Economy The U.S-China Trade War: China said it would impose retaliatory tariffs on $75 billion in U.S. goods

[NoDak]

Fair enough, I feel similarly towards your nation, and tbh I feel just as justified in that or even more so. I try to study all history, not just the one with a western perspective. Americas body count far exceeds the PRC in terms of harming civilians, Most will refer to the cultural revolution but most of those people died due to starvation.

Yes but how did those revolutions come about? Most historians agree that Europe would have the same overpopulation problems as Asia/Africa if not for the beubonic plague. The plague mostly wiped out the underclass, the uneducated and left the aristocratic class.

Afterwards came the renaissance and the age of science. Europeans average IQ peaked at this time. You can look to that specific event as the catalyst of European exceptionalism.

Also being the most westward in Eurasia saved them from being set back 200 years like the Middle East during the Mongol dynasty. At the time the middle east was on par with Europe in terms of advancement and they were there main rivals militarily.

In the span of a few centuries, their main rivals were eliminated, their average intelligence raised and their population and sanitation problems solved. Out of misery comes prosperity, the plague was miserable time for Europeans but also their greatest gift.

I love these convos, bruv.

There's no real fundamental disagreement here and I wouldn't dispute it as a major driver for what brought about Euro exceptionalism but ofc I don't really believe in exceptionalism much less supremacist ideology and narratives. It is exceptional that what could largely be originally described as Northwestern European culture managed to yield such universal truths and methods though.

 

[SaiWa]

CCP sympathizers: it’s worth it because through all the bad China is rich and an emerging power now
Me: other Chinese societies prospered without all the negativity of communism
CCP sympathizers: LOL YOU KNOW FUCK ALL ABOUT CHINESE HISTORY. LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT SOMETHING YOU KNOW
Me:....

China fucked themselves over first and foremost because of retarded top-down decisions isolating themselves from the world and stagnating.

Saying “lol you don’t know Chinese history” is not a rebuttal or argument.

Do you accept the fact that Chinese societies were able to prosper without a Communist party? So why was the CCP necessary when in reality they starved and kill a ton of Chinese when they could have been richer earlier and have personal freedom on top of that?

Please. Pretending that the western world had no influence at all with how China ended up being where it is now is showing complete ignorance for history. They aren't a fractured nation with different warring factions fighting each other for control like Afghanistan or Iraq. Is that what you would have preferred? All you've given me are examples of small areas (islands or smaller countries with small populations) that were heavily supported by western nations for. We're talking about a large nation with a wide variety of different ethnic Asians that historically warred and fought each other for milleniums and yet there are unified now.

Find me another country as large as China with that many different languages/dialects all working together as a nation please.

 

[Black Helicopters]

Please. Pretending that the western world had no influence at all with how China ended up being where it is now is showing complete ignorance for history. They aren't a fractured nation with different warring factions fighting each other for control like Afghanistan or Iraq. Is that what you would have preferred? All you've given me are examples of small areas (islands or smaller countries with small populations) that were heavily supported by western nations for. We're talking about a large nation with a wide variety of different ethnic Asians that historically warred and fought each other for milleniums and yet there are unified now.

Find me another country as large as China with that many different languages/dialects all working together as a nation please.

Oh well I guess a unified China is that important where starvation and murder by the state is worth it.

 

[SaiWa]

Oh well I guess a unified China is that important where starvation and murder by the state is worth it.

you talk as if you KNOW it couldn't have been worse. I am telling you that you don't know shit. PRC could have fucked it up even more and China could still be fractured and weak with different ethnic Chinese factions fighting for dominance.

And you are talking to someone who's family was directly affected by Mao's policies. my grandfather's family lost all that he owned (farm, workers, wealth) to those fuckers. My family has lost more to Communism than most (once with Chinese communism and once with Vietnamese Communism).

But as I've pointed out to you the PRC had to deal with unifying a weak and fractured nation of different ethnic background and speaking different language/dialect, educate a vast majority of its citizens, go through their industrial revolution all the while dealing with foreign interference. They more or less strong-armed the populace into obedience and told them this is what we need to do together to become a great nation. Did they suffer along the way? Yes. But it's not as if they weren't suffering before Mao came into power and China is no longer considered a weak nation.

 

[ShinkanPo]

China was a weak country because Mao almost destroys it with the cultural revolution and his great leap forward.

China also has far more natural resources than Korea.

We need to another Mao in China! The CIA and other forces should have promoted more Maoism and more communism in China

 

[Black Helicopters]

you talk as if you KNOW it couldn't have been worse. I am telling you that you don't know shit. PRC could have fucked it up even more and China could still be fractured and weak with different ethnic Chinese factions fighting for dominance.

And you are talking to someone who's family was directly affected by Mao's policies. my grandfather's family lost all that he owned (farm, workers, wealth) to those fuckers. My family has lost more to Communism than most (once with Chinese communism and once with Vietnamese Communism).

But as I've pointed out to you the PRC had to deal with unifying a weak and fractured nation of different ethnic background and speaking different language/dialect, educate a vast majority of its citizens all the while dealing with foreign interference. They more or less strong-armed the populace into obedience and told them this is what we need to do together to become a great nation. Did they suffer along the way? Yes. But it's not as if they weren't suffering before Mao came into power China is no longer considered a weak nation.

China was by no means a great power or even a rising power until their economic reforms, which they could have had in the first place without the communism.

Youre justifying the CCP because they could unify the country with brutal force. I’m not Chinese but apparently unification is a big deal for you guys, I’d rather live in a clean, wealthy, democratic society.

 

[NoDak]

We need to another Mao in China! The CIA and other forces should have promoted more Maoism and more communism in China

Too bad Xi is for the most part brilliant, 'spect for the STEM (Chem) background. China's indigenous achievements over the last five years have been taken to another level, but he violated one of the key Xiaoping principles in being so relatively open about the PRC's global ambitions.

 

[SaiWa]

China was by no means a great power or even a rising power until their economic reforms, which they could have had in the first place without the communism.

Youre justifying the CCP because they could unify the country with brutal force. I’m not Chinese but apparently unification is a big deal for you guys, I’d rather live in a clean, wealthy, democratic society.

I am not justifying anything. I am just telling you they came from shit status to top 5 nation in 50-some odd years and I highly doubt they could have accomplished that in a democratic societal setting. With such a large nation with so many voices (throw in the traditional corruption embedded within the culture.) they would have been tons of infighting (political and physical) preventing them from accomplishing anything.

They are more developed now and I wouldn't mind seeing them slowly convert to a more democratic government but I do not think that will happen anytime soon...

 

[NoDak]

I am not justifying anything. I am just telling you they came from shit status to top 5 nation in 50-some odd years and I highly doubt they could have accomplished that in a democratic societal setting. With such a large nation with so many voices (throw in the traditional corruption embedded within the culture.) they would have been tons of infighting (political and physical) preventing them from accomplishing anything.

They are more developed now and I wouldn't mind seeing them slowly convert to a more democratic government but I do not think that will happen anytime soon...

CCP seems poised to retain Dengism in the sense of economic development and modernization under the governance of a one-party state, and that wasn't ever going to change. On the otherhand, they've broken from Deng policy in two major ways: by scrapping term limits with a strong nudge back towards a form of totalitarian insitutional imprint and gradual rejection of soft power foreign policy.

 

[Orgasmo]

Xi wants all the powers of Mao, but with the economic benefits of Deng's openness policies. Those two are contradicting. As a society liberalizes through economic activity, the population become more and more resistant to authoritarian control. If Xi cannot deliver the prosperity and greatness he promises in his "Chinese Dream", he's going to be deposed in an internal party coup. I think he's already in hot waters with the party elders over his power grab and guns blazing foreign policy.

 

[SaiWa]

CCP seems poised to retain Dengism in the sense of economic development and modernization under the governance of a one-party state, and that wasn't ever going to change. On the otherhand, they've broken from Deng policy in two major ways: by scrapping term limits with a strong nudge back towards a form of totalitarian insitutional imprint and gradual rejection of soft power foreign policy.

yeah I wasn't happy at all to hear about the scrapping of term limits. The one solace I can only find is that Xi has an impeccable record (but I know that's on the surface). He comes from a privileged family but also experienced a poor rural life once his father fell out of favor. He's studied engineering so that means he's not a dumbass. My parents think highly of him because of his anti-corruption campaign and policies and they both hate communism. I just hoping the scrapping of term limit dies with him and they re-institute it for the next 'paramount leader'...

 

[Rod1]

you talk as if you KNOW it couldn't have been worse. I am telling you that you don't know shit. PRC could have fucked it up even more and China could still be fractured and weak with different ethnic Chinese factions fighting for dominance.

And you are talking to someone who's family was directly affected by Mao's policies. my grandfather's family lost all that he owned (farm, workers, wealth) to those fuckers. My family has lost more to Communism than most (once with Chinese communism and once with Vietnamese Communism).

But as I've pointed out to you the PRC had to deal with unifying a weak and fractured nation of different ethnic background and speaking different language/dialect, educate a vast majority of its citizens, go through their industrial revolution all the while dealing with foreign interference. They more or less strong-armed the populace into obedience and told them this is what we need to do together to become a great nation. Did they suffer along the way? Yes. But it's not as if they weren't suffering before Mao came into power and China is no longer considered a weak nation.

China's weakness is a speck of time in its otherwise rich and amazing history both culturally and economically China has always been strong.

Virtually every major nation that fell behind the XIX industrialization suffered but otherwise recovered with a plus, China would had been no different, even if it meant that China would be 2 or 3 countries without unification that would had been preferable to the lost generations given by the PRC.

You talk as if China is now a first world country with a bright future when its not, its future isnt even clear at this point that they failed to properly transition from third world benevolent dictatorship into a socially free, market economy and they are going to pay for it and take a shitload of people with them due to the PRC communist party ambitions.

 

[Rod1]

yeah I wasn't happy at all to hear about the scrapping of term limits. The one solace I can only find is that Xi has an impeccable record (but I know that's on the surface). He comes from a privileged family but also experienced a poor rural life once his father fell out of favor. He's studied engineering so that means he's not a dumbass. My parents think highly of him because of his anti-corruption campaign and policies and they both hate communism. I just hoping the scrapping of term limit dies with him and they re-institute it for the next 'paramount leader'...

His anti-corruption campaign was a means to root out political opposition, dont be naive.

 

[SaiWa]

His anti-corruption campaign was a means to root out political opposition, dont be naive.

Be as it may it had the effect of actually rooting out corruption as well. And this is from first hand accounts with people I know that live in China. The crackdowns and enforcements were legit and illegal shit such as prostitution (once brazenly out in the open) were forced to go underground. This is what Xi is known for by the common Chinese people and that's why he's respected.

 

[SaiWa]

China's weakness is a speck of time in its otherwise rich and amazing history both culturally and economically China has always been strong.

Virtually every major nation that fell behind the XIX industrialization suffered but otherwise recovered with a plus, China would had been no different, even if it meant that China would be 2 or 3 countries without unification that would had been preferable to the lost generations given by the PRC.

You talk as if China is now a first world country with a bright future when its not, its future isnt even clear at this point that they failed to properly transition from third world benevolent dictatorship into a socially free, market economy and they are going to pay for it and take a shitload of people with them due to the PRC communist party ambitions.

Doubtful. It's future is certainly brighter than Mexico's. You let me know when Mexico finally gets their shit together and stamp out their drug cartel problems so I can properly visit and tour the country...

 

[Black Helicopters]

I am not justifying anything. I am just telling you they came from shit status to top 5 nation in 50-some odd years and I highly doubt they could have accomplished that in a democratic societal setting. With such a large nation with so many voices (throw in the traditional corruption embedded within the culture.) they would have been tons of infighting (political and physical) preventing them from accomplishing anything.

They are more developed now and I wouldn't mind seeing them slowly convert to a more democratic government but I do not think that will happen anytime soon...

Obviously I have been disagreeing with this POV but at least it’s a good argument that I can’t disprove rather than “lol you don’t know about China”

But to make it clear, when I speak of Asian democracies, I never expected them to go straight to democracy. That would be a disaster and it would turn out exactly how you described. I would imagine a right wing dictator rule that would have forced unity but had free markets and eventually lead the way to democracy like many other countries have. Singapore, Taiwan, and Hong Kong were not democratic for a very long time but they had free markets and a government that didn’t intend to let them starve for no reason so they skipped the mass killings by the state and have had material wealth for a while now.

 

[SaiWa]

Obviously I have been disagreeing with this POV but at least it’s a good argument that I can’t disprove rather than “lol you don’t know about China”

But to make it clear, when I speak of Asian democracies, I never expected them to go straight to democracy. That would be a disaster and it would turn out exactly how you described. I would imagine a right wing dictator rule that would have forced unity but had free markets and eventually lead the way to democracy like many other countries have. Singapore, Taiwan, and Hong Kong were not democratic for a very long time but they had free markets and a government that didn’t intend to let them starve for no reason so they skipped the mass killings by the state and have had material wealth for a while now.

A dictator who rules for the people... lol. sounds like a dream. I am hoping Xi is one such person but chances are no but who knows. Power corrupts and he's got tons of it...

I am not defending China's actions as just and they've done tons of shitty things and sacrificed a lot of their people to get there. Their one child policy is particularly cruel to me as there are millions "heihaizi" (aka "black children" born illegally) people that are forced to live underground working illegal jobs because they don't have legal papers. They've ruined a lot of lives because of this policy. I hope Xi does something to fix their plight (give them their citizenship and some reparations)...

 

[Rod1]

Be as it may it had the effect of actually rooting out corruption as well. And this is from first hand accounts with people I know that live in China. The crackdowns and enforcements were legit and illegal shit such as prostitution (once brazenly out in the open) were forced to go underground. This is what Xi is known for by the common Chinese people and that's why he's respected.

Is he is as popular as you say then why can China hold elections he will win them by a large margin isnt?

Doubtful. It's future is certainly brighter than Mexico's. You let me know when Mexico finally gets their shit together and stamp out their drug cartel problems so I can properly visit and tour the country...

Really?

Things that Mexico has that China doesnt.

-Floating, stable currency.
-Democracy.
-Freedom of the press.
-Freedom of movement.
-Constitutional rights.
-Young population.
-Fertility rates around replacement levels.
-Tolerable pollution levels.
-Healthy corporate debt.

Also Mexico receives around 32 millions international tourists arrivals every year, thats around 25% of its entire population coming in and out of the country every year.

China on the other hand receives roughly 50 million tourists thats around 4% of its population.

So yeah, the future is far more brighter in Mexico than China, by a longshot.

 

[Rod1]

I am not justifying anything. I am just telling you they came from shit status to top 5 nation in 50-some odd years and I highly doubt they could have accomplished that in a democratic societal setting. With such a large nation with so many voices (throw in the traditional corruption embedded within the culture.) they would have been tons of infighting (political and physical) preventing them from accomplishing anything.

They are more developed now and I wouldn't mind seeing them slowly convert to a more democratic government but I do not think that will happen anytime soon...

They are a top 5 nation mainly due to its massive population, a massive population that is also heading towards demographic implosion.

In a per capita basis China is still pretty fucked up and its massive corporate debt is going to blow up in the short to mid term because Xi is preventing its correction for political reasons.

 

[Black Helicopters]

A dictator who rules for the people... lol. sounds like a dream. I am hoping Xi is one such person but chances are no but who knows. Power corrupts and he's got tons of it...

I am not defending China's actions as just and they've done tons of shitty things and sacrificed a lot of their people to get there. Their one child policy is particularly cruel to me as there are millions "heihaizi" (aka "black children" born illegally) people that are forced to live underground working illegal jobs because they don't have legal papers. They've ruined a lot of lives because of this policy. I hope Xi does something to fix their plight (give them their citizenship and some reparations)...

I didn’t mean a benevolent dictator, I just meant not putting the Chinese through a cultural revolution and utter police state. Low standards but better than the CCP.