There appears to be several camps in Carlson Gracie lineage: 1) Those who formally are listed ...

[lechien]

Namedropping is lame when you're an affiliate that has barely ever trained with/under the association head, even lamer if you've never even met them.

Can you really call it name dropping when you trained from white belt to black belt under an instructor, got booted out of his association and started your own afterwards? In the case of Liberia/Busta/ATT etc, and all direct BB from Carlson, its hardly name dropping

Also, I have nothing against Carlson Jr. but I could see fully well why someone would affiliate with ATT/BTT over Calrson Jr.

ATT/BTT is the bigger name recognition with more famous fighters attached to the brand. Whereas Carlson Jr., only has his name and hasn't had much in the way of competitive achievement nor has he produced much high level talent

Those dudes are busy selling their own brand name. Lol.

 

[Shaolin Bushido]

I'm from Chicago, which is Carlson Gracie territory (the head quarters is here), MOST of the Chicago BJJ schools have some type of lineage that can be traced back to Carlson, and it is still very dramatic, this is the main reason why I am not in BJJ. With that said I respect the art, I just hate the drama.

I've seen how soomething seemingly trivial can sometimes prevent them from coming together for something that is plainly in both parties best interests. Grudges are held by people who are in every other aspect, smart and savvy leaders.

I just re-read your post and it is weird .. here in Charlotte, MOST of the teams here have instructors who trained initially with a black belt here named Paulo Mushu Elsimaani who is now affiliated with CheckMat. As a youngster he competed against and is friends now with many Carlson Gracie bb' today as a result. Even if they're longtime Royce Gracie, Pedro Sauer, Humaita or whatever, most in this area have roots that began with Paulo.(Great guy btw). Only thing is he failed to organize so of course these students sought out more organized "established" structure and teams. Paulo may have had other reasons for not doing that that I'm not aware of but if he had an eye towards it back then he'd have an army of his own by now. What he had was a family, a wife and kids so he worked full time eleswhere instead of making the commitment to teach Jiu Jitsu fulltime. He IS a great teacher though and I've seen guys with bigger reputations not only deal with him as an equal but even defer to him as they discussed techniques, tactics, etc ...

He and Carlson are buddies from their days coming up in Jiu Jitsu. Paulo is a small guy and knows many of the smaller guys in stature from competing with them back in the day. He sorta trained and helped teach under several guys who had orgs over the years when he first came to the US who had designs on establishing their teams in Charlotte. Frequently, as he travels to compete or support one of his students he goes to Chicago and pals around with Carlson and when Carlson comes here they are fast friends. As nice as Paulo is and you'd be hard pressed to find a nicer guy .. still, the drama persists though in some cases it didn't originate with him. It's weird but I think people have tried exploiting him and when he discovered it he cut em off. HE doesn't go around doing all the talking .. it seems the "other" parties over the years by way of bein butthurt, started and kept it going.

 

[Shaolin Bushido]

Namedropping is lame when you're an affiliate that has barely ever trained with/under the association head, even lamer if you've never even met them.

Can you really call it name dropping when you trained from white belt to black belt under an instructor, got booted out of his association and started your own afterwards? In the case of Liberia/Busta/ATT etc, and all direct BB from Carlson, its hardly name dropping

Also, I have nothing against Carlson Jr. but I could see fully well why someone would affiliate with ATT/BTT over Calrson Jr.

ATT/BTT is the bigger name recognition with more famous fighters attached to the brand. Whereas Carlson Jr., only has his name and hasn't had much in the way of competitive achievement nor has he produced much high level talent

.. but .. Carlson Jr came up with all those famous jitz and mma guys and irregardless of his name he obviously has the skills to back it up. He had the best teacher(s) and I don't get the impression his dad showed him any favoritism on the mat. Probably just the opposite, most likely. I get what you're saying and many have probably made the mistake of guaging his ability based on appearance and suffered as a result. I've met him several times and he is very jovial and friendly, more like his dad in that respect. Carlson is not a big proponent of MMA anymore after the way things played out and focussing on them takes disproportionate amounts of time from building a strong, large Jiu Jitsu team. The perception is that if successful they turn into demanding prima donnas and no one wants to deal with that given a choice. Hell .. I see that several teams known moreso for their MMA teams have realized the same and are diversifying.

 

[Daniel Fox]

Well. I teach Bjj program in a judo club.

No longer affiliated to any big name.

My students can train and attend any seminars they choose to.

Anyone that pays fees at another Bjj gyms is welcome to attend our classes as long as they are willing to follow ibjjf rules.

I am getting my degrees and the rest of the blah blah from ibjjf.

Problem solved.

This is the way it should be.

 

[Shaolin Bushido]

Anyone that pays fees at another Bjj gyms is welcome to attend our classes as long as they are willing to follow ibjjf rules.

Wow. Ever had problems with deadbeats lookin to train for free who lie about being students elsewhere?

 

[davou]

Anyone wanna fill me in on the story about btt forming? I feel like I'm missing out

 

[Shaolin Bushido]

Anyone wanna fill me in on the story about btt forming? I feel like I'm missing out

You have Montreal listed as your location. I also see that you have posted alot on other jiu jitsu forums and quite knowledgeably. If you have something to contribute I wish you would. No one has intentionally slighted BTT. Murilo Bustamante is my favorite of all Carlson's students therefore I wish nothing but the best for him and BTT.

 

[davou]

You have Montreal listed as your location. I also see that you have posted alot on other jiu jitsu forums and quite knowledgeably. If you have something to contribute I wish you would. No one has intentionally slighted BTT. Murilo Bustamante is my favorite of all Carlson's students therefore I wish nothing but the best for him and BTT.

Hey, im not slighted in the least; I just want to know what the story is.

FWIW Im not affiliated with BTT.

 

[Shaolin Bushido]

Hey, im not slighted in the least; I just want to know what the story is.

FWIW Im not affiliated with BTT.

.. and don't know how BTT was born? Basically, during the time that jiu jitsu burst on the scene Carlson Gracie Team had some of the best and most successful guys in MMA. One in particular enjoyed more noteriety at one point in time and that was Vitor Belfort. Several of the other leaders on the team voiced displeasure that GM seemed to be neglecting them in favor of him and was not avaiable to them back in Brasil and elsewhere around the world in their fights. Depending on whom you talk to they were either dismissed from the team or left. They named their team, Brazilian Top Team. BTT Canada is headquartered in Montreal under Fabio Holanda.

 

[davou]

.. and don't know how BTT was born?

Is that such a stretch? That someone not affiliated with a team wouldnt know the rumors around that teams forming? You're the one who started with ;

.We all know of the schism where BTT was formed and much of it was action and reaction, misunderstanding and emotion.

I just don't know the drama and you made it sound interesting, why get indignant when I ask?

 

[Shaolin Bushido]

Is that such a stretch? That someone not affiliated with a team wouldnt know the rumors around that teams forming? You're the one who started with ;



I just don't know the drama and you made it sound interesting, why get indignant when I ask?

Honestly .. I thought you were lying. I've moved on because it doesn't really matter. They have a neat lil feature here now and if I believed you were a troll I'd use it. Nothing personal . I'm just trying to get at sincere contributions and genuine questions. Apologies and all that.

The events of the late 90's and early 2K were momentous and interesting especially if you're a jiu jitsu fan. There's tons of threads here that describe it blow by blow. Probably archived by now.

 

[lechien]

Wow. Ever had problems with deadbeats lookin to train for free who lie about being students elsewhere?

No so far.

. But I can easily contact their gym and confirm if they are still paying their dues.

Our Bjj community is really small with maybe 4-5 teams and I know all of them since the past 14 years.


But we are talking about someone dropping by once in awhile.

Currently I have a waiting list for January 2018

 

[davou]

View attachment 286187 Just .. unnecessary.

What? Are you some kind of troll? I asked a question here, and you not only did you get snarky about the reply, you stalked me online and pulled a quote out of context from another conversation?

Even if that wasn't creepy and inappropriate, who cares? I told that person not to believe what he reads (whether its good or bad) and invited him to come to my school because yes, I'd certainly like to have more team mates and he was in my city shopping for a place to train.

What the hell is wrong with you?

 

[Quebec Nick]

God those brazillians love their soap operas, it's almost at GoT level.

Personnally, being from a more remote location, I'm a lot more interested to see what's available in my area than trying to know wich affiliation is the best in the historic and noble lineage of the Gracie family.

Maybe if I was living in town where every affiliations are available, I would have the luxury to be picky about it.

But a lot of people just want to train, and it's way easier to train near home. When I chose my school, I got sure to be okay with the schedule, if I liked the instructor and how the classes are run, if I'm confortable with the people training there. Afterwards I started to research a little about the affiliation, but at was more out of curiousity than anything.

The only thing I get from being in an affiliation is that we have access to training camps and seminars with Nova Uniao Canada. We rarely ear about what's going on in brasil, I know that Wendell Alexander drop by from time to time and that my instructor is always in contact with Wagney Fabiano.

But if my school was a BTT, GF, GB, evolution, Gracie or anything else I would still go there. I don't really care about any feud that happened in brasil 20 years ago.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Who cares who likes or pays each other? If your instructor,instructor's instructor, instructor's instructor's instructor, or instructor's instructor's instructor's instructor got his BB from Carlson, then you are under Carlson Gracie lineage.
Lineage is more a marketing tool anyway.

It can be, but certain lineages still carry a lot of meaning. You're a Cesar guy, right? Cesar's known for being a tough promoter and trains a lot of fighters, so if someone is a higher colored belt under him I assume that person is pretty good and also can make their BJJ work in a fight. Might not be right 100% of the time, but it's a good piece of info to have. I definitely take someone more seriously if they're a purple belt from Atos HQ vs. Joe Blow's House of JuJitsu.

 

[JustTheTip]

It can be, but certain lineages still carry a lot of meaning. You're a Cesar guy, right? Cesar's known for being a tough promoter and trains a lot of fighters, so if someone is a higher colored belt under him I assume that person is pretty good and also can make their BJJ work in a fight. Might not be right 100% of the time, but it's a good piece of info to have. I definitely take someone more seriously if they're a purple belt from Atos HQ vs. Joe Blow's House of JuJitsu.

That is different because you are talking about situations where a guy got his belt directly from that person. Would you have increased expectations of a guy that got his belt from a guy who got his belt from a guy who got his belt from Ceser?

 

[Uchi Mata]

That is different because you are talking about situations where a guy got his belt directly from that person. Would you have increased expectations of a guy that got his belt from a guy who got his belt from a guy who got his belt from Ceser?

Definitely less the farther you got from the source. I suppose I care less about lineage per se than about who trained you. Lineage is just a proxy for that when you don't know who someone is. For example, not many people have ever heard of my coach, Mario Correa. But if I tell you he got his black belt training at Gracie Barra in Rio and that his main teachers were Gordo and Draculino, that gives you some (albeit secondhand) information about how good he probably is, and by extension how good I probably am as one of his senior students. But definitely less info that if you knew I was a Draculino black belt or whatever. Lineage hopefully tells you something about standards and expectations in a given school, and maybe something about likely technical specialties though that's a lot less true now than it used to be.

 

[Thycidides]

Definitely less the farther you got from the source. I suppose I care less about lineage per se than about who trained you. Lineage is just a proxy for that when you don't know who someone is. For example, not many people have ever heard of my coach, Mario Correa. But if I tell you he got his black belt training at Gracie Barra in Rio and that his main teachers were Gordo and Draculino, that gives you some (albeit secondhand) information about how good he probably is, and by extension how good I probably am as one of his senior students. But definitely less info that if you knew I was a Draculino black belt or whatever. Lineage hopefully tells you something about standards and expectations in a given school, and maybe something about likely technical specialties though that's a lot less true now than it used to be.

Are there some lineages do be wary off? Lets say I move to a new city.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Are there some lineages do be wary off? Lets say I move to a new city.

I don't know that I'd say that, there are good and bad coaches from most affiliations. But in general, I've found that anyone affiliated with the bigger teams like Atos, GB, Checkmat, or Alliance are uniformly good (at least, I've never been to a bad one). Ribeiro guys seem good too. The only places I've been that were a little meh were generally under really old school lineages like Humaita or Mansor (Kioto), tended to be more self defense oriented. And personally, I've not been impressed with the 10th Planet schools I've visited. But that's more a matter of personal taste than anything.

 

[Shaolin Bushido]

"I think we should get the whole Carlson Gracie team together and pick a leader...
And then we all fight in the name of one flag all over the world!
We need a leader!
We built an empire of fighters who fight all over the world today, and they're adrift, without a leader...
And those who present themselves as leaders have no legitimacy!
We need a leader in a suit!
Then we can take this flag for another 1000 years...
For me only who has this legitimacy, it is you!
Thank you very much!"

The above quote is a translation of a comment by a black belt in the Carlson Gracie lineage to a very senior black belt of the same. I only list it display sentiments I've read over the years and observations as well. I do not mean to dispute the word of those who've responded in this thread but only to show an example of the motivation that spawned this thread. I am sure discretion is partly responsible for the tight lipped answers and in some cases, the lack of responses. Understood and respected. The old adage holds true ...

"Those who say don't know and those who know won't say". ~ Anon