Economy The U.S-China Trade War: China said it would impose retaliatory tariffs on $75 billion in U.S. goods

[Black Helicopters]

Trying to give the CCP credit for pulling the Chinese out of poverty when other Chinese societies like Hong Kong and Taiwan not only did it earlier but also better, in the sense that they have higher GDP per capita, all without a police state, infuriates me.

China does not need the CCP and the good they’ve done has not outweighed the harm they’ve done. I understand looking at the issues from both sides but I’ve done that and I’ve come to the conclusion that one side is far more shitty than the other

Sorry for getting off topic, I know Arkain is gonna get annoyed by this.

 

[Rod1]

The middle east is where they are most active at the moment and they support terrorists and dictators, you can't simply eliminate an entire region to fit your argument.

Im not eliminating an entire region, middle easteners hate America, and with good reasons.

They also do alot of work in South America, arming rebellions and toppling governments. Democracy doesn't work everywhere, in parts of SEA, Africa and South America we see failed democracies everywhere. Also you can't claim to care about civil rights and then inflict so much civilian casualties in the last 50 years.

Where exactly in South America is the US arming rebellions and toppling governments?

And if democracies are failing is in great part thanks for totalitarian regimes assholes like China helping legitimize dictators.

China does business with anyone that has the money or resources, they don't care about the type of governance or whether they are dictators. The fact is that places like Africa are still better off now with the deals they've made with China, they are an emerging market.

Indeed, and when you are preying on dictators to sell odious debt or plunder a country, dont come around and wonder why the people of said region end up hating you.

Just like America in the middle-east.

We should know by now that in certain regions of the world theres no point mixing morality and business. Morality plays a backseat when everyones poor and starving, better to do business with a dictator then place crippling sanctions that starve the people even more.

People werent starving in Venezuela, it was one of the richest South American countries before Chavismo.

 

[Rod1]

Taiwan was never going to China peacefully, you think Uncle Sam is just going to sit there and let that happen?

It allowed Hong Kong to make the transition, it alllowed China to enter the WTO.

Only when it was clear the Chinese were not a nation coming out of communism into the XXI century that Americans fought back and barely.

Hong Kong turning more communist is still a relatively recent, ongoing process. It was returned 20 years ago in 1997. I only mark this date because it was a significant shift in how the west viewed China. Mostly thought of as a developing nation (ie shithole) before that, the world payed attention to China on that date for the first time in a while. And started seeing them less as a backwards nation and more as an upstart potential superpower.

China became a "shithole" because of the CCP, look at Taiwain GDP per capita, if the entirety of China was as developed as Taiwan it would amount to half the world GDP.

 

[ShinkanPo]

Im not eliminating an entire region, middle easteners hate America, and with good reasons.







People werent starving in Venezuela, it was one of the richest South American countries before Chavismo.

Venezuela’s Road to Disaster Is Littered With Chinese Cash
Politicized loans left the socialist South American country trapped under a mountain of Chinese debt — but now others want to sign up for Beijing's "generosity."
https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/06/06/venezuelas-road-to-disaster-is-littered-with-chinese-cash/

The Venezuelan and Chinese economies seem like they could hardly have less in common. The Venezuelan government of Nicolás Maduro has looted the state-run oil company Petróleos de Venezuela (PDVSA) to pay for the “Bolivarian revolution,” the socialist movement begun under the late leader Hugo Chávez. With oil prices down, the country is unable even to repair rigs or pay workers to generate income, and the government now faces the prospect of a mass uprising. Meanwhile, half a globe away, China’s gleaming malls stand in stark contrast to Venezuela’s empty shelves.

But Venezuela’s ruinous state has more to do with China than one might think — specifically, with Chinese President Xi Jinping’s plan for expanding China’s global influence through financial diplomacy. Venezuela’s collapse is about to serve as an object lesson on that plan’s high costs for China’s erstwhile partners — and ultimately for China itself.

 

[Rod1]

Venezuela’s Road to Disaster Is Littered With Chinese Cash
Politicized loans left the socialist South American country trapped under a mountain of Chinese debt — but now others want to sign up for Beijing's "generosity."
https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/06/06/venezuelas-road-to-disaster-is-littered-with-chinese-cash/

Venezuela was giving away oil to other "communist" countries like Cuba and China for political reasons and these countries were just reselling it in the international market for a hefty profit.

https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2010/12/15/wikileaks-china-profits-off-cheap-venezuelan-oil/

Fucking assholes, both Cuba and China are 100% to blame for what its going on in Venezuela.

 

[ShinkanPo]

Venezuela was giving away oil to other "communist" countries like Cuba and China for political reasons and these countries were just reselling it in the international market for a hefty profit.

https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2010/12/15/wikileaks-china-profits-off-cheap-venezuelan-oil/

Fucking assholes, both Cuba and China are 100% to blame for what its going on in Venezuela.

So much for Mr.Xi Jim Peng's plan for China to be a world leader in economic development, to bad there are countries who's leaders are so corrupt and evil they will sell their nation to get political support in return.

 

[Rod1]

So much for Mr.Xi Jim Peng's plan for China to be a world leader in economic development, to bad there are countries who's leaders are so corrupt and evil they will sell their nation to get political support in return.

Indeed, the CCP global ambitions cant be realized if democracy spreads around the world. They want everyone to be as corrupt and totalitarian as they are.

 

[ShinkanPo]

Indeed, the CCP global ambitions cant be realized if democracy spreads around the world. They want everyone to be as corrupt and totalitarian as they are.

Their ridiculous plans for total surveillance is just like something out of a Hollywood dystopian fiction staring Arnold Schwarzenegger

 

[TemujinKhan]

You’re attributing ignorance and racism to war mongering lol.

You’re trying to give the CCP credit for Chinese rise to power ignoring the fact that the CCP is why they were held back in the first place.

Ever heard of Taiwan? Hong Kong? Even Singapore, which is majority Chinese and was led by a Chinese man to prosperity? Not to mention other Asian powers like Japan and SK which are also not only more prosperous than China but are democratic.

Congratu-fucking-lations Community Party of China, you brought China out of poverty that you helped put into, with the shockingly simple solution of opening up your markets to the world, all while maintaining a corrupt authoritarian rule.

Fuck off with that bullshit, in the absence of the CCP, China would be richer, would have become richer sooner, and would probably be a stronger nation overall, when you consider all the rich, intelligent, highly skilled people that leave China in large part due to corruption, pollution, and a lack of freedom

Lol you know nothing about the history of China. Chinas central government was disbanded in the 1900s, occupied by Japan and fought a brutal civil war and went through severe droughts which caused mass starvation. This all happened only in the last century.

The CCP didn't cause the poverty, once again you show your ignorance, China has been a dirt poor nation since colonization by western powers and the dismantlement of their central government. It was basically a nation run by warlords for 60 years. The civil war only ended in the 1950s and it took only 30 to bring it from a wasteland to an emerging power.

China is not SK or Taiwan, China had very little foreign investment and was basically shut out of international trade. SK/Taiwan don't have the demographic issues as China, they are relatively small nations, easier to control and mobilize with an ethnically homogenous population.

Chinas success came from developing their manufacturing base, you can't just open up your markets without being able to build efficiently. Give some fucking credit at least where its due. I don't expect much from a brainwashed westerner like yourself though.

 

[TemujinKhan]

Indeed, the CCP global ambitions cant be realized if democracy spreads around the world. They want everyone to be as corrupt and totalitarian as they are.

Bullshit

 

[Rod1]

Bullshit

Name me one country that the Chinese havent tried to corrupt?

 

[TemujinKhan]

It allowed Hong Kong to make the transition, it alllowed China to enter the WTO.

Only when it was clear the Chinese were not a nation coming out of communism into the XXI century that Americans fought back and barely.



China became a "shithole" because of the CCP, look at Taiwain GDP per capita, if the entirety of China was as developed as Taiwan it would amount to half the world GDP.

Dude, China was a massive shithole before the CCP was even a glimmer in Maos eyes. Rod, no offense but you don't understand the history if you think that.

The CCP only came to power in the 1950s, you telling me from 1900-1950 China wasn't a shithole? It was probably far worse, the nation was divided up by warlords, life was incredibly cheap, murder, starvation, drug addiction and general insanity was everywhere. Westerners would get off trains in China and be greeted by 1000s of starving kids begging for money/food every day.

 

[TemujinKhan]

Name me one country that the Chinese havent tried to corrupt?

They do business with corrupt nations but generally speaking they don't meddle with their internal politics. Same can't be said for the US.

 

[TemujinKhan]

Im not eliminating an entire region, middle easteners hate America, and with good reasons.



Where exactly in South America is the US arming rebellions and toppling governments?

https://www.globalresearch.ca/us-ha...-37-victim-nations-since-world-war-ii/5492051

Suprised you're not aware of this. The list is too long to write out, most of its on the link, but heres just a few tidbits:

Chile


The CIA intervened in Chile’s 1958 and 1964 elections. In 1970 a socialist candidate, Salvador Allende, was elected president. The CIA wanted to incite a military coup to prevent his inauguration, but the Chilean army’s chief of staff, General Rene Schneider, opposed this action. The CIA then planned, along with some people in the Chilean military, to assassinate Schneider. This plot failed and Allende took office. President Nixon was not to be dissuaded and he ordered the CIA to create a coup climate: “Make the economy scream,” he said.


What followed were guerilla warfare, arson, bombing, sabotage and terror. ITT and other U.S. corporations with Chilean holdings sponsored demonstrations and strikes. Finally, on September 11, 1973 Allende died either by suicide or by assassination. At that time Henry Kissinger, U.S. Secretary of State, said the following regarding Chile: “I don’t see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist because of the irresponsibility of its own people.” (1)


During 17 years of terror under Allende’s successor, General Augusto Pinochet, an estimated 3,000 Chileans were killed and many others were tortured or “disappeared.” (2,3,4,5)


Also see South America: Operation Condor

Colombia

One estimate is that 67,000 deaths have occurred from the 1960s to recent years due to support by the U.S. of Colombian state terrorism. (1)

According to a 1994 Amnesty International report, more than 20,000 people were killed for political reasons in Colombia since 1986, mainly by the military and its paramilitary allies. Amnesty alleged that “U.S.- supplied military equipment, ostensibly delivered for use against narcotics traffickers, was being used by the Colombian military to commit abuses in the name of “counter-insurgency.” (2) In 2002 another estimate was made that 3,500 people die each year in a U.S. funded civilian war in Colombia. (3)

In 1996 Human Rights Watch issued a report “Assassination Squads in Colombia” which revealed that CIA agents went to Colombia in 1991 to help the military to train undercover agents in anti-subversive activity. (4,5)

In recent years the U.S. government has provided assistance under Plan Colombia. The Colombian government has been charged with using most of the funds for destruction of crops and support of the paramilitary group.

El Salvador

The civil war from 1981 to1992 in El Salvador was financed by $6 billion in U.S. aid given to support the government in its efforts to crush a movement to bring social justice to the people in that nation of about 8 million people. (1)
During that time U.S. military advisers demonstrated methods of torture on teenage prisoners, according to an interview with a deserter from the Salvadoran army published in the New York Times. This former member of the Salvadoran National Guard testified that he was a member of a squad of twelve who found people who they were told were guerillas and tortured them. Part of the training he received was in torture at a U.S. location somewhere in Panama. (2)

About 900 villagers were massacred in the village of El Mozote in 1981. Ten of the twelve El Salvadoran government soldiers cited as participating in this act were graduates of the School of the Americas operated by the U.S. (2) They were only a small part of about 75,000 people killed during that civil war. (1)

According to a 1993 United Nations’ Truth Commission report, over 96 % of the human rights violations carried out during the war were committed by the Salvadoran army or the paramilitary deaths squads associated with the Salvadoran army. (3)

That commission linked graduates of the School of the Americas to many notorious killings. The New York Times and the Washington Post followed with scathing articles. In 1996, the White House Oversight Board issued a report that supported many of the charges against that school made by Rev. Roy Bourgeois, head of the School of the Americas Watch. That same year the Pentagon released formerly classified reports indicating that graduates were trained in killing, extortion, and physical abuse for interrogations, false imprisonment and other methods of control. (4)

Grenada

The CIA began to destabilize Grenada in 1979 after Maurice Bishop became president, partially because he refused to join the quarantine of Cuba. The campaign against him resulted in his overthrow and the invasion by the U.S. of Grenada on October 25, 1983, with about 277 people dying. (1,2) It was fallaciously charged that an airport was being built in Grenada that could be used to attack the U.S. and it was also erroneously claimed that the lives of American medical students on that island were in danger.

Guatemala

In 1951 Jacobo Arbenz was elected president of Guatemala. He appropriated some unused land operated by the United Fruit Company and compensated the company. (1,2) That company then started a campaign to paint Arbenz as a tool of an international conspiracy and hired about 300 mercenaries who sabotaged oil supplies and trains. (3) In 1954 a CIA-orchestrated coup put him out of office and he left the country. During the next 40 years various regimes killed thousands of people.

In 1999 the Washington Post reported that an Historical Clarification Commission concluded that over 200,000 people had been killed during the civil war and that there had been 42,000 individual human rights violations, 29,000 of them fatal, 92% of which were committed by the army. The commission further reported that the U.S. government and the CIA had pressured the Guatemalan government into suppressing the guerilla movement by ruthless means. (4,5)

According to the Commission between 1981 and 1983 the military government of Guatemala – financed and supported by the U.S. government – destroyed some four hundred Mayan villages in a campaign of genocide. (4)
One of the documents made available to the commission was a 1966 memo from a U.S. State Department official, which described how a “safe house” was set up in the palace for use by Guatemalan security agents and their U.S. contacts. This was the headquarters for the Guatemalan “dirty war” against leftist insurgents and suspected allies. (2)


Thats just a few I picked out without even looking for the worst examples. The list just goes on and on.

 

[Rod1]

Dude, China was a massive shithole before the CCP was even a glimmer in Maos eyes. Rod, no offense but you don't understand the history if you think that.

Why focus on such narrow timeline of events? Yes, things were bad, but nowhere near as bad as it was until the day of Mao's death.

They do business with corrupt nations but generally speaking they don't meddle with their internal politics. Same can't be said for the US.

BS, if you are bribing people inside a country you are already meddling with their internal politics. As i said, claiming that only westerners hate China the hatred towards mainland Chinese is almost universal.

 

[Rod1]

https://www.globalresearch.ca/us-ha...-37-victim-nations-since-world-war-ii/5492051

Suprised you're not aware of this. The list is too long to write out, most of its on the link, but heres just a few tidbits:

Chile


The CIA intervened in Chile’s 1958 and 1964 elections. In 1970 a socialist candidate, Salvador Allende, was elected president. The CIA wanted to incite a military coup to prevent his inauguration, but the Chilean army’s chief of staff, General Rene Schneider, opposed this action. The CIA then planned, along with some people in the Chilean military, to assassinate Schneider. This plot failed and Allende took office. President Nixon was not to be dissuaded and he ordered the CIA to create a coup climate: “Make the economy scream,” he said.


What followed were guerilla warfare, arson, bombing, sabotage and terror. ITT and other U.S. corporations with Chilean holdings sponsored demonstrations and strikes. Finally, on September 11, 1973 Allende died either by suicide or by assassination. At that time Henry Kissinger, U.S. Secretary of State, said the following regarding Chile: “I don’t see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist because of the irresponsibility of its own people.” (1)


During 17 years of terror under Allende’s successor, General Augusto Pinochet, an estimated 3,000 Chileans were killed and many others were tortured or “disappeared.” (2,3,4,5)


Also see South America: Operation Condor

Colombia

One estimate is that 67,000 deaths have occurred from the 1960s to recent years due to support by the U.S. of Colombian state terrorism. (1)

According to a 1994 Amnesty International report, more than 20,000 people were killed for political reasons in Colombia since 1986, mainly by the military and its paramilitary allies. Amnesty alleged that “U.S.- supplied military equipment, ostensibly delivered for use against narcotics traffickers, was being used by the Colombian military to commit abuses in the name of “counter-insurgency.” (2) In 2002 another estimate was made that 3,500 people die each year in a U.S. funded civilian war in Colombia. (3)

In 1996 Human Rights Watch issued a report “Assassination Squads in Colombia” which revealed that CIA agents went to Colombia in 1991 to help the military to train undercover agents in anti-subversive activity. (4,5)

In recent years the U.S. government has provided assistance under Plan Colombia. The Colombian government has been charged with using most of the funds for destruction of crops and support of the paramilitary group.

El Salvador

The civil war from 1981 to1992 in El Salvador was financed by $6 billion in U.S. aid given to support the government in its efforts to crush a movement to bring social justice to the people in that nation of about 8 million people. (1)
During that time U.S. military advisers demonstrated methods of torture on teenage prisoners, according to an interview with a deserter from the Salvadoran army published in the New York Times. This former member of the Salvadoran National Guard testified that he was a member of a squad of twelve who found people who they were told were guerillas and tortured them. Part of the training he received was in torture at a U.S. location somewhere in Panama. (2)

About 900 villagers were massacred in the village of El Mozote in 1981. Ten of the twelve El Salvadoran government soldiers cited as participating in this act were graduates of the School of the Americas operated by the U.S. (2) They were only a small part of about 75,000 people killed during that civil war. (1)

According to a 1993 United Nations’ Truth Commission report, over 96 % of the human rights violations carried out during the war were committed by the Salvadoran army or the paramilitary deaths squads associated with the Salvadoran army. (3)

That commission linked graduates of the School of the Americas to many notorious killings. The New York Times and the Washington Post followed with scathing articles. In 1996, the White House Oversight Board issued a report that supported many of the charges against that school made by Rev. Roy Bourgeois, head of the School of the Americas Watch. That same year the Pentagon released formerly classified reports indicating that graduates were trained in killing, extortion, and physical abuse for interrogations, false imprisonment and other methods of control. (4)

Grenada

The CIA began to destabilize Grenada in 1979 after Maurice Bishop became president, partially because he refused to join the quarantine of Cuba. The campaign against him resulted in his overthrow and the invasion by the U.S. of Grenada on October 25, 1983, with about 277 people dying. (1,2) It was fallaciously charged that an airport was being built in Grenada that could be used to attack the U.S. and it was also erroneously claimed that the lives of American medical students on that island were in danger.

Guatemala

In 1951 Jacobo Arbenz was elected president of Guatemala. He appropriated some unused land operated by the United Fruit Company and compensated the company. (1,2) That company then started a campaign to paint Arbenz as a tool of an international conspiracy and hired about 300 mercenaries who sabotaged oil supplies and trains. (3) In 1954 a CIA-orchestrated coup put him out of office and he left the country. During the next 40 years various regimes killed thousands of people.

In 1999 the Washington Post reported that an Historical Clarification Commission concluded that over 200,000 people had been killed during the civil war and that there had been 42,000 individual human rights violations, 29,000 of them fatal, 92% of which were committed by the army. The commission further reported that the U.S. government and the CIA had pressured the Guatemalan government into suppressing the guerilla movement by ruthless means. (4,5)

According to the Commission between 1981 and 1983 the military government of Guatemala – financed and supported by the U.S. government – destroyed some four hundred Mayan villages in a campaign of genocide. (4)
One of the documents made available to the commission was a 1966 memo from a U.S. State Department official, which described how a “safe house” was set up in the palace for use by Guatemalan security agents and their U.S. contacts. This was the headquarters for the Guatemalan “dirty war” against leftist insurgents and suspected allies. (2)


Thats just a few I picked out without even looking for the worst examples. The list just goes on and on.

Surprised you dont realize that the USA got and gets its fair amount of hate among Latin Americans for such antics.

The issue is that those that rode the "anti-gringo" wave were communist assholes and after a few decades of failures people realize they are even worse.

 

[Black Helicopters]

Lol you know nothing about the history of China. Chinas central government was disbanded in the 1900s, occupied by Japan and fought a brutal civil war and went through severe droughts which caused mass starvation. This all happened only in the last century.

The CCP didn't cause the poverty, once again you show your ignorance, China has been a dirt poor nation since colonization by western powers and the dismantlement of their central government. It was basically a nation run by warlords for 60 years. The civil war only ended in the 1950s and it took only 30 to bring it from a wasteland to an emerging power.

China is not SK or Taiwan, China had very little foreign investment and was basically shut out of international trade. SK/Taiwan don't have the demographic issues as China, they are relatively small nations, easier to control and mobilize with an ethnically homogenous population.

Chinas success came from developing their manufacturing base, you can't just open up your markets without being able to build efficiently. Give some fucking credit at least where its due. I don't expect much from a brainwashed westerner like yourself though.

I know more about Chinese history than you credit me. I know that they were dirt poor for centuries but the Chinese people suffered immensely under Communist rule and hardly made any effort during communist rule, still being very poor by the time of Mao’s death.

CCP directly caused poverty and starvation by collectivization and they never got ahead until the reforms after Mao's death. The Chinese could have skipped a generation of immense poverty and suffering if not for the CCP.

Speaking of not knowing about the history of China, why don't you tell me what the Communists were doing when Japan was raping China? Fuck the CCP.

Why the fuck should we give CCP credit for every little thing it's done when it's overshadowed by the terrible things?

Should we be praising Hitler and Stalin now? They did some great things. Some bad, yeah, but give credit where it's due.

 

[TemujinKhan]

I know more about Chinese history than you credit me. I know that they were dirt poor for centuries but the Chinese people suffered immensely under Communist rule and hardly made any effort during communist rule, still being very poor by the time of Mao’s death.

CCP directly caused poverty and starvation by collectivization and they never got ahead until the reforms after Mao's death. The Chinese could have skipped a generation of immense poverty and suffering if not for the CCP.

Speaking of not knowing about the history of China, why don't you tell me what the Communists were doing when Japan was raping China? Fuck the CCP.

Why the fuck should we give CCP credit for every little thing it's done when it's overshadowed by the terrible things?

Should we be praising Hitler and Stalin now? They did some great things. Some bad, yeah, but give credit where it's due.

Lol once again you show that you know little, the CCP were not in power when Japan was raping China. Chiangs nationalists had more power, more international backing and better weapons and military then the communists yet they were trounced by the Japanese. While the Communists who at the time were a rag tag army of farmers and resistance fighters were actually far more effective resistance against the Japanese than the American backed nationalists. Chiang lost to Mao 3 times despite having every conceivable advantage.

After Japanese occupation the nationalists and communists fought a civil war which resulted in a resounding victory for Mao. The communists took power in the 50s, when was WW2? It wasn't the 50s I'll tell you that much. See you don't even have a clue as to the timeline of events yet you claim to know thieir history.

 

[Black Helicopters]

Lol once again you show that you know little, the CCP were not in power when Japan was raping China. Chiangs nationalists had more power, more international backing and better weapons and military then the communists yet they were trounced by the Japanese. While the Communists who at the time were a rag tag army of farmers and resistance fighters were actually far more effective resistance against the Japanese than the American backed nationalists. Chiang lost to Mao 3 times despite having every conceivable advantage.

After Japanese occupation the nationalists and communists fought a civil war which resulted in a resounding victory for Mao. The communists took power in the 50s, when was WW2? It wasn't the 50s I'll tell you that much. See you don't even have a clue as to the timeline of events yet you claim to know thieir history.

My point was that the communists are fucking bottom feeders that did nothing in WWII and won a defeated China (While pretending today that they had anything relevant to contribute to WWII) They sucked then and they suck now. Fuck em and fuck you.

 

[Rod1]

Lol once again you show that you know little, the CCP were not in power when Japan was raping China. Chiangs nationalists had more power, more international backing and better weapons and military then the communists yet they were trounced by the Japanese. While the Communists who at the time were a rag tag army of farmers and resistance fighters were actually far more effective resistance against the Japanese than the American backed nationalists. Chiang lost to Mao 3 times despite having every conceivable advantage.

After Japanese occupation the nationalists and communists fought a civil war which resulted in a resounding victory for Mao. The communists took power in the 50s, when was WW2? It wasn't the 50s I'll tell you that much. See you don't even have a clue as to the timeline of events yet you claim to know thieir history.

They were also more effective than the Japanese at killing Chinese people.