Sport BJJ blackbelt vs strong untrained dude who can punch, in a fight with strikes. Who takes it?

[TheMaster]

I'd give a 6 months white belt a 99% chance of beating an untrained attacker.

The random Loss prevention guy says otherwise, he is 1-0 against BJJ blackbelts.

Loss prevention in action


Soon to be released alongside 'Gracies in Action' as a training vid.
Actually to be fair, loss prevention might be used to confronting and maybe apprehending people sometimes so that could count as a type of 'training'.

It depends on the individual in a real fight alot more. If you add strikes there are no doubt many BJJ 6 month whitebelts who would actually beat up BJJ blackbelts just by virtue of being tougher, being able to take a punch and deliver one and having enough defensive knowledge on the ground to take out a blackbelt who cant take a punch or hard slap. This would be multiplied if the whitebelt had other training background like wrestling.

Same could hold true for an untrained guy but then he needs to be that much bigger or stronger to neutralize with strength if it goes to ground. If hes been in a few real scraps with punches involved and the sport BJJ guys has never been hit he still might have the edge depending on these variables.

 

[babycart]

Depends on the venue, really. The first one to escalate and initiate gains the advantage. If one knows how to distract with words (something not commonly taught in MA schools, as it is criminal territory) and ambush, he holds the aces.

 

[zeli_papa]

Watch that Eddie Bravo event where you can throw slaps. Many sport BJJ guys turtle up from them. One guy ate so many from mount without even attempting to escape, because he froze up for a long time, the fight got stopped....from slaps.

You're talking about two highly skilled grapplers, it's a totally different with people who never trained grappling in their life

 

[TroldeAnsigt]

The random Loss prevention guy says otherwise, he is 1-0 against BJJ blackbelts.

Loss prevention in action


Soon to be released alongside 'Gracies in Action' as a training vid.
Actually to be fair, loss prevention might be used to confronting and maybe apprehending people sometimes so that could count as a type of 'training'.

It depends on the individual in a real fight alot more. If you add strikes there are no doubt many BJJ 6 month whitebelts who would actually beat up BJJ blackbelts just by virtue of being tougher, being able to take a punch and deliver one and having enough defensive knowledge on the ground to take out a blackbelt who cant take a punch or hard slap. This would be multiplied if the whitebelt had other training background like wrestling.

Same could hold true for an untrained guy but then he needs to be that much bigger or stronger to neutralize with strength if it goes to ground. If hes been in a few real scraps with punches involved and the sport BJJ guys has never been hit he still might have the edge depending on these variables.

What are you out to prove with this thread? You seem to have some kind of hate towards BJJ, or wanting to prove it ineffective.
Its obvious that grapplers are not as used to punches as people who train striking, but to say a Black belt will instantly crumble in a street altercation with some random guy (who is untrained might I add) seems too far out, considering random people on the street are not used to punches or physical contact like a grappler is.
And a 6 month White belt beating a black belt when strikes are involved? You seriously think that you after 6 months have enough knowledge to nullify a black belt in a fight? Then explain how submissions in MMA happen, often against guys with more than 6 month training.

You have some weird agenda against BJJ, and I dont know why. I saw you post another thread about why judo is superior to bjj, so I guess youre one of those judo guys feeling insecure about his martial art losing popularity.
Stop this mindset and realize that grappling is grappling, and to take what is best from each art and make a style that works for you.

 

[zeli_papa]

I've been to many schools where TD's and nogi were practiced so sparsely they were almost a waste of time. Almost all schools also don't practice defending against punches or if they do, it's once again so infrequent or unrealistic that it's also a waste of time.

In my experience, a vast majority of bjj guys have a negligent amount of experience on their feet, even in a grappling context. Couple this with a sport culture that encourages pulling guard and you are giving the puncher the best chance possible both on the feet and on the ground.

I have two instructors, both of whom were black belts under separate equally legit, traditional lineages (if lineage means anything to you. This story will tell you it means little).

1. My first instructor tried to steal something from a super market. He was confronted by loss prevention. I heard my instructor went for a heel hook and got his ass beat by loss prevention guy. Let us assume that loss prevention guy has no experience or at least isn't a black belt. My instructor is a small dude - about 135lbs when I saw him last. He was supposedly a judo brown belt but I never saw him stand up once.

2. My former instructor was apparently "challenged" by a coworker to "hold him down" after discovering he was a black belt. Let's assume the challenger has some wrestling/grappling experience but is also not a black belt. This black belt isn't very good, his stand up is atrocious, and his cardio is garbage. My instructor could not take him down, apparently pulled guard, and went for an armbar. At some point they agree to stop the match but I forget why. My instructor's head looked like it had a leopard pattern - big bruises everywhere - and his elbows were skinned pretty good.

One interesting fact about both instances is that both instructors were self defense instructors. Neither person was prepared for how someone acts outside of a simulated, grappling context.

Wow, you really had some extraordinary instructors lol

 

[yetanother]

It depends on the individual in a real fight alot more. If you add strikes there are no doubt many BJJ 6 month whitebelts who would actually beat up BJJ blackbelts just by virtue of being tougher, being able to take a punch and deliver one and having enough defensive knowledge on the ground to take out a blackbelt who cant take a punch or hard slap.

In a random street fight against a black belt it seems likely a 6 month white belt would likely attempt to grapple because that's what he has been training for the last 6 months. I wouldn't be concerned if some crappy white belt pulled guard on me or tried to take me down in a street fight. His jiu jitu would just make him try to engage in scenarios where is helpless and I could punch him in the face at will.

 

[asian-glow]

Wow, you really had some extraordinary instructors lol

The first one was very technical, just not so stellar in other aspects of his life.
The second instructor was not good, but that was OK, because the main instructor who taught most of the time was.

Also to be fair, both were rather small gyms that were on the cheaper side. I know everyone wants to train at the most elite institutions possible but money and convenience were my most important considerations. Both schools were 5 minutes away from me and I was able to negotiate a somewhat satisfactory deal. I'd like to think that the me in this universe would destroy the me in an alternate universe where I got to train at better places but more infrequently. In either world I'm sure I had a good time.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

The random Loss prevention guy says otherwise, he is 1-0 against BJJ blackbelts.

Loss prevention in action


Soon to be released alongside 'Gracies in Action' as a training vid.
Actually to be fair, loss prevention might be used to confronting and maybe apprehending people sometimes so that could count as a type of 'training'.

It depends on the individual in a real fight alot more. If you add strikes there are no doubt many BJJ 6 month whitebelts who would actually beat up BJJ blackbelts just by virtue of being tougher, being able to take a punch and deliver one and having enough defensive knowledge on the ground to take out a blackbelt who cant take a punch or hard slap. This would be multiplied if the whitebelt had other training background like wrestling.

Same could hold true for an untrained guy but then he needs to be that much bigger or stronger to neutralize with strength if it goes to ground. If hes been in a few real scraps with punches involved and the sport BJJ guys has never been hit he still might have the edge depending on these variables.

your assming somehow the white belt will get on top... since when bjj black belts arent able to throw punches? what a ridiculous statment...

 

[Evenflow80]

I dont know about getting punched in the face, but even as just a blue belt I am always surprised at how easy it is to handle new guys who come to our gym no matter how big they are. Its funny to think just how lost people truly are when it comes to ground grappling. You never really realize it until you've seen it in person. You think it would be easy and common sense, i.e get on top, or take the back, etc but in practice, you need a ton of mat time to put it all together in a combat situation.

My bet would be with the black belt, even with punches involved. The only thing I would hesitate on is if the BB can take down the guy at all. Like many people here have said, takedowns in modern BJJ are pretty sad.

 

[yetanother]

takedowns in modern BJJ are pretty sad.

They always where.

 

[imarayda]

The random Loss prevention guy says otherwise, he is 1-0 against BJJ blackbelts.

Loss prevention in action


Soon to be released alongside 'Gracies in Action' as a training vid.
Actually to be fair, loss prevention might be used to confronting and maybe apprehending people sometimes so that could count as a type of 'training'.

It depends on the individual in a real fight alot more. If you add strikes there are no doubt many BJJ 6 month whitebelts who would actually beat up BJJ blackbelts just by virtue of being tougher, being able to take a punch and deliver one and having enough defensive knowledge on the ground to take out a blackbelt who cant take a punch or hard slap. This would be multiplied if the whitebelt had other training background like wrestling.

Same could hold true for an untrained guy but then he needs to be that much bigger or stronger to neutralize with strength if it goes to ground. If hes been in a few real scraps with punches involved and the sport BJJ guys has never been hit he still might have the edge depending on these variables.

Like I said 99%. The difference between a new white belt and a guy who has been training for 6 months is huge.

 

[Evenflow80]

They always where.

Were they? I mean right now here I am trainign every day to dominate untrained people on the ground, but how exactly will I get the fight there?

Ill be honest: even against untrained people I have my doubts

 

[TheMaster]

What are you out to prove with this thread? You seem to have some kind of hate towards BJJ, or wanting to prove it ineffective.
Its obvious that grapplers are not as used to punches as people who train striking, but to say a Black belt will instantly crumble in a street altercation with some random guy (who is untrained might I add) seems too far out, considering random people on the street are not used to punches or physical contact like a grappler is.
And a 6 month White belt beating a black belt when strikes are involved? You seriously think that you after 6 months have enough knowledge to nullify a black belt in a fight? Then explain how submissions in MMA happen, often against guys with more than 6 month training.

You have some weird agenda against BJJ, and I dont know why. I saw you post another thread about why judo is superior to bjj, so I guess youre one of those judo guys feeling insecure about his martial art losing popularity.
Stop this mindset and realize that grappling is grappling, and to take what is best from each art and make a style that works for you.

I have always been interested in the combat effectiveness of martial arts in realworld situations hence this thread.

Go back 15-20 years and the semi-delusional idolization of BJJ as the 'ultimate self defence system' (always a joke of an idea) vs all other styles, including Judo which I have a background in was still in full flow.
Thus to observe the gradual loss of combat effectiveness of the system as it becomes more focussed on sport grappling, and to hear eg Rickson criticise modern BJJ for its lack of self defence application compared to GJJ etc and hear others say only 30% of BJJ translates to mma etc...like another poster said it is a huge turnaround.

So naturally the question comes up again. How would a bigger, stronger untrained guy who is tough and with a good natural punch fare against a modern sport BJJ blackbelt who never trained against a punch in his life?
Answers so far have been interesting and when a style has promoted itself as the be all end all of MA for that long the debate over its applicability now is warranted.

 

[TroldeAnsigt]

I have always been interested in the combat effectiveness of martial arts in realworld situations hence this thread.

Go back 15-20 years and the semi-delusional idolization of BJJ as the 'ultimate self defence system' (always a joke of an idea) vs all other styles, including Judo which I have a background in was still in full flow.
Thus to observe the gradual loss of combat effectiveness of the system as it becomes more focussed on sport grappling, and to hear eg Rickson criticise modern BJJ for its lack of self defence application compared to GJJ etc and hear others say only 30% of BJJ translates to mma etc...like another poster said it is a huge turnaround.

So naturally the question comes up again. How would a bigger, stronger untrained guy who is tough and with a good natural punch fare against a modern sport BJJ blackbelt who never trained against a punch in his life?
Answers so far have been interesting and when a style has promoted itself as the be all end all of MA for that long the debate over its applicability now is warranted.

If you really wanted to know, you wouldnt type like you do. It's obvious you're a judo guy who has a hate boner for bjj. You have literally made a thread called "why judo beats bjj and most other styles" all about how a single judo throw can kill a person.
It's weird you have this sort of sense that a BJJ black belt will just lie down and pull guard when someone attacks him, or he will just freeze up because this supposedly untrained guy (with a good natural punch, which is supposed to mean what?) swings at him. Apparently all BJJ guys suddenly die of a punch, but if its a judo black belt he will magically be able to defend punches and throw multiple attackers around like you wrote in your other thread.

Stop thinking in styles, and think more about grappling as a whole. Everything is slowly merging, you see BJJ guys use judo and wrestling and vice versa. What ever technique fits you and your game use it, and if you're worried about self defence try and put on some gloves and do some striking to see how your training translates.

 

[DatCutman]

What ever technique fits you and your game use it, and if you're worried about self defence try and put on some gloves and do some striking to see how your training translates.

I do not believe the Master trains, so I think this would be difficult for him.

 

[Kingbedlam]

Were they? I mean right now here I am trainign every day to dominate untrained people on the ground, but how exactly will I get the fight there?

Ill be honest: even against untrained people I have my doubts

I always thought that BJJ takedowns were designed to take down strikers. Whenever you run into a wrestler or Judoka, you pull guard, or go for leglocks.

 

[DatCutman]

including Judo which I have a background in

What exactly does this mean? What rank did you actually achieve?

Edit:
The greatest irony in all of these threads he creates, is the assertion that Judo is "more str33t" than BJJ, because BJJ is turning into some filthy guardplay sport. And yet, Jigoro Kano sought to develop a core set of techniques and ultimately develop a martial sport that would be taught in schools (he succeeded). He was the one who removed the "street" techniques, such as small joint manipulation and attacking the groin.

The argument is that a martial sport, designed for sporting, in which "street" tactics were removed, is more effective than another sport, because the latter is a sport, and does not train "street" tactics.

It's fucking madness.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Were they? I mean right now here I am trainign every day to dominate untrained people on the ground, but how exactly will I get the fight there?

Ill be honest: even against untrained people I have my doubts

You will have a hard time taking down untrained people if you are just grappling, that’s normal, cause your tds suck... but it is not very hard to fake a punch/kick clinch, body lock, trip...

 

[Evenflow80]

You will have a hard time taking down untrained people if you are just grappling, that’s normal, cause your tds suck... but it is not very hard to fake a punch/kick clinch, body lock, trip...

Thats what I think Id ultimately do too, just try to clinch and clumsily take down. Not pretty, but probably the easiest way

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Thats what I think Id ultimately do too, just try to clinch and clumsily take down. Not pretty, but probably the easiest way

It’s really not that hard, shogun made career in pride out of that basic take down