- Joined
- Feb 23, 2014
- Messages
- 57,520
- Reaction score
- 25,157
The question doesn't seem to fit the scenario. She didn't sacrifice her life for her child. She sacrificed her child for the struggle.Are you gonna answer the question though?
The question doesn't seem to fit the scenario. She didn't sacrifice her life for her child. She sacrificed her child for the struggle.Are you gonna answer the question though?
It does because the mother was being criticized for going off to protest at all but dodge notedThe question doesn't seem to fit the scenario. She didn't sacrifice her life for her child. She sacrificed her child for the struggle.
I never said a word about the mother going off to protest and I didn't dodge anything. All I've said is that bringing that infant to the area of a violent protest was inexcusably foolish. And it was.It does because the mother was being criticized for going off to protest at all but dodge noted
Anyway, it was her brother who brought the baby to the tent. Sure it was foolish but people do foolish things when they've been deprived of dignity and hope and basic necessities. I'm not an uncle yet but if I was and my brother left his baby with me to go off to a protest where he might die, I might do something stupid myself.
Okay fine, pat yourself on the back from the comfort of your home I guess.I never said a word about the mother going off to protest and I didn't dodge anything. All I've said is that bringing that infant to the area of a violent protest was inexcusably foolish. And it was.
I don't care about all the excuses of no hope, etc. If he agreed to stay home and babysit the infant so mom could go protest, then stay home with the infant.
And if you were in that situation and did the same, it would be very stupid of you, which you seem to admit.
As far as living under apartheid, which I find a silly comparison, given the extensive range of civil rights accorded to Israeli Arabs, I'd say the Palestinians should admit defeat, stop trying to conquer Israel, admit that Israel has a right to exist, and negotiate in good faith. That worked quite well for Egypt and Jordan.
Speaking of good faith, why do people always deflect to the Israeli Arabs when the truth of Israeli Apartheid is brought up? No one is ever referring to the Israeli Arabs, they face their own challenges but its clear that when I and others referring to the Apartheid over there we're referring to the occupied territories, especially Gaza. Its such a disingenuous ploy.As far as living under apartheid, which I find a silly comparison, given the extensive range of civil rights accorded to Israeli Arabs, I'd say the Palestinians should admit defeat, stop trying to conquer Israel, admit that Israel has a right to exist, and negotiate in good faith. That worked quite well for Egypt and Jordan.
It isn't disingenuous at all, nor is it a deflection. The point is that whatever racial issues Israel has, they do not extend to systematically depriving racial minorities of their civil rights. Israel offers more extensive rights to its Arab citizens than most, if not all, Arab states do. That fatally undercuts the notion that it is an apartheid state.Speaking of good faith, why do people always deflect to the Israeli Arabs when the truth of Israeli Apartheid is brought up? No one is ever referring to the Israeli Arabs, they face their own challenges but its clear that when I and others referring to the Apartheid over there we're referring to the occupied territories, especially Gaza. Its such a disingenuous ploy.
Pawns is exactly right. It is unfortunate, but the Palestinians were very useful over the decades as a thorn in Israel's side. Now that the other Arabs states are becoming more worried about other threats, they are being left high and dry. No one is on their side and their closest neighbor is a mortal enemy. Time to hoist the white flag and get the best deal they can, which isn't likely to be as much as they'd have gotten 25 years ago.Exactly correct. If you have any genuine concern for these people then this is the only reasonable stance.
On the other hand, if you don’t care whether they all die as Islamic pawns in a futile clash they can never win then you’ll continue to encourage this senseless conflict.
I already said that I'm not talking about the Arab citizens of Israel so not sure why you keep going on about them.It isn't disingenuous at all, nor is it a deflection. The point is that whatever racial issues Israel has, they do not extend to systematically depriving racial minorities of their civil rights. Israel offers more extensive rights to its Arab citizens than most, if not all, Arab states do. That fatally undercuts the notion that it is an apartheid state.
Its very clearly Apartheid. The Israeli government is in control of the occupied territories and applies a radically different set of laws to the occupied territories as evidenced by the fact that they try the Palestinians in military courts.The problem remains that there is a sizable minority of Arabs who not only do not swear fealty to Israel but do not even recognize its right to exist. As non-citizens, of course Israel does not grant them the rights of citizens. Calling that apartheid is to me the disingenuous deflection.
Whatever civil rights Palestinians ought to have, such as suffrage, ought to come from the PA, which is unfortunately a shitty little gangster government that refuses to hold elections.
Its been rejected by Israel as well, they've never agreed to full sovereignty and statehood for Palestine and most Israeli government officials reject the right of the Palestinians to their own state.The best way forward is a two state solution, which is consistently rejected by the PA, which hasn't even gone as far as recognizing Israel's right to exist after seventy years. I think they had much more leverage in the late 90s and early 2000s than they do now. If they don't attempt to compromise soon, they won't have many bargaining chips left at all.
Why do you get to assert what they should and shouldn't do? Like I said earlier, some people are willing to give up quite a bit for their cause, when you look at the squalor of the Palestinians its not hard to imagine why someone would feel that way. There were ids at the Amristar massacre as well, was it the fault of the Indians for allowing them there or the British for opening fire on unarmed civilians?
The rest makes more sense.
That's certainly fair historically, but it also depends on asking Muslims or Christians in Lebanon.
Not that Lebanese or Syrian or Egyptian Christians are fans of Israel either, most are not, but a lot more will see the danger of Saudi Arabia and Iran, who are active in destroying their ancient communities in Syria and Egypt through hidden hand payments from the Saudi's, Iranians, and Turkish payments to ISIS, other radical groups, the Muslim Brotherhood, and other bad actors willing to use community intimidation and when that fails open violence to cause trouble.
Cyprus is another troubling place to look, depending which side of Cyprus one ended up on.
Israel is also unfair to Muslims and Christians (arbitrary taxes, harassment, bureaucratic red tape) but, if you were a Christian would you rather live in or under the aegis of Israel or are most of the neighbors not that great?
I think in the case of the Iranians he meant their support for other radical groups like Hezbollah and the Iraqi Shiite militias. Don't know how bad those guys are with Christians though. The Iraqi Shiite militias have a reputation for nasty reprisals against Sunnis(though apparently it wasn't as bad as expected in the wake of the fall of ISIS) but I've never heard of the Shiite groups going after Christians.Wait a sec, the Iranians have made deals with ISIS?
I think in the case of the Iranians he meant their support for other radical groups like Hezbollah and the Iraqi Shiite militias. Don't know how bad those guys are with Christians though. The Iraqi Shiite militias have a reputation for nasty reprisals against Sunnis(though apparently it wasn't as bad as expected in the wake of the fall of ISIS) but I've never heard of the Shiite groups going after Christians.
In fact I think Hezbollah even has a Christian brigade among their ranks and a popular Christian Lebanese singer, Julia Boutros, even composed these songs in honor of Hezbollah and their war of resilience against Israel in 2006. She donated the proceeds($3 million, three times the original goal) to the families of the Hezbollah fighters who died in addition to the civilian families affected by that conflicted in South Lebanon.
So @InternetHero should not underestimate the closeness between some of the Christian Arabs and their Muslim neighbors, in many cases they side with them over Israel. Which is not to say everything is fine and dandy over there between Arab Christians and Muslims either to be fair.
In fact I think Hezbollah even has a Christian brigade among their ranks and a popular Christian Lebanese singer, Julia Boutros, even composed these songs in honor of Hezbollah and their war of resistance against Israel in 2006. She donated the proceeds($3 million, three times the original goal) to the families of the Hezbollah fighters who died in addition to the civilian families affected by that conflicted in South Lebanon.
Survey: 60% of Arab Israelis have positive view of state
“The bottom line is there is more identification with Israel than with a possible Palestinian state,” said one of the survey's directors.
A survey of Arab citizens of Israel has found more positive attitudes to the state and its institutions than was previously thought.
Sixty percent surveyed said they had a favorable view of the state, while 37% said their view was unfavorable.
The poll, whose findings were released Wednesday, was conducted by the Israel office of the Konrad Adenauer Stiftung, the Konrad Adenauer Program for Jewish-Arab Cooperation at Tel Aviv University’s Dayan Center and Keevoon, a research, strategy and communications company.
The poll, conducted last month, surveyed 876 citizens of Israel and 125 east Jerusalem permanent residents. It had a margin of error of 2.25%.
Broken down by religion, 49% of Muslims view the state favorably compared with 48% unfavorably, while 61% of Christians view it favorably compared to 33% unfavorably.
Ninety-four percent of Druse view the state favorably compared to 6% unfavorably.
In the view of Michael Borchard, Israel director of the Konrad Adenauer Stiftung, one of the most significant findings came in response to the question posed to citizens, “Which term best describes you?” The largest number, 28%, replied “Israeli Arab” while 11% said “Israeli,” 13% said “Arab citizen of Israel” and 2% said “Israeli Muslim.” Only 15% said “Palestinian” while 4% said “Palestinian in Israel,” 3% said “Palestinian citizen in Israel” and 2% said “Israeli Palestinian.”
https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/S...b-Israelis-have-positive-view-of-state-506150
Oh my god with this shitIt does because the mother was being criticized for going off to protest at all but dodge noted
Anyway, it was her brother who brought the baby to the tent. Sure it was foolish but people do foolish things when they've been deprived of dignity and hope and basic necessities. I'm not an uncle yet but if I was and my brother left his baby with me to go off to a protest where he might die, I might do something stupid myself.
I think in the case of the Iranians he meant their support for other radical groups like Hezbollah and the Iraqi Shiite militias. Don't know how bad those guys are with Christians though. The Iraqi Shiite militias have a reputation for nasty reprisals against Sunnis(though apparently it wasn't as bad as expected in the wake of the fall of ISIS) but I've never heard of the Shiite groups going after Christians.
In fact I think Hezbollah even has a Christian brigade among their ranks and a popular Christian Lebanese singer, Julia Boutros, even composed these songs in honor of Hezbollah and their war of resistance against Israel in 2006. She donated the proceeds($3 million, three times the original goal) to the families of the Hezbollah fighters who died in addition to the civilian families affected by that conflicted in South Lebanon.
So @InternetHero should not underestimate the closeness between some of the Christian Arabs and their Muslim neighbors, in many cases they side with them over Israel. Which is not to say everything is fine and dandy over there between Arab Christians and Muslims either to be fair.
Wait a sec, the Iranians have made deals with ISIS?
I did not mean to indicate that, and on reading my post again, I do not see that.
Which part was confusing? I'll try to clarify if necessary.
Not that Lebanese or Syrian or Egyptian Christians are fans of Israel either, most are not, but a lot more will see the danger of Saudi Arabia and Iran, who are active in destroying their ancient communities in Syria and Egypt through hidden hand payments from the Saudi's, Iranians, and Turkish payments to ISIS, other radical groups, the Muslim Brotherhood, and other bad actors willing to use community intimidation and when that fails open violence to cause trouble.