VIDEO: Ryan Hall v Hermes Franca

lechien said:
Tall poppy syndrome (TPS) is a pejorative term used in the UK, Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand to describe a social phenomenon in which people of genuine merit are resented, attacked, cut down, or criticised because their talents or achievements elevate them above or distinguish them from their peers.
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Interesting. Never heard of that term. I'm gonna look into that, because I actually have to write a paper on a similar subject.

In the instances of people hating on elite grapplers, MMA fighters, questioning belt promotions, etc. I like to use the following term.....




envy. :icon_chee
 
I guess I understand if someone wants to have a butt scooting game go for it. But Hermes shouldn't have been forced to enter into his guard. That way if someone wants to engage in your guard they can by choice but if they want to make you work to pull guard you have to. No doubt that Ryan is more talented than Hermes but it kind of soils his victory when its contested under rules where Hermes is forced to play his game.
 
SprawlanStall said:
Hermes shouldn't have been forced to enter into his guard. .
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I thought that was weird also. I usually see the ref signal the downed person to stand up. What's the ibjjf rule regarding this? Anyone know?
 
SprawlanStall said:
No doubt that Ryan is more talented than Hermes but it kind of soils his victory when its contested under rules where Hermes is forced to play his game.
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Uh, it's a grappling tournament, dude. They grapple and see who wins. Everyone has to "play the game." What's he supposed to do? Get up and throw punches? Do you get pissed when Floyd Mayweather is ignoring that he could be double legged in his fights?

I think a lot of people are forgetting that Hermes is a good black belt and outweighs Ryan by over 30 lbs. He's not some ham 'n egger who you can just walk in and throw around with no effort.
 
platfox said:
I thought that was weird also. I usually see the ref signal the downed person to stand up. What's the ibjjf rule regarding this? Anyone know?
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I'd like to know as well.

The sitting fighter should be made to stand, not the other way around, IMO
 
platfox said:
What's the ibjjf rule regarding this? Anyone know?
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In an IBJJF rules tournament (which this wasn't) the standing fighter has to engage a downed opponent. However, you're also not allowed to pull guard without a grip (though it can be a pretty crap one, a lot of people just hold the sleeve end for a second and sit down).
 
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SprawlanStall said:
I guess I understand if someone wants to have a butt scooting game go for it. But Hermes shouldn't have been forced to enter into his guard. That way if someone wants to engage in your guard they can by choice but if they want to make you work to pull guard you have to. No doubt that Ryan is more talented than Hermes but it kind of soils his victory when its contested under rules where Hermes is forced to play his game.
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he is not forced to enter ryan's guard, he was forced to engage ryan while ryan was on the ground.
 
PointyShinyBurn said:
In an IBJJF rules tournament (which this wasn't) the standing fighter has to engage a downed opponent. However, you're also not allowed to pull guard without a grip (though it can be a pretty crap one, a lot of people just hold the sleeve end for a second and sit down).
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This is pretty much a perfect answer. You have to have some kind of grip or contact before sitting down in IBJJF rules. Obviously not everyone just sits down, and some aggressively pull guard, but there are some sit downs at IBJJF.
 
Doh! said:
Uh, it's a grappling tournament, dude. They grapple and see who wins. Everyone has to "play the game." What's he supposed to do? Get up and throw punches? Do you get pissed when Floyd Mayweather is ignoring that he could be double legged in his fights?

I think a lot of people are forgetting that Hermes is a good black belt and outweighs Ryan by over 30 lbs. He's not some ham 'n egger who you can just walk in and throw around with no effort.
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I didn't say "play the game" I said "play his game," in other words Hall didn't have to worry about Franca getting a dominant position from a takedown he simply sat down.

I think its a weird rule to be able to just sit down but I guess it saves matches from being determined by a takedown followed by stalling.
 
SprawlanStall said:
I guess I understand if someone wants to have a butt scooting game go for it. But Hermes shouldn't have been forced to enter into his guard. That way if someone wants to engage in your guard they can by choice but if they want to make you work to pull guard you have to. No doubt that Ryan is more talented than Hermes but it kind of soils his victory when its contested under rules where Hermes is forced to play his game.
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I think butt scooting is goofy and goes against the spirit of BJJ, but I still think Hermes should have to engage. I look at it this way, you can't run away from an opponent that is trying to engage. It doesn't matter if he is standing or on his butt. Ryan was moving forward and Hermes was trying to run away. That is stalling.
 
DiscipleOfPog said:
I'm all for pulling guard but I feel you really should have to bring the guy down with you if you're gonna do it. It's almost unfair that Hall just plops down and Hermes is forced to engage him. I agree that you aren't allowed to disengage, as in stand back up once it's already on the mat, but you shouldn't be forced to engage a guard player at the start of a match if he plops down, he should have to jump closed guard or get some solid control and bring you down into his open guard. Or you take 2 points away from the guy who sits on his butt and then make the other guy engage.

Don't most BJJ comps require you to get grips before you pull guard?
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I agree.
 
Drew Foster said:
You do what is appropriate. There are now plenty of videos out there with Ryan passing the guard/taking the back/doing double leg sweeps and finishing with collar chokes, RNCs, Darces, armbars, etc. So because he fights a guy with a strength and size advantage, uses back-takes and goes for leglocks, he's somehow not good?

I don't understand. Everyone used to give him shit for doing so many triangles, when many people would kill to have their triangle game that tight. Everyone said he was a buttscooter and only played inverted guard. Then he did the 50/50 and wrecked people's knees. Then all he does is leglock people. Then he started landing takedowns, passes, collar chokes, Darces, RNCs, top subs, etc, and God forbid he works from the bottom... I guess he's still a buttscoot player...

:icon_neut

People are gonna play what they're gonna play. If you start to focus on a new part of your game, but the old part still works well, what is wrong with doing something that has worked for you in the past? You seriously can't say this wasn't an exciting match, right? So what exactly is the problem? It's not like it made for a boring bout...

It never ceases to amaze me how critical people are of fighters/grapplers that are at the top level of their area. This goes for any other top level black belt besides Ryan, but I would bet the bank that if Ryan told the average, solid player "I am going to tap you with a cross collar or bow-and-arrow choke" he would do it. And you couldn't stop it either. All super-competitive black belts are a special breed.
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I wasn't being critical, but I recall a interview he did where he said he was going to go away from that because it wouldn't work at the highest level. That all I was questioning, so maybe you can take a deep breathe now.
 
Kenny from MD said:
YouTube - Ryan Hall vs Wilson Reis No Gi Superfight USGrappling 2010
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So, I wasn't attacking Ryan, just questioning it since I had read and interview where he said he wasn't going to do that anymore. Everyone is so goddamn touchy these days.

Matter of fact here is the pertinent interview from Lockflow:

M: You kind of made your reputation with the triangle stuff, and that was pretty fancy, and you worked a lot with the inverted guard-

R: I don
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Oooooh snap....!

Hard to argue with his logic, except it looks like the sport is going in the opposite direction right now. Honestly I do really hope he's right... It's time to bring takedowns into the forefront of sub grappling. Or at least have the value placed on it that deserves.
 
RadBoy said:
I wasn't being critical, but I recall a interview he did where he said he was going to go away from that because it wouldn't work at the highest level. That all I was questioning, so maybe you can take a deep breathe now.
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Sorry if some people here seem touchy. There's been a shitstorm of trolling, stupid threads, and attacks on fighters and grapplers here recently.
 
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