Trans Pacific Partnership - continuing the conservative assault on working people

[IGIT]

Well, unfortunately, the conversation has kind of been contaminated by partisan politics. Because Trump came out against it, 99% of his supporters were/are now against it by mere virtue of deferring to his stupidity. If not for Trump, if it had been Hillary versus Jeb, the makeup would be much, much different and more similar to support of NAFTA.

On that note, did/do you and @PolishHeadlock support NAFTA in retrospect?

hi Trotsky,

i supported NAFTA when Clinton signed on the dotted line, and i've supported it ever since. its resulted in a net trade surplus for the US, and on a personal note, it probably helped pay for me and my brother's tuition (my father was a chemical engineer and a chunk of his work related to products in the auto supply line).

regarding the bolded, i think you are 100% correct.

Mr. Trump is against the TPP, so his supporters are against it - though they'd be hard pressed to tell you what's in the agreement.

some folks (not Anuung or Viva. i think they're wrong, but i think they're also debating in good faith) reflexively were against it because Mr. Sanders was against it.

i still remember arguments where folks said the TPP would allow US factories to outsource work to China. lol.

still more, there is another group of individuals against the TPP because it had Hillary Clinton's fingerprints all over it. Mrs. Clinton ended up reversing herself on this one - but i had faith that she'd return to the bargaining table once she gained the White House.

alas...

- IGIT

 

[IGIT]

Besides it NOT being a Free Trade deal with volumes and volumes containing thousands of pages, it also allows the currency manipulation to continue. If we went into all the "side letters" or exceptions we could be here all day. How about a single sheet of paper that says... FREE FUCKING TRADE. Nope? Why not?

hiya Whippy,

currency manipulation?

i knew it. you have no idea what you're talking about.

i gotta go, Whippy. have a good one.

- IGIT

 

[Trotsky]

Yes

 

[Rod1]

Besides it NOT being a Free Trade deal with volumes and volumes containing thousands of pages, it also allows the currency manipulation to continue. If we went into all the "side letters" or exceptions we could be here all day. How about a single sheet of paper that says... FREE FUCKING TRADE. Nope? Why not?

Most of these countries have free floating currencies, so how exactly are they "manipulating their currency" outside of having a central bank?

 

[Mondo Freaks]

trade deals are never gonna be equal, especially when it comes to labor. Companies will always use cheap labor if they can.

When it comes to raw materials and commodities, then we can trade a little more fairly, but still it wont be completely equal, since one country has something that the other country wants.

Its a tough one. I believe in free trade with minimal regulations. Let the consumer decide the fate of the companies. If its a shit product, no matter how low the price is, people wont buy it. Adding tariffs and taxes to imports seems artificial.

Let Pepsi buy their aluminum from Canada. Why should anyone but their BOD and shareholders be told how to run their company?

 

[Whippy McGee]

hiya Whippy,

currency manipulation?

i knew it. you have no idea what you're talking about.

i gotta go, Whippy. have a good one.

- IGIT

I knew you had no refutation.... move along... and have a good one.

 

[Rod1]

I knew you had no refutation.... move along... and have a good one.

So which country of the TPP is using currency manipulation and how?

 

[Anung Un Rama]

heya Anung Un Rama my old friend,

https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/bjals.2016.5.issue-2/bjals-2016-0018/bjals-2016-0018.xml

http://www.iisd.org/sites/default/files/publications/india-standards-regulations-ttp-agreement.pdf

you can read them both, it'll take a little time. in the first piece go to the section titled "The Trans Pacific Trade Partnership and Harmonization of Standards". in the second article, the relevant passage is in section 1.2, under "Standards, Regulations". its not too technical and pretty common sensical.

does any of this really matter, though?

you'd be against the TPP anyway. you know this. i know this. lol.

i think disengaging with the rest of the planet on things like trade and environmental agreements is a strange thing to support. you and i have had this discussion many times in the past, and i know you're pretty set in your view of things.

the world is going to go on, with or without the United States.

Japan has taken the lead in the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership. Canada has a higher profile with the US exit and is pushing for concessions on certain points. other nations are either now negotiating with China or forming their own trade alliances to protect themselves from China.

we just see things differently on this one, Anuung.

- IGIT

Good Afternoon IGIT,

Its nice to have you back. The WR could benefit greatly from your less ideology driven povs and conversational tone/style.

Tbc, that query to @Rod1 regarding logistics costs and regulations was out of curiosity and not meant to be argumentative.
I didn't expect for my mind to be changed, only to learn something. Thank you for the links, I haven't opened them yet. I'll need more focus to tackle what is presumably a daunting task than I'm able to muster at the moment.

Now, if you'll recall from our conversations, my opposition to the TPP was never about engaging or disengaging with the rest of the world. I'm not anti-trade (never was) and I've never suggested the world would stop spinning without the US driving an agenda.

I'm glad you brought up China's deals. If you recall one of the two reasons for the TPP was supposed to be so critical was to marginalize China (the other was that it was going to be so amazing for America's economy, even though the most optimistic forecasts didn't support such hyperbole). Meanwhile, China is conducting their own trade deals (they were working on their own TPP prior to the US opting out). The TPP wouldn't have prevented this.

I think this deal makes more sense for the current TPP countries without America.

Yours always,

Anung with 1 u.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

hi Trotsky,

i supported NAFTA when Clinton signed on the dotted line, and i've supported it ever since. its resulted in a net trade surplus for the US, and on a personal note, it probably helped pay for me and my brother's tuition (my father was a chemical engineer and a chunk of his work related to products in the auto supply line).

regarding the bolded, i think you are 100% correct.

Mr. Trump is against the TPP, so his supporters are against it - though they'd be hard pressed to tell you what's in the agreement.

some folks (not Anuung or Viva. i think they're wrong, but i think they're also debating in good faith) reflexively were against it because Mr. Sanders was against it.

i still remember arguments where folks said the TPP would allow US factories to outsource work to China. lol.

still more, there is another group of individuals against the TPP because it had Hillary Clinton's fingerprints all over it. Mrs. Clinton ended up reversing herself on this one - but i had faith that she'd return to the bargaining table once she gained the White House.

alas...

- IGIT

IGGY,

Good post. My opposition to TPP was independent of Bernie's. We just happen to share the same values on most things.

Best,
AUR

 

[IGIT]

So which country of the TPP is using currency manipulation and how?

ahoy Rod1,

he wanted to say, "China", googled just to make sure...and is now probably thinking something along the lines of "oops".

- IGIT

 

[SaiWa]

I knew you had no refutation.... move along... and have a good one.

currency manipulation means China. You had no idea China wasn't involved in TPP???..

HAHAHA!! you fuckin' tard...

 

[Rod1]

ahoy Rod1,

he wanted to say, "China", googled just to make sure...and is now probably thinking something along the lines of "oops".

- IGIT

I went through all the currencies of TPP signataries and i found that Vietnamese Dong is not currently floating.

I guess Trump is still afraid of going into war with Vietnam after so many decades.

 

[IGIT]

currency manipulation means China. You had no idea China wasn't involved in TPP???..

HAHAHA!! you fuckin' tard...

hi there SaiWa,

lol.

i'd have put it differently, but yes.

the thing is, Whippy isn't an outlier, and that's a bummer. he can be against the TPP (i'd think he'd be wrong, but that's besides the point); the problem here is more elemental - he doesn't know what it is - but he's dead set against it (its so many pages!!!).

that's sad. its also sort of funny since this is the War Room. but mostly, i find that kind of steadfast ignorance alarming.

its like, you know...why be that way?

- IGIT

 

[SaiWa]

hi there SaiWa,

lol.

i'd have put it differently, but yes.

the thing is, Whippy isn't an outlier, and that's a bummer. he can be against the TPP (i'd think he'd be wrong, but that's besides the point); the problem here is more elemental - he doesn't know what it is - but he's dead set against it (its so many pages!!!).

that's sad. its also sort of funny since this is the War Room. but mostly, i find that kind of steadfast ignorance alarming.

its like, you know...why be that way?

- IGIT

I concur. it is sad because there are many of them out there.

I believe one of the main reasons for TPP was to created a trading alliance that would decrease each nation's overall reliance on China for trading. But hey people like @Whippy McGee don't know or care to know and just reply "down with currency manipulation!!!".

I like your style homey. keep it up!

 

[IGIT]

ahoy Mr. SaiWa,

I concur. it is sad because there are many of them out there.

ayup. for every Whippy McGee here, there are several million of them out there. a harrowing reality.

I believe one of the main reasons for TPP was to created a trading alliance that would decrease each nation's overall reliance on China for trading. But hey people like @Whippy McGee don't know or care to know and just reply "down with currency manipulation!!!".

i saw the TPP as something that would grease the wheels of trade, incrementally - and i saw it as the US using soft power geopolitically against China's ascent. that's it. nothing sinister.

I like your style homey. keep it up!

*high fives*

- IGIT

 

[Anung Un Rama]

currency manipulation means China. You had no idea China wasn't involved in TPP???..

HAHAHA!! you fuckin' tard...

China may have made the biggest waves, but they don't own the practice of currency manipulation. Japan, for instance, is one of the bigger culprits.

 

[Rod1]

China may have made the biggest waves, but they don't own the practice of currency manipulation. Japan, for instance, was one of the bigger culprits.

FTFY

 

[SaiWa]

China may have made the biggest waves, but they don't own the practice of currency manipulation. Japan, for instance, WAS one of the bigger culprits.

@Rod1. you must embolden the fix just in case Anung doesn't see it...

Anyway none of the current TPP members do it at the moment...

 

[Anung Un Rama]

@Rod1. you must embolden the fix just in case Anung doesn't see it...

Anyway none of the current TPP members do it at the moment...

I saw it...

And sure none are doing it NOW. There is nothing in place to prevent current or future trading partners from starting back up.
The only reason China stopped was because they had to stop the bleeding from all the private investment outside of China. There is no mechanism to prevent them from doing it again and there was no mechanism built into the TPP. Its a legit concern.

 

[Rod1]

I saw it...

And sure none are doing it NOW. There is nothing in place to prevent current or future trading partners from starting back up.
The only reason China stopped was because they had to stop the bleeding from all the private investment outside of China. There is no mechanism to prevent them from doing it again and there was no mechanism built into the TPP. Its a legit concern.

I think their citizens not wanting to lose purchasing power tends to be reason enough, this of course applies mainly to democracies (the vast majority of TPP countries). But even non-democracies dont like the increased social unrest when the purchasing power of their populace goes down the drain.