Was Brazilian Jiu Jitsu a mistake? Deconstructing BJJ

[ralek4grammy]

Yeah, Judo throws are awesome. 90% of them you fail and end in turtle position(being smashed and submitted in the process).

Hey, man. With all due respect to a fellow alpha sherdogger: if you, as a Judo practitioner, fail to throw someone that has no idea how to defend against a throw, then, by all means, spawn haymakers and you'll get a better ROI.

(Also, quit training Judo and take up more useful classes, such as underwater basket weaving.)

 

[ralek4grammy]

The "just as skilled in other areas" part is important because judoka generally aren't as good as bjj people on the ground. I'm not saying that as a knock on them, but there are only so many hours in a day, and most of the focus for a judoka is the standing/throwing portion. Maybe it's different in some old school judo schools, but this is the case for places focused on competition.

I think a person would be better off splitting their time between wrestling and bjj than doing judo.

Good point, my friend, but, as I was saying, I was referring about old school Judo. That is 100% BJJ + throws.

These are just things that most didn't bother to look into. As I was hinting, some are shocked that Judo has single-leg takedowns .

 

[Tito Tapped]

MMA scoring dictates that you can't spend any time on your back or it's considered "losing". Submission attempts don't count for enough because they are almost always not as exciting as when fighters are standing and throwing. The game is now all about how fast you can just get back up.

 

[The Chosen]

Picked it up for a few weeks?

UFC 1 was 11th of November 1993, UFC 5 was April 7th 1995. Also Ken wrestled when he was younger, had trained in Japan BEFORE Pancrase (the japanese pro wrestling initiations/training involved real/submission wrestling) and Ken has openly admitted in recent years that he was on the gear.

Thanks for playing though...

So in two years someone with almost no knowledge of BJJ submissions fought a pioneer of the sport to a standstill, and the excuse you have is that he was well versed in other martial arts. Ok then

 

[ralek4grammy]

Many of the subs are identical bro...

I also like the "this is a good'ol wrestling takedown", that you can then find in a black and white video executed by a little guy in a gi.

When we talk about Judo it should be implied it's the old, complete art rather than sport or Olympic Judo. Olympic Judo is a neutered form of a great martial art.

Eric, you're wise beyond your age, man! Proud of ya.

 

[Bend NvR Break]

MMA scoring dictates that you can't spend any time on your back or it's considered "losing". Submission attempts don't count for enough because they are almost always not as exciting as when fighters are standing and throwing. The game is now all about how fast you can just get back up.

I watched Marcin Held lose a fight to Diego Sanchez because Diego was in the top position most of the fight for 2 rounds even though Held attempted at least 20 heel hooks and knee bars from the bottom. He was the more offensive fighter while being off his back but they gave Diego the win.

 

[Bruce Lee666]

Early BJJ or Gracie jiu-jitsu had more throws....only Helios take or branch of BJJ lessen the focus on takedowns as he himself could not do the throws as well as his brothers and family members( sickly child)...but its through Helios philosophy we see the effectiveness of BJJ in that no matter whos doing the takedowns or however the fight gets the floor ...its then Helios techniques begin to take over...he had to be more technical then the rest of family as power or strength moves werent possible for him

BJJ over time has become super specialized... like Boxing...its the boxing of the modern grappling world but its roots are much more free flowing...

Its grandfather martial art Japanese jiujitsu is even more wide open then judo...which only focused in the larger more aggressive movements of jiujitsu to form a sport...where japanese jiujitsu was created for life and death combat...

So no...BJJ was not a mistake...it has its place in modern and historical martial arts

I don't like Helio Gracie philosophy, throws is essential in a real fight BJJ must focus and evolve their throws.

if I use this technique in street on asphalt in a BJJ fighter the fight is over, the guy doesn't Will have a chance to use jiu jitsu.

 

[Paolo Delutis]

I don't like Helio Gracie philosophy, throws is essential in a real fight BJJ must focus and evolve their throws.

if I use this technique in street on asphalt in a BJJ fighter the fight is over, the guy doesn't Will have a chance to use jiu jitsu.

Have you ever tried throwing BJJ guys...they tend to sit on there bums now and days before that can happen...lol

Your speaking to someone who trains in Japanese jiujitsu so im well aware of the down falls or weaknesses within the BJJ system...

That said...every Martial Art has its windows of opportunities ,strengths and weaknesses...

Helios theory grew more then the others because it made BJJ accessible to the casuals...his style works for the majority...in that anyone can learn to properly defend themselves with his system under normal circumstances..

Now if we want to speak about combat..then perhaps following the foot steps of Hoyce or Hickson would better suit you under the BJJ or Gracie family banner...different approaches for different needs..

 

[Blayt7hh]

they already have, pulling guard is statistically a losing strategy in MMA

BJJ doesn’t mean pulling guard. As fun as the if sambo was easy joke is, the reality is that all those successful grapplers in the UFC have spent countless hours learning BJJ. No other art spends nearly as much time or effort learning how to finish people on the ground. You might argue that Bjj as a base isn’t producing the best fighters, that I would probably agree with. But that opens the door to questions much broader than I feel like going into in this thread

 

[fortheo]

I watched Marcin Held lose a fight to Diego Sanchez because Diego was in the top position most of the fight for 2 rounds even though Held attempted at least 20 heel hooks and knee bars from the bottom. He was the now offensive fighter while being off his back but they have Diego the win.

Reminds me of hatsu hioki vs. clay guida. Hioki butchered him from bottom, but the judges gave it to guida

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Mitsuyo Maeda taught the Scottish-Brazilian brothers Carlos and Helio Gracie the art of judo. The evolution of Gracie Jiu Jitsu would take a turn to where throws were not a significant part of the training process because the average martial artist could not deal with the submission threats posed by a Gracie Jiu Jitsu practitioner. Fast forward to the modern day and the speed in which one can put their opponent in vulnerable situations is the most important indicator for success. It is safe to say the knowledge of submissions neutralizes most of the effectiveness of them, so that leaves the affective grapplers not being the ones who necessarily have more mat time, but the ones who have developed the technique and strength to quickly get into dominant positions. The tradition of what we call Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has in many ways taken out a critical part of fighting, and it is evident in the performance of many BJJ players inside MMA competition. Compare the vale tudo of Brazil to the SAMBO that was developed in the Soviet Union, you will notice it is almost a completely different sport even though the rule set is almost identical. MMA as we know it does owe its existence to the Brazilian model, but I don’t believe the school which many Americans inherited is necessarily the best.

Biggest misconception imo.
Since its very early days MMA was tilted towards to wrestling + boxing / GnP model. Not a BJJ model.

 

[carpediem]

So in two years someone with almost no knowledge of BJJ submissions fought a pioneer of the sport to a standstill, and the excuse you have is that he was well versed in other martial arts. Ok then

Bjj isn't the only art with submissions in...

I know the Gracie infomercial was effective but I can't quite believe it was that effective.

People seem stunned when they encounter similar moves in other grappling arts and yet the human body hasn't change much over time. There are only so many way to lock an arm, leg or choke. I'm sure the techniques used in Pankration in the ancient Olympics were similar to what we see in modern MMA.

 

[StoneColdSteveAustin]

I wanna see these guys compete at the ADCC or submission only super fights.


I wanna see Gary Tonon grapple Khabib in submission only.

 

[LoClohs]

Kimura humiliated Brazilian jiu jitsu with his Judo, it's also a Martial art that helps Grapplers a lot, Khabib Judo is beautiful.

Judo guys has badass TDD too :

Judo vs Wrestling :


Judo vs jiu jitsu :

Before this match against Kimura, Helio himself had beaten a Judoka, Kato, I don't remember which Dan Kato was. His brother George, in turn, has only two losses on his record to Judocas, one to the eldest of the Ono brothers, and one by points obtained through throws to Yano. Despite Yano being a representative of Kosen, it seems that he ran away from the ground fight all the time. In turn George has five wins against Judocas, one against the same Yano by leglock, Yano tried the same strategy again but was caught at the very end of the match. One victory against the eldest of the Ono brothers, and three victories in the three fights he had against the youngest of the Ono brothers.

In short, Kimura's victory over Helio changed the score from BJJ 6 - Judo 2, to BJJ 6 - Judo 3. Not even a draw.

The matches between George and Yano. A great instagram profile by the way, lots of interesting things in it. Including the true result of the competition between Fadda and Gracie school. And the truth about the Fadda line.

Regarding Khabib, he trains BJJ, said he thinks it's "perfect" for ground fighting, and in a interview about his school he said that among other arts they will taught BJJ there.

Fight between Renzo and Ben Spijkers, occurred before the fight between Yoshi and Royce, Rickson also had fights against Judokas, including against a student of Kimura Interestingly it seems that both try to use the same technique to take down, some kind of leg trip, and it is Rickson who wins. Like Ben Spijkers, Kimura's student also gives his back on a silver platter.

I also think the Yoshi vs Royce 1 fight wasn't MMA, it looks like there were some weird rules. Grappling maybe? The MMA fight was the second one.

A good fight representing Judo vs Wrestling would be Yoshi vs Gardner, given the importance, both Olympians, and being paid an absurd amount of money by PRIDE.

 

[HHJ]

Before this match against Kimura, Helio himself had beaten a Judoka, Kato, I don't remember which Dan Kato was. His brother George, in turn, has only two losses on his record to Judocas, one to the eldest of the Ono brothers, and one by points obtained through throws to Yano. Despite Yano being a representative of Kosen, it seems that he ran away from the ground fight all the time. In turn George has five wins against Judocas, one against the same Yano by leglock, Yano tried the same strategy again but was caught at the very end of the match. One victory against the eldest of the Ono brothers, and three victories in the three fights he had against the youngest of the Ono brothers.

In short, Kimura's victory over Helio changed the score from BJJ 6 - Judo 2, to BJJ 6 - Judo 3. Not even a draw.

The matches between George and Yano. A great instagram profile by the way, lots of interesting things in it. Including the true result of the competition between Fadda and Gracie school. And the truth about the Fadda line.

Regarding Khabib, he trains BJJ, said he thinks it's "perfect" for ground fighting, and in a interview about his school he said that among other arts they will taught BJJ there.

Fight between Renzo and Ben Spijkers, occurred before the fight between Yoshi and Royce, Rickson also had fights against Judokas, including against a student of Kimura https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EXOVVPLrR4 Interestingly it seems that both try to use the same technique to take down, some kind of leg trip, and it is Rickson who wins. Like Ben Spijkers, Kimura's student also gives his back on a silver platter.

I also think the Yoshi vs Royce 1 fight wasn't MMA, it looks like there were some weird rules. Grappling maybe? The MMA fight was the second one.

A good fight representing Judo vs Wrestling would be Yoshi vs Gardner, given the importance, both Olympians, and being paid an absurd amount of money by PRIDE.

I found Gardner vs Yoshida dissapointing to watch. Gardner was so massive,he simply needed to use rudimentary boxing,and some TDD,and Yoshida could do nothing.

 

[LoClohs]

I found Gardner vs Yoshida dissapointing to watch. Gardner was so massive,he simply needed to use rudimentary boxing,and some TDD,and Yoshida could do nothing.

Gardner is definitely a big boy lol

 

[HHJ]

Gardner is definitely a big boy lol

would have preffered to see a straight grappling match...but even then,Gardner had a good 100 lbs on Yoshida

 

[LoClohs]

Lucky for Royce and his Family that Sakuraba wasn't in the UFC 1, otherwise Catch Wrestling would be more famous than BJJ.

I highly doubt it, after what Saku did CACC didn't become popular. And as far as I know Saku never produced anyone. Not to mention that Saku himself lost to BJJrs. The fight against Arona was horrible btw, he had to be almost killed to them declare him the loser, pathetic. Compare that to Saku's fight against the lighter Royler, who was declared the loser with less than 30 seconds left, and walked straight to his hotel room. Not to mention that the Saku vs Guy Mezger thing just makes the Royler's fight a whole more... suspect. And finally, did Saku even fight at the time?

Anyway CACC had many before Saku, just like Judo had before Kimura and Yoshi. Shamrock in the first UFC, and Anjo in a street fight against Rickson, the promotion for which Anjo was fighting even went into bankruptcy because of the beating that Anjo received, was what inspired PRIDE even, and what explains the interest of the Japanese / CACC guys in defeating Rickson.

As a rule, people just concetrate at the BJJs loses to these 2 styles, but as a rule they won more than lost.

 

[HHJ]

I highly doubt it, after what Saku did CACC didn't become popular. And as far as I know Saku never produced anyone. Not to mention that Saku himself lost to BJJrs. The fight against Arona was horrible btw, he had to be almost killed to them declare him the loser, pathetic. Compare that to Saku's fight against the lighter Royler, who was declared the loser with less than 30 seconds left, and walked straight to his hotel room. Not to mention that the Saku vs Guy Mezger thing just makes the Royler's fight a whole more... suspect. And finally, did Saku even fight at the time?

Anyway CACC had many before Saku, just like Judo had before Kimura and Yoshi. Shamrock in the first UFC, and Anjo in a street fight against Rickson, the promotion for which Anjo was fighting even went into bankruptcy because of the beating that Anjo received, was what inspired PRIDE even, and what explains the interest of the Japanese / CACC guys in defeating Rickson.

As a rule, people just concetrate at the BJJs loses to these 2 styles, but as a rule they won more than lost.

Look at Nogueira vs Barnett I + II for a classic and competitive rivalry between these styles.

1 - 1

 

[LoClohs]

would have preffered to see a straight grappling match...but even then,Gardner had a good 100 lbs on Yoshida

Want to know what's funnier? Maybe if Yoshi had tried a guard pull/jump he would have won lol

But maybe it's just my memory playing a trick on me, I think the fight went to the ground in fact, Yoshi just didn't finish.