Muay thai is too overrated on these forums

[Jukai]

In terms of what? Effectiveness? More fun to watch?

Kyokushin karate is the only form of karate that can compete with MT/k1 in terms of effectiveness, or to watch.

Shotokan sucks.

You no has hespect

 

[AhuraMazda]

You no has hespect

Machida is more then just Shotokan though. I can see Shotokan being good for MMA in terms of timing and what not, but in my experience in sparring stand up with them whether in knockdown karate rules or kick boxing rules, they dont last very long. :icon_chee

 

[Jukai]

Machida is more then just Shotokan though. I can see Shotokan being good for MMA in terms of timing and what not, but in my experience in sparring stand up with them whether in knockdown karate rules or kick boxing rules, they dont last very long. :icon_chee

I agree. I did Shotokan for seven years than transitioned to kickboxing; without heavy cross training in boxing/kickboxing/kyokushin, I wouldn't have done very well at all.

But I think Shotokan, and other similar types of types of arts, are much better in terms of MMA. Bigger ring with no corners that allows for easier movement, the long stance can be used to prevent takedowns and there are far fewer leg kicks to worry about in MMA. Of course, it's worthless without cross training, but most everything is in MMA.

Seriously, corners and leg kicks suck.

 

[A Muse of Fire]

I agree. I did Shotokan for seven years than transitioned to kickboxing; without heavy cross training in boxing/kickboxing/kyokushin, I wouldn't have done very well at all.

But I think Shotokan, and other similar types of types of arts, are much better in terms of MMA. Bigger ring with no corners that allows for easier movement, the long stance can be used to prevent takedowns and there are far fewer leg kicks to worry about in MMA. Of course, it's worthless without cross training, but most everything is in MMA.

Seriously, corners and leg kicks suck.

What do you think about switching stance?

 

[Jukai]

What do you think about switching stance?

The more complex combinations and body movements you use, the more difficult it is to do. That is why Karate and Taekwondo, which use very basic attacks and combinations (but use a lot of them), and depend on footwork and distance instead of head movement, can switch stances but boxers and kickboxers will have more trouble, too many mechanics to master.

Everyone talks about Machida, and Machida has a boatload of attacks but they're normally singular or one-two attacks, it's easier for him to master both sides. Guys like Pettis and Jones have me in awe, they can throw swift combinations from either stance, it's real impressive.

Of course, it's easier to get away with stance switching in MMA because the striking itself is always going to be at a level lower than in Kickboxing or Muay Thai. There might just be too little return at that level.

 

[kickingtime]

well that's the thing with some of the karate stuf....it's very flashy and of course when it connects it can lead to a beautiful ko, but a game fighter that's fresh and fights with basics......isn't very often going to be surprised by it

Hoost completely schooled him, at 1 point he threw three livers punches in a row

what would you call changpuek kiatsongrit if not a game fighter with great fundamentals?

Thompson just needed to cross train boxing to work on his hands like alot of pure karateka did. Even a pure karate guy like fransico filho knocked hoost out cold in a brutal fashion.

anyway what you are saying about karate makes no sense because many of the original trainers of the dutch kickboxers were kyokushin guys like hoosts trainer jan plas. If you watch any of hoost 's training youd know his trainers were karate guys using japanese phrases. but w.e you say bra

 

[kickingtime]

Machida is more then just Shotokan though. I can see Shotokan being good for MMA in terms of timing and what not, but in my experience in sparring stand up with them whether in knockdown karate rules or kick boxing rules, they dont last very long. :icon_chee

what does machida do that is outside of the shotokan as far as standup goes?

 

[Azam]

Machida is more then just Shotokan though. I can see Shotokan being good for MMA in terms of timing and what not, but in my experience in sparring stand up with them whether in knockdown karate rules or kick boxing rules, they dont last very long. :icon_chee

This is coming from a Kyokushin guy --- I look at shotokan very highly, mind you I'm referring in particular to the JKA.

There are many things Kyokushin guys can learn from shotokan karateka IMHO - and that shotokan in general does a better job of teaching a lot of technical skills, fundamentals & intangibles miles better than Kyokushin.

For instance look at basic stances and the difference in emphasis between the two Karate's - shotokan delves into weight distributions, bio-mechanics, posture etc etc in a way that Kyokushin barely even touches - you don't get the same emphasis, even remotely - and while it may not seem important at first glance - it is extremely important, in both general Karate training and in kumite or fighting application, it's a must to have that emphasis.

Learning basic stances with the 'needed' emphasis such as posture, weight distribution, biomechanics - teaches you intangibles that translate to kumite or fighting.

The movement is obviously something that is quite a noticeable advantage, but I think the greatest advantage shotokan cultivates that Kyokushin does not (at least to the same degree) - is teaching it's practitioners how to create space & how to make use of it - distance, timing & positioning are all subtly linked - and shotokan does a magnificent job in trying to impart these traits into it's students - in Kyokushin partly because of the knockdown karate, the emphasis for such things is not there the way it is in shotokan.

Very few Kyokushin guys display all those traits and the one's that do, always tend to become great or legendary Kyokushin karateka like Kancho Matsui & Michael Thompson - I think back in the day, much more importance was given to those things and less importance is given to them today in KK. As a Kyokushin guy to prove my point - when is the last time you saw someone in knockdown with Matsui's skill or of his calibre.....it's been at over 30 years and no-one has come even remotely close.....have we seen anyone with his sense of positioning, timing or sense of distance.....I can readily say the closest I saw of it was 14 years ago when Kazumi/Filho still competed - you rarely see it at all nowadays.

I'm not saying it's easy to get to Matsui's level, what I'm trying to point out is the shift in emphasis - what made Matsui Kancho the greatest were those 3 things I've mentioned, he had them down to the letter - it's not a silly observation. Watch the 4th or 5th world tournament & compare it to the 10th world tournament - completely different skillsets & way of approaching knockdown than that of KK guys today - and it has much to do with the instruction being given then & now. Although with shinkyokushin & with Tsukamoto before he retired we saw that old approach being used in modern knockdown karate & even in his older age, Tsukamoto was giving younger/fitter fighters beatings precisely because they didn't have the same intangibles down ----- precisely because Tsukamoto was brought up in that style of fighting in Shihan Hiroshige's dojo along with Midori, Kazumi & Yamaki.

Anyway this is getting off-topic lol but felt like giving my opinion on the topic.

 

[briscola]

I've been doing Thai boxing for a few years now and I have to say I actually agree with you.... it's boring as hell to watch.

I have to say though, its a lot of fun to actually do & in a way i prefer that it's not super popular.

 

[echohead]

Sure I'll agree with the OP as far as MT as a spectator sport goes it has many problems inside and outside the ring. As far as a martial art it is one of my favorites.

 

[NidNoi]

Look Payak, that person isn't a Goju-Ryu Karateka, first off. He was a college-Karate champion in the 70s, which means he was likely a Shotokan or Shotokan off-shoot. He was also a relatively mid-level fighter--- akin to a college basketball star who hadn't tested his skills in the NBA.

I am not Payak. LOL

Holy shit ! New info,Karate guy in this clip is goju-ryu.LOL
The important matter is that kyokushin claimed that it derived leg kick,knee & elbow strikes from goju-ryu.
Moreover,after this fight,japan karate didn't annoy muay thai anymore.LOL

[YT]px1Ivctja4w[/YT]

ついに4ラウンド、右フックでダウンしたところでレフェリーが試合を止めた。 KOタイムは2分53秒。 ダウンは合計16回にも及ぶ。 沢村は担架に乗せられて退場し、試合の記憶は途中から無い。 病院直行となり、そのまま入院した。 奥歯が5本抜けており、打撲と診察されてものが37箇所、出血13箇所、更にヒジ打ちを食った後頭部は陥没していた。 高熱が一週間続き、頭には継続的に激痛が走る。 半殺し状態である。

http://ww5.tiki.ne.jp/~qyoshida/training/zakkityou/30sawamura.htm

I don't read japanese but I used google to translate it into english.

In the link above,Japanese confirmed he was goju-ryu not a shotokan karate. LOL

 

[Brocktirement**]

what would you call changpuek kiatsongrit if not a game fighter with great fundamentals?

Thompson just needed to cross train boxing to work on his hands like alot of pure karateka did. Even a pure karate guy like fransico filho knocked hoost out cold in a brutal fashion.

anyway what you are saying about karate makes no sense because many of the original trainers of the dutch kickboxers were kyokushin guys like hoosts trainer jan plas. If you watch any of hoost 's training youd know his trainers were karate guys using japanese phrases. but w.e you say bra

dipshit,|I am dutch and I have trained under trainers that were influenced by karate and anyone who steps into a dutch gym knows the terminalogy they use is japanese and not thai or even english....

I'm of course talking about all the flashy spinning techniques....they can connect and do domage/lead to a ko, but in all fairness.....you won't surprise alot of fighters in a kickboxing ring like that

kickboxing/mt techniques are, imo, far more applicable...so please don't start lecturing me about what dutch trainers were influenced by, that has nothing do to with my comment.....

 

[kickingtime]

dipshit,|I am dutch and I have trained under trainers that were influenced by karate and anyone who steps into a dutch gym knows the terminalogy they use is japanese and not thai or even english....

I'm of course talking about all the flashy spinning techniques....they can connect and do domage/lead to a ko, but in all fairness.....you won't surprise alot of fighters in a kickboxing ring like that

kickboxing/mt techniques are, imo, far more applicable...so please don't start lecturing me about what dutch trainers were influenced by, that has nothing do to with my comment.....

look fool, noone was asking for you input so be grateful I addressed you at all. calling a turning side kick flashy is laughable. thompson was throwing that thing all night and still landed it. Kiatsongrit is a seasoned mt vet who according to you shouldve seen it coming. What is your excuse for the ko? you are shitting all over a great fighter just to establish some boring hierarchy. shame on you

here are some more gifs of top kickboxers not being surprised by flashy karate techniques.

.

 

[Pem123]

look fool, noone was asking for you input so be grateful i addressed you at all. Calling a turning side kick flashy is laughable. Thompson was throwing that thing all night and still landed it. Kiatsongrit is a seasoned mt vet who according to you shouldve seen it coming. What is your excuse for the ko? You are shitting all over a great fighter just to establish some boring hierarchy. Shame on you

here are some more gifs of top kickboxers not being surprised by flashy karate techniques.

.

andyyyyy hugggg

 

[Muay o Muay]

I am not Payak. LOL

..yep thats what Payak would say.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

..yep thats what Payak would say.

i concur. its so payak

hallo payak. hows australia?

 

[NidNoi]

here are some more gifs of top kickboxers not being surprised by flashy karate techniques.

.

This kick isn't karate kick. Old gen japanese stole from here (@3:00)


[YT]px1Ivctja4w[/YT]

hahaha japanese karate

 

[TonyK]

Man, this thread simply refuses to die...

"Muay Thai" is more than just little Thais fighting at Lumpinee, Muay Thai is a base and a way of thinking of many K-1 and MMA fighters too. I support the point that it is a more complete and effective set of principles for standup fighting than basically anything else - while at the same time being very simple and straightforward. But on the other hand, of course it will be more complete and effective when used by a fighter that understand the basics of sports like Boxing and can effectively add techniques from Karate and TKD to his MT base. I refuse to be a part of this X versus Y debate, because a more complete fighter = better fighter.

 

[Pem123]

this thread is awesome

keep it going guys

 

[Pem123]

Nidnoi keep posting the same video as the main source of his argument , where kyokushin fighters from oyama dojo won that matchs 2-1, which kinda destroy his whole argument.