Zhongguo Zhen Gongfu (CFC). Pro-Sanda revival

Are knees allowed in the world championships or the world sanda cup?

No, knees are only allowed in some Professional fights.

Also, I really find standard sanda (I don't like the word amateur as Chinese Sanda fighters are government trained and highly professional, and the skill level of the Sanda world cup is at least as good as the Pro fights, and possibly carries more weight and prestige) and King of Sanda more enjoyable to watch than CFC; the pace in the later just doesn't feel right.
Amateur Sanda just has much more flow to it (even the wrestling seem faster paced) and I'm wonder if anyone share this feeling:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7I8QGwFdP8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWXdcsWxmg0
 
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No, knees are only allowed in some Professional fights.

Also, I really find standard sanda (I don't like the word amateur as Chinese Sanda fighters are government trained and highly professional, and the skill level of the Sanda world cup is at least as good as the Pro fights, and possibly carries more weight and prestige) and King of Sanda more enjoyable to watch than CFC; the pace in the later just doesn't feel right.
Amateur Sanda just has much more flow to it and I'm wonder if anyone share this feeling:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7I8QGwFdP8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWXdcsWxmg0

To me it would make sense to just make a big production out of the big "standard Sanda" events. If the fighters are the best in the world it should be a good product. Every video I see of them are from some a guy with a camcorder standing at the side of the mat.
 
What appeals to me about unified rules and Sanda rules is again the wrestling. People forget that wrestling styles like Judo and Shuaijiao are standup focused and a good standup artist isn't just a person with good striking. MMA and BJJ really bought people into their idea of "realistic fights." I like Judo more than BJJ, and I dislike going to the ground. I want to see slams, not rolling on the ground. For me, BJJ and Abu Dhabi is less realistic than Judo because slams don't carry that much weight.
 
Im pretty sure slams arent even legal in BBJ and ADCC, which is weird because its such an intuitive part of grappling, more so than every submission except maybe the guillotine choke.
 
If I understand the situation correctly: Sanda has neither elbows nor knees, Shootboxing has knees but not elbows, and Unified Sanda-MT rules has both elbows and knees.
IIRC Shootboxing allows elbows only if both competitors agree to allowing them for their match.

How long is the clinch time in shoot boxing and are repeated knees allowed?

I know in Shootboxing that takedowns don't score unless they do damage, whereas in unified rules, all takedowns score 1 point as long as one fighter remains standing and doesn't end up going to the ground with the other. This really reduces the level of wrestling in Shootboxing. In amateur Sanshou high altitude and high difficulty throws score 3 points, more than both punches and kicks, and all takedowns score. If the executor of that takedown remains on his feet he scores 2 whereas if he goes to the ground on top, he scores 1. Unified and Pro Sanda rule took out the later from scoring any points, and in Unified rule, it reduced throws from 2 points to 1.
IIRC shoot boxing clinch time is at the discretion of judges, and multiple knees are allowed. Also, shootboxing criteria for takedowns is as follows: 3 points for a takedown that results in a knockdown (i.e. count starts), 1 point for a "shoot point" (i.e. a takedown is clean as determined by the ref), 1 point for forward throws, 2 points for a backwards throw (the same amount of points awarded for a knockdown from strikes!), and no points for takedowns where the opponent doesn't go higher than the thrower's hip (i.e. sweeps don't score points but do have an effect in terms of wearing down opponents).

Reference is here (helps if you understand Japanese [like me haha]):


The thing I don't like about Sanda unified rules is that the scoring criteria removes suplexes, sacrifice throws, and landing on top of thrown opponents, which are highly destructive and effective techniques. Less points for landing on top of opponents in ammy Sanda is bollocks in my opinion too, as landing on top of an opponent usually does more damage than a "clean" throw. But then again, I suppose that opens the argument of technical superiority versus actually dealing damage!
 
IIRC shoot boxing clinch time is at the discretion of judges, and multiple knees are allowed.

Well, in the present unified rules, the clinch time is five seconds, repeated knees are allowed, but knees to the face aren't allowed.


The thing I don't like about Sanda unified rules is that the scoring criteria removes suplexes, sacrifice throws, and landing on top of thrown opponents, which are highly destructive and effective techniques. Less points for landing on top of opponents in ammy Sanda is bollocks in my opinion too, as landing on top of an opponent usually does more damage than a "clean" throw. But then again, I suppose that opens the argument of technical superiority versus actually dealing damage!
Thanks. Ya, unified rules and even pro-sanda to some extent really killed the wrestling. Also, in "ammy sanda" going to the ground with an opponent is actually fine if its above the hip, if the opponent's feet shoots up in the air when they land, or if its a high difficulty level throw (like the scissor takedown), which will score 3 points regardless of whether you remain on the feet. Basically, in standard Sanda those high altitude "shoot points" of Shootboxing score three points, not just one or two (I think in king of sanda that was the rule too, don't know about CFC). Whereas takedowns below the hip score 2 if you remain standing, and one if you go to the ground with the guy. The idea is to keep yourself standing (this is a traditional self defense ideology; you never want to be on your back).


Less points for landing on top of opponents in ammy Sanda is bollocks in my opinion too, as landing on top of an opponent usually does more damage than a "clean" throw. But then again, I suppose that opens the argument of technical superiority versus actually dealing damage!

Not much more for low altitude throws...also the idea to to keep yourself standing is so you could stomp and kick the downed opponent(a traditional MA idea) and the fact that you are more vulnerable if you go down with the guy (scrambles, weapons and submissions).

Basically, shootboxing is still a striking based ruleset whereas slams score the same as basic punches, whereas standard sanda is more grappling focused where minor takedowns score the same as punches and kicks and slams score more than all, and it's 50/50 between striking and grappling. Old unified rules are fine but the new ones since 2009 does kill this to basically appease the Thai, so that's why I suggest bringing it back to score 3 or at least 2 points, so its more wrestling based.

Also, you can never truly reflect the damage of throws on a mat! Even slams rarely knock people out if they know how to fall on soft mats.
 
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Unified sanda/mt is so gay. I fought in a few of those and they are ridiculous. Sanda isn't considered cool even here in China.
 
Unified sanda/mt is so gay. I fought in a few of those and they are ridiculous. Sanda isn't considered cool even here in China.
You fought in unified rules? I have always thought that was only a government sponsored rule set and not used elsewhere. I personally prefer unified rules over K 1 rules anyday, K 1 is just full of restrictions and I prefer practicality.
There are plenty of Sanda fans in China, but K 1 is more popular because it looks better on the screen. As I said before, Chinese fans prefers what looks good than what is practical, and that's why MMA isn't as big as K 1 there either. I think taking out wrestling in Sanda as some suggests is absolutely stupid. They can just go watch Wu lingfeng, and leave Sanda to Sanda fans.
 
Wrestling is the thing I dislike most about Sanda. Keep that niche, I'll take WLF and Kunlun...
 
Old unified rules are fine but the new ones since 2009 does kill this to basically appease the Thai, so that's why I suggest bringing it back to score 3 or at least 2 points, so its more wrestling based.

Also, you can never truly reflect the damage of throws on a mat! Even slams rarely knock people out if they know how to fall on soft mats.

I remember a while back someone saying that Sanda rules were changing for the better because previously guys like Liu Hailong had dominated everyone just by being a better wrestler than them and now Sanda is becoming more of a striking art. Maybe its just whats popular with most people. Personally I like the more balanced rules because it produces fighters like this with lots of throws:

[YT]lRKa0myJDas[/YT]
 
Better for viewing perhaps, but not in terms of practicality and combat efficiency, as it simply leads to the decline of wrestling skills among the new fighters, which is the problem with combat sports nowadays. What is effective is taken at the expense of what looks good and Chinese fans are the most ignorant when it comes to analyzing martial arts because very few actually trained in them, they think that knockouts are the only thing that determines the legitimacy of a combat sport. Honestly, Chinese fans can be some of the most obtuse bunch on the planet, you don't hear Thais saying MT needs to prove itself in K1 or Americans saying MMA needs to prove itself in K 1. Sanda isn't a striking based sport and that's why there aren't that many knockouts, nor does it have to "prove itself" in K 1, a sport with more restrictions, to be legit, and fortunately, the Chinese Martial Association has enough sense to not taking up these people's suggestions in throwing out wrestling all together.
 
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Wrestling is the thing I dislike most about Sanda. Keep that niche, I'll take WLF and Kunlun...

Well, wrestling is the thing I like about it...so each to his own. I personally do not like the way Pro Sanda is trying to be a striking based sport to conform to K 1 rules. The less restrictions the better. I like old unified rules (with a bit of adjustment like increasing the clinch time) because it applies every weapon around, with elbows, knees, to throws.

Personally I like the more balanced rules because it produces fighters like this with lots of throws:

Cung Le is one of a kind. I don't think any Sanda fighter outside of some early guys with Judo, Shuaijiao and Freestyle backgrounds really reached his wrestling ability. His striking was average but the throws he was able to pull off really looked good on the screen too, if Cung Le fought more in China, I really think Sanda would have been bigger and people would have stopped complaining about wrestling element of Sanda.

Also, Cung Le used both freestyle and sanda (shuaijiao) style wrestling and that was what made him good. Most Chinese Sanda fighters have Sanda wrestling background which is more similar to Judo and Shuaijiao style throws where one uses their opponent's force against themselves; basically lots of counter throws and takedowns for off balancing the opponent. Freestyle uses your strength in the right way and angle to overpower your opponent; Cung Le could use both. People really haven't seen what his wrestling potentials were in MMA. He has GSP level transitions from striking to throws. I have little doubt he can hold his own or even outwrestle guys like Chael Sonnen (MMA wrestling) and go toe to toe with GSP.
 
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Its too bad he retired. This would have been the perfect time to finally make Cung Le vs Anderson Silva. I remember really wanting that fight when Cung was dominating Strikeforce.
 
Well it seems you are the minority, even in China.
I don't live in China...
I'm also a Shuaijiao and Judo fan, so that's probably why.
Also, while there are more people who watch Wu Lingfeng, the audience is generally people who aren't hardcore martial arts fans, one should not treat Sanda as some kind of vast minority, there are a lot of people who watches Sanda in China; and I'm willing to bet that among Martial Arts fans, there are more people who are fans of Sanda than kickboxing; its simple, Sanda is still by far the most popular combat sport there aside from TKD.
 
CFC is not competition for WLF or Kunlun. They are a low level regional promotion that does a good job preparing guys for the bigger national shows, but they are still paying around 600 rmb per fight, which is a little less than $100 US.

Nothing to lose your mind about.
 
I don't live in China...
I'm also a Shuaijiao and Judo fan, so that's probably why.
Also, while there are more people who watch Wu Lingfeng, the audience is generally people who aren't hardcore martial arts fans, one should not treat Sanda as some kind of vast minority, there are a lot of people who watches Sanda in China; and I'm willing to bet that among Martial Arts fans, there are more people who are fans of Sanda than kickboxing; its simple, Sanda is still by far the most popular combat sport there aside from TKD.
I wasn't implying you were from China, I was implying the Chinese are clearly showing more interest in a more Kickboxing styled sport, hence why you are on here wishing it went back to a more Wrestling influenced sport. They changed it because people aren't as entertained by it.
 
I wasn't implying you were from China, I was implying the Chinese are clearly showing more interest in a more Kickboxing styled sport, hence why you are on here wishing it went back to a more Wrestling influenced sport. They changed it because people aren't as entertained by it.

The problem isn't just preference, the problem is that there are really a bunch of Chinese idiotic fans out there who thinks K 1 is more realistic than Sanda because K 1 is international and popular or perhaps they see that there are more knockouts. Chinese people generally don't train MA and hence they don't understand and appreciate that effective martial arts aren't necessarily the most visual one. I have no problem with what the audience prefer, but they should just stick to watching Wu Lingfeng and other kickboxing promotions and leave Sanda alone. There are more boxing fans than any other combat sport, but boxing fans at least don't pretend boxing is the most legit combat sport on the planet because it is the most professional and internationally recognized with the most knockouts and suggest that kickboxing should abandon kicks and just punch.
 
Okay so the Chinese fans are "idiots" because they prefer Kickboxing. I guess we're all idiots on this forum as well.

Ya, Boxing fans never talk about how superior their sport is...
 
To the Cung Le clueless fan boys that's so excited about Cung Le's throwing or takedown skills, you guys need to remember and keep this in mind. Cung Le couldn't even throw Scott Smith in MMA. Wanderlei Silva, Michael Bisping, he couldn't even throw them! Cung Le's throwing and takedown skills is OVERRATED! It only works on weaker opponents.
 
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