You should have to work at walmart, without a college degree.

[deadshot138]

I got my GED and make 59k a year at a wastewater plant. Worked myself up the ladder. Granted i did have to go through their apprenticeship school.

So then you were educated, with job specificity. Probably better than a college degree.

 

[deadshot138]

Minimum wage is more than enough for a middle class lifestyle if there was UHC, free schools, decent public transport and the such.

America is shit and getting shittier so that will never happen

 

[mike sherry]

people that work at walmart are just fine. american privilege is an amazing thing people can ignore

 

[KnightTemplar]

I work in Retail. I would recommend it if your dream job is something like Assassin, Drug Dealer, Politician, Lawyer, Terrorist or Arms Dealer. Trust me: nothing kills every last vestige of humanity, empathy and compassion faster than a tour of duty in a busy supermarket. Within six months you would be willing to slit a baby's throat in front of it's mother if it guaranteed you a better job.

 

[HomerThompson]

When I hear people say that if you work hard, and make good decisions, you will be successful, what I hear, is them saying you should work at Wal-Mart if you don't go to college.

See, I don't want to take things from others more successful, what I want is for the average person, with an average high school diploma, is given the opportunity to have a middle class life style.

Factory jobs in this country used to suck. They paid shit wages, and people died all the time at work. Then we had a labor revolution, where we took shit paying unsafe jobs, and forced employers through law to offer middle class wages, and safe work conditions.

When I was 16, in 1996 I was a high school drop out. I was able to find a job as a machinist grunt. The worked sucked, long hours, shit pay, but if I would have stuck with it, in 6 years I would have been making a middle class wage. Those opportunities were few and far between in 1996 compared to 1966, and they are almost non-existent today.

Most of us seem to agree that the American middle class is disappearing, and I don't think any tax plan, or regulation is going to fix that.

We need another labor revolution in this country. We don't need to empower the old corrupt unions, we need to organize, and create a new union structure, in the spirit of Jefferson's quote, of let there never be 20 years without a revolution such as this. Let us start fresh, where systems are uncorrupted and can actually work.

We need a national union. 1 union for all workers, to match the power of the bohemeths of the corporate, and government bodies.

If we have a need for a national guard, national Social Security, national Medicare, then we have a need for a national Union, with the collective bargaining power of every US worker that chooses to join.

Discuss......

Wholeheartedly agree with everything here. Also,

 

[HomerThompson]

There is no guarantee that hard work will lead to success, but it increase your odds of moving up the social ladder. I know people that worked two jobs their entire lives that barely able to support their families. Similiarly, success is not exclusively tied to hard work, as you can be the laziest mofo on earth but can live comfortably through inheritance from your rich parents. We need to get rid of the notion that poor = lazy and rich = hard working.

As far as unions go, never had a pleasant experience with any of them both as a member or on the management side. Also, some unions are very tangled up with organized crime. In my city for example, the Hells Angels are known to belong to the dockworker's union. Essentially they're free to smuggle shit in and out of the country, and it's been going on for years.

Did you read the OP?

 

[Lubaolong]

Do you need a college degree to be a successful stripper or pornstar?

You don't need a college degree to be a successful anything.

 

[ultramanhyata]

Its been done, it is called 1940-1970's america, when everyone was an economic progressive, even republicans.

From the late 1940's through the early 1970's: When a kid out of high school could get a job in a factory and quickly become part of the American middle-class. And know that he had a secure retirement in his future.

From the late 1940's through the early 1970's: What some in this thread would call the height of socialism. A dark period of entitlement in US history.

 

[ultramanhyata]

What you're saying is that without doing anything, or inheriting any risk, or developing any skills, or taking initiative to seek or innovate a better revenue stream, that the average person should be able to just avail themselves to some preordained destination when they get out of high school and be handed a job where they show up 8 hours a day 5x a week without giving a fuck, putting in minimum effort, and live a middle class lifestyle.

This is why Socialism fails every time.

It's not "the middle class" anymore if you define it as some type of rarefied air that only a small minority of the best and brightest are allowed to breathe.

In an economy with an 18.5 trillion dollar GDP a person shouldn't have to be a world beater to make 50K a year.

 

[ultramanhyata]

You don't need a college degree to be a successful anything.

You will never be considered a successful college student without a college degree.

Word.

 

[Rod1]

From the late 1940's through the early 1970's: When a kid out of high school could get a job in a factory and quickly become part of the American middle-class. And know that he had a secure retirement in his future.

From the late 1940's through the early 1970's: What some in this thread would call the height of socialism. A dark period of entitlement in US history.

People overestimate the wealth of the middle class back then and understimate the wealth of the middle cass today.

Also its normal that manufacturing jobs would eventually go away considering that back then the US represented like 40% of the worlds GDP and now its barely 20%, WW2 and Communism set the rest of the world back a lot so America had a head start.

Better fiscal policy and devaluation of the US dollar would work wonders.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

When I hear people say that if you work hard, and make good decisions, you will be successful, what I hear, is them saying you should work at Wal-Mart if you don't go to college.

See, I don't want to take things from others more successful, what I want is for the average person, with an average high school diploma, is given the opportunity to have a middle class life style.

Factory jobs in this country used to suck. They paid shit wages, and people died all the time at work. Then we had a labor revolution, where we took shit paying unsafe jobs, and forced employers through law to offer middle class wages, and safe work conditions.

When I was 16, in 1996 I was a high school drop out. I was able to find a job as a machinist grunt. The worked sucked, long hours, shit pay, but if I would have stuck with it, in 6 years I would have been making a middle class wage. Those opportunities were few and far between in 1996 compared to 1966, and they are almost non-existent today.

Most of us seem to agree that the American middle class is disappearing, and I don't think any tax plan, or regulation is going to fix that.

We need another labor revolution in this country. We don't need to empower the old corrupt unions, we need to organize, and create a new union structure, in the spirit of Jefferson's quote, of let there never be 20 years without a revolution such as this. Let us start fresh, where systems are uncorrupted and can actually work.

We need a national union. 1 union for all workers, to match the power of the bohemeths of the corporate, and government bodies.

If we have a need for a national guard, national Social Security, national Medicare, then we have a need for a national Union, with the collective bargaining power of every US worker that chooses to join.

Discuss......

I remember during the last World Cup when Germany won, there was news piece that came entitled something along the lines of how germans are truely the master race or something.

It goes on to talk about how their economy is doing so well, and have a solid middle class, and how most of their largest companies are just small to medium size across all industries including manufacturing. And of course it mentions that they lost two world wars, and inspite of sanctions, becoming the heel of video games, movies, and literature, and reparations are still where and what they are now.

Maybe that is the key. To be more like the Germans, and copy their model.

 

[SomebodyElse]

It always puzzles me when people point to a single 20-year period in world history, restricted to a single nation in extraordinary circumstance, as the baseline standard for societal performance.

1940's USA was under-utilized industrially at the outbreak of war. Government defense spending provided a huge economic infrastructure starting boost that allowed factories to be built, while every other industrial center (read: competitor) on earth was bombed into dust. Within it's wake, the US experienced a fluke ~17 years that have NEVER existed anywhere else, ever. Not only was no one available to compete on prices, but those would-be-rivals actually became buyers while rebuilding their own nations. By the later 1960's this was already "in decline" (IOW, returning to normal levels), and by the 1970's plenty of rivals had re-emerged.

Whenever I see people compare performance to this stretch, it reminds of some average guy happened to be walking past the limo right when the A-List starlet got out without underwear on ... and now uses that as his minimum acceptable woman on a dating app. It's insane.

No law known to humanity is going to make a typical high school graduate earn enough to purchase a decent brand-new home in the suburbs, buy his car outright (no loan), support a non-working wife and three children, plus go on vacations.
THIS is what that era saw commonplace. In any other era, this is pure fantasy.


P.S. I don't know which Union members people in this thread are talking to, but virtually everyone I know was forced out/into retirement as soon as they were eligible to make room for others. Plus, the new guys are getting paid less than new guys used to.

Also, @Drenalin's experience about St. Louis matches my own. I had a buddy who's dad had the job of helping other Union members "vote right".

 

[IDL]

I remember during the last World Cup when Germany won, there was news piece that came entitled something along the lines of how germans are truely the master race or something.

It goes on to talk about how their economy is doing so well, and have a solid middle class, and how most of their largest companies are just small to medium size across all industries including manufacturing. And of course it mentions that they lost two world wars, and inspite of sanctions, becoming the heel of video games, movies, and literature, and reparations are still where and what they are now.

Maybe that is the key. To be more like the Germans, and copy their model.

They do a lot right, but they also have a really low birth rate so they are mathematically unsustainable. They be workin themselves to extinction!

 

[MadSquabbles500]

They do a lot right, but they also have a really low birth rate so they are mathematically unsustainable. They be workin themselves to extinction!

Unless their low birthrate is what solely causes them to have the economy they have, and not because of some policies, then I dont see why their model cannot work with a larger population.

 

[ultramanhyata]

People overestimate the wealth of the middle class back then and understimate the wealth of the middle cass today.

Also its normal that manufacturing jobs would eventually go away considering that back then the US represented like 40% of the worlds GDP and now its barely 20%, WW2 and Communism set the rest of the world back a lot so America had a head start.

Better fiscal policy and devaluation of the US dollar would work wonders.

As a caveat let me add that I am not someone who believes high paying manufacturing jobs are ever coming back to the US (or will exist anywhere, for that matter).

We have turned a corner technologically and automation is an unstoppable force. The only solution is a post-market approach to wealth distribution. The alternative is social and economic calamity.

 

[JDragon]

When I hear people say that if you work hard, and make good decisions, you will be successful, what I hear, is them saying you should work at Wal-Mart if you don't go to college.

See, I don't want to take things from others more successful, what I want is for the average person, with an average high school diploma, is given the opportunity to have a middle class life style.

Factory jobs in this country used to suck. They paid shit wages, and people died all the time at work. Then we had a labor revolution, where we took shit paying unsafe jobs, and forced employers through law to offer middle class wages, and safe work conditions.

When I was 16, in 1996 I was a high school drop out. I was able to find a job as a machinist grunt. The worked sucked, long hours, shit pay, but if I would have stuck with it, in 6 years I would have been making a middle class wage. Those opportunities were few and far between in 1996 compared to 1966, and they are almost non-existent today.

Most of us seem to agree that the American middle class is disappearing, and I don't think any tax plan, or regulation is going to fix that.

We need another labor revolution in this country. We don't need to empower the old corrupt unions, we need to organize, and create a new union structure, in the spirit of Jefferson's quote, of let there never be 20 years without a revolution such as this. Let us start fresh, where systems are uncorrupted and can actually work.

We need a national union. 1 union for all workers, to match the power of the bohemeths of the corporate, and government bodies.

If we have a need for a national guard, national Social Security, national Medicare, then we have a need for a national Union, with the collective bargaining power of every US worker that chooses to join.

Discuss......

While I certainly agree that workers in the US - and employees in general - have allowed capitalists to have unrestricted power for far too long - that unskilled work just won't be coming back. You should rather think towards UBI.

 

[Rod1]

As a caveat let me add that I am not someone who believes high paying manufacturing jobs are ever coming back to the US (or will exist anywhere, for that matter).

We have turned a corner technologically and automation is an unstoppable force. The only solution is a post-market approach to wealth distribution. The alternative is social and economic calamity.

There are still tons of high paying manufacturing jobs, but these require technical degrees and jobs.

The US dollar being overvalued doesnt helps with manufacturing though.

 

[deltapapha]

the world, being not fair, already sucks enough than to make it way worse by trying to force it to be fair.

 

[HIMBOB]

No, not at all, but we need a whole lot more of them, or to turn bad jobs into middle class jobs, if we want to restore our middle class, and sustain actual consumption based growth instead of speculation driven bubbles.

Is the issue lack of middle class jobs or lack of jobs offering middle class pay?