strength and someone with some kind of training often beats a strong person who possesses good instincts but lacks any training in a respectable art.

 

[Thaijitsu612]

Yea but one guy is good at taking punches. Against a non puncher.

So this "untrained" opponent is just naturally good at throwing punches as well as taking them?

He's sandbagging, dude is trained.

 

[ChrisK1]

People are insane if they think that sport jiu jitsu cannot be applied in the real world. Really? Even an experience 3/4 stripe white would have the advantage. And then people will say, "O well what if the guy was 250lbs 6,3 and brock lesnars cousin". WHAT IF. What if the guy had knuckle dusters or a glock?

Let Renzo tell it like it is.

https://www.bjjee.com/bjj-news/renz...et-jiu-jitsu-are-beautiful-in-different-ways/

 

[Nik123]

I said it before in this thread and I’ll say it again. It’s clear many people saying the stronger untrained guy would beat a bjj black belt have never trained bjj. On a basic level, the simple difference in stamina and conditioning would be too much for an untrained person.

As a blue belt I have my way with most bigger stronger white belts. And most of these have a few months under their belt. Even if strikes were involved (I’ve been in street fights growing up, been punched multiple times) - I would have confidence in being able to hold my own. And I’m probably in the bottom 5-10% of people at my academy who you would not want to fuck with on the streets lol.

Now a ‘sport’ black belt is someone who competes regularly and has top notch skills, cardio, speed, conditioning, timing, instinct, and weight distribution. The untrained guy would have slim to no chance.

All the black belt would have to do is to take him down, and just keep him in mount, knee on belly or side control for a minute - the stronger noob would gas himself out trying to escape - guaranteed.

If the black belt had bad intentions, the untrained guy would be in very serious trouble - with no tools to stop or understand what is happening to him.

 

[TroldeAnsigt]

I've been to many schools where TD's and nogi were practiced so sparsely they were almost a waste of time. Almost all schools also don't practice defending against punches or if they do, it's once again so infrequent or unrealistic that it's also a waste of time.

In my experience, a vast majority of bjj guys have a negligent amount of experience on their feet, even in a grappling context. Couple this with a sport culture that encourages pulling guard and you are giving the puncher the best chance possible both on the feet and on the ground.

I have two instructors, both of whom were black belts under separate equally legit, traditional lineages (if lineage means anything to you. This story will tell you it means little).

1. My first instructor tried to steal something from a super market. He was confronted by loss prevention. I heard my instructor went for a heel hook and got his ass beat by loss prevention guy. Let us assume that loss prevention guy has no experience or at least isn't a black belt. My instructor is a small dude - about 135lbs when I saw him last. He was supposedly a judo brown belt but I never saw him stand up once.

2. My former instructor was apparently "challenged" by a coworker to "hold him down" after discovering he was a black belt. Let's assume the challenger has some wrestling/grappling experience but is also not a black belt. This black belt isn't very good, his stand up is atrocious, and his cardio is garbage. My instructor could not take him down, apparently pulled guard, and went for an armbar. At some point they agree to stop the match but I forget why. My instructor's head looked like it had a leopard pattern - big bruises everywhere - and his elbows were skinned pretty good.

One interesting fact about both instances is that both instructors were self defense instructors. Neither person was prepared for how someone acts outside of a simulated, grappling context.

I agree, so much talk about "sport bjj" not being good for self defence, but you never truly learn to grapple with a guy who is resisting until you compete. Rolling in the gym and at a tournament are completely different and all competitors will tell you this. I believe they are better suited to handle the stress of a fight also, and will have better muscle memory and be able to impose their will on a random strong guy in a scuffle.