War Room Lounge V20: Halloween Awareness: Dispatches Blast Yo Ass from a Pumpkin Patch

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Probably the most unwarranted condescension I've seen from you. But it's a good example of how even very intelligent, rational and well-educated people can have a seemingly impossible blind spot.

Faith is very transparent, easy-to-understand stuff. It's not sophisticated, except in the sense that it's sophistry.

That's pretty funny coming from someone whose condescension is saying that people don't really believe what they claim to believe. I have no problem believing in your lack of faith or that bigots really believe and feel the things they say, without projecting my own thought processes on them.
 
Those are two phenomena with diametrical explanations, though. The former is founded in a level of knowledge and a dependence on reason that is less pronounced in persons of faith. The latter is founded in a complete lack of knowledge and dependence on limited experience rather than reason.

Personally, I have realized the perpetual blind spot that I have in implicitly assuming my own level of knowledge in other people. Like, I know that the average person is a moron and is unfamiliar with basic truths about things like public policy, but I still find myself assuming otherwise when grappling with their opinions. That is, once I know something it's hard for me understand and empathize the perspectives of persons who don't. It's weird and a problem.

No, it's the same inability to accept that other people have vastly different world views.
Although perhaps inexperience plays a role in both.
If you've experienced real faith or spent time with groups of people that have fundamentally different views about the nature of the world, it's not a belief you're likely to have.
 
That's pretty funny coming from someone whose condescension is saying that people don't really believe what they claim to believe. I have no problem believing in your lack of faith or that bigots really believe and feel the things they say, without projecting my own thought processes on them.
Nah, you reflexively compared me to a racial bigot because you were offended. Poor form. I maintain that "faith" and its entire cognitive dissonance/suspension of disbelief loop is practiced intentionally and that its practitioners are consciously virtualizing their beliefs. If it gets examined too closely, it invariably ends with the practitioner pulling a special pleading trick with "faith."
 
@Fawlty Josh Hawley's commercial about how it's the Senate's "responsibility to approve" Supreme Court Justices and how "liberals like Claire McCaskill and Chuck Schumer" have turned it into a circus.

IS HE FUCKING SERIOUS? The Republican Senate refused to hear a nominee for a fucking year.

There is no earthly limit to the shamelessness and hypocrisy of cunt Republicans.
 
Nah, you reflexively compared me to a racial bigot because you were offended. Poor form. I maintain that "faith" and its entire cognitive dissonance/suspension of disbelief loop is practiced intentionally and that its practitioners are consciously virtualizing their beliefs. If it gets examined too closely, it invariably ends with the practitioner pulling a special pleading trick with "faith."

Hardly, I'm not calling you a racist. It's the same thought process. Using your own mental behaviour to characterise others. It's hard to imagine that anyone with experience of vastly different lifestyles and belief systems would conclude they were all faking it, short of a total lack of empathy.
 
@Fawlty Josh Hawley's commercial about how it's the Senate's "responsibility to approve" Supreme Court Justices and how "liberals like Claire McCaskill and Chuck Schumer" have turned it into a circus.

IS HE FUCKING SERIOUS? The Republican Senate refused to hear a nominee for a fucking year.

There is no earthly limit to the shamelessness and hypocrisy of cunt Republicans.
I don't even know what to say. I think relying on selective memory like that works when it's favoring your party. I honestly don't know how that fares with undecided voters though. Has the middle forgotten about Garland? They aren't speaking up about it.

The latest attack ads I've seen are attack McCaskill over some very minor thing having to do with travel expenses, and not even that she acted improperly. Something about her using a certain thing and then voting against it. On the other hand, the attacks on Hawley are for taking $60k from insurance companies. I was like, $60k? Travel expenses? Nice slap fight.

Those are just the ones that pop up on mobile when I'm playing a game.
 
Reverse No True Scotsman. Sophistry. It always comes back to these sorts of errors, the whole rainbow of them.

That was only part of the sentence. Try finishing it.
 
I don't even know what to say. I think relying on selective memory like that works when it's favoring your party. I honestly don't know how that fares with undecided voters though. Has the middle forgotten about Garland? They aren't speaking up about it.

The latest attack ads I've seen are attack McCaskill over some very minor thing having to do with travel expenses, and not even that she acted improperly. Something about her using a certain thing and then voting against it. On the other hand, the attacks on Hawley are for taking $60k from insurance companies. I was like, $60k? Travel expenses? Nice slap fight.

Those are just the ones that pop up on mobile when I'm playing a game.

I literally haven't seen one McCaskill ad or attack ad on Hawley.

I see attack ads on McCaskill every day, usually several.
 
Hardly, I'm not calling you a racist. It's the same thought process. Using your own mental behaviour to characterise others. It's hard to imagine that anyone with experience of vastly different lifestyles and belief systems would conclude they were all faking it, short of a total lack of empathy.
Clearly not "the same thought process." I'm making a reasonable case and concerned with the logic and the thinking involved. I have the empathy to understand how we deceive ourselves. I have superstitions and hiccups in my thought too, and many biases. I know better than to try the "true faith" route though. That's a loser, though it's a cultural winner. Way of the world.
 
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That was only part of the sentence. Try finishing it.
It's still a fallacy dude. We can move on, but I think what's going to happen (as I predicted) is special pleading on faith. That's the "sophisticated" approach anyhow, and it's busted. Nothing new under the Sun God.
 
Clearly not "the same thought process." I'm making a reasonable case and concerned with the logic and the thinking involved. I have the empathy to understand how we deceive ourselves. I have superstitions and hiccups in my thought too, and many biases. I know better than to try the "true faith" route though. That's a loser, though it's a cultural winner. Way of the world.

Sure, but your entire argument that everyone's belief system that isn't yours is a product of deliberate self deception is probably best explained by the fact that you've never had any faith to speak of and are projecting your own thought processes on others.
Is your argument historical? Do you think that all the worlds belief systems have always simply been a process of deliberate self deception? That doesn't really make sense. Where do you draw the boundary between beliefs that are simply wrong, and those that MUST be self deception?
 
It's still a fallacy dude. We can move on, but I think what's going to happen (as I predicted) is special pleading on faith. That's the "sophisticated" approach anyhow, and it's busted. Nothing new under the Sun God.

It's not a fallacy. I was simply saying that it's certainly true that there are people that go through the motions without actually believing, but that doesn't mean no one actually believes.
 
I literally haven't seen one McCaskill ad or attack ad on Hawley.

I see attack ads on McCaskill every day, usually several.

Hawley is a complete Trump bot. I hope he doesn't win this.
 
Sure, but your entire argument that everyone's belief system that isn't yours is a product of deliberate self deception is probably best explained by the fact that you've never had any faith to speak of and are projecting your own thought processes on others.
Is your argument historical? Do you think that all the worlds belief systems have always simply been a process of deliberate self deception? That doesn't really make sense. Where do you draw the boundary between beliefs that are simply wrong, and those that MUST be self deception?
Look, when you (or anybody) tries to tell me that maybe I just don't get "faith" I know that person is putting on the hustle. The nut ain't under none of the cups.

Historically, religious beliefs have retreated from the earliest known cases where the gods were in the sky/sea/darkness/etc as our knowledge has increased. Now our gods hover somewhere just beyond the observable universe, invisible or out of reach or in another dimension, and so on. I believe we have crossed that point where people can claim that their beliefs are rooted. Importantly, the concept of faith explicitly concedes that whenever it's needed to rescue an unsupportable hypothesis. The history of faith reveals the cleverness of the early church lords.

We don't believe that there is a wizard up there, in there, or down there, because there aren't wizards in those places. We can pretend there are, and we do just that. These unrooted concepts are divorced from our experiences and all of the verifiable information available to us. Faith attempts to come to the rescue here, too, where it is more blatantly used as an imaginary bridge. It's both a method of confirmation and the source of its own evidence. Immune to evidence - suspiciously tidy.

The self-deception is found in its abstractness, the virtualization of belief. We suspend our clear and present disbelief, immerse ourselves in faith and/or the spirit or other methods of evoking certain reactions in ourselves (we can even pray a burning into our own hearts), and create our own confirmations. We can seize upon one of the billions of extreme improbabilities we encounter. We can do lots of play-games. However we choose to play, we can then construct a virtual set of facts that we can plainly see are contradicted by reality. And that's of course part of the appeal, as that is something interesting and beyond our experience (it's insidious).

We choose to dwell in these virtual beliefs. The nice thing about them is that we can take off those virtual glasses, or stop running the faith software, and be normal just about anytime we want.
 
I guess, but IDK why you would make that mistake. I mean...have you seen the right wing posters here? Have you seen the comments section on any local news story? Believing in organized religion is hardly the litmus test for basic intelligence that you seem to think it is. There are parts of the world where literally 95+% of citizens are religious, and I assure you that they contain plenty of intelligent people who aren't being knowingly disingenuous to engage in some kind of self-serving moral hypocrisy.

Three comments on this general discussion:

1. I don't understand how anyone who truly believes the Bible is the word of God could have not read it multiple times and tried to memorize it. Yet my observation is that most Christians have not done so.
2. Likewise, if you really believe in eternal life and that your actions in this one determine your condition in that one, temptation would seem to be extremely easy to resist. Yet my observation is that it is not, even for believers (look at posters like DS or Inga, who profess to be devout and yet are deeply immoral).
3. I think a "belief" in *most* circumstances isn't really "something you think is true." Might be more like "something you feel good about affirming and bad about hearing denied." I'm certainly oversimplifying, but not as badly as people who use the definition I gave in the beginning of this point.
 
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