Anyone try the Modern Leg Lock Formula Instructional ?

The meta has evolved so rapidly everyone is trying to catch up. I've been the "leg lock guy" since I was a blue belt, but at black I'm still having to relearn the new and more efficient ways the youngsters are doing things.
What's shocking to me, looking back, is just how much previously accepted practice stuff just does not work anymore (on someone with a clue). When I started, everyone was doing the ankle lock what I would now call just flat-out wrong. Same with heel hooks. And that's just the finishes! The actual control methods are even more different. The modern way to hold basic leg control / irimi ashigarami is completely different from how it used to be taught. In a lot of ways you're doing the opposite action with many body parts. Outside leg control / ashi garami used to be considered just a leg drag for the other guy! People used to go preferentially from the saddle to 50/50 - Ryan Hall even taught a transition on his DVD, I think. The concept of hip and knee control were so primitive or nonexistent.

It's no wonder that so many "old-school" black belts denigrate the modern leg game. It's completely incompatible with their previous views and methodology. In the same way that a modern code-writing app won't run on Windows 95.
 
This gets me worried. I am getting close to black and I can do kneebars and ankle locks but I have zero knowledge of the leglock meta. Hell I learned how to do an estima lock yesterday from a YT video. None of the guys at my school know shit about leg locks.

If my move to 10th planet goes according to plan it will be fun being humbled again. Getting my ass tossed by the wrestlers and my legs destroyed by the leg lock guys.

It's so different now. The game is much better and so much more positional.

Once you wrap your head around it all the stuff you have learnt from the regular top body game of BJJ can be applied.

It's less about rolling and catching things and more about getting those entries before transitioning to a stable position to finish.

It's fun but I am only just relearning it all since I train at an comp based school.
 
It's so different now. The game is much better and so much more positional.

Once you wrap your head around it all the stuff you have learnt from the regular top body game of BJJ can be applied.

It's less about rolling and catching things and more about getting those entries before transitioning to a stable position to finish.

It's fun but I am only just relearning it all since I train at an comp based school.

Yea the positional aspect is a good point. I remember when I saw that Gordon Ryan vs. Cyborg match from ADCC. Blew my mind. Ryan just had him controlled the entire time. Cyborg had no idea wtf was happening until he knew he needed to tap. It was such a contrast to the usual ADCC matches where there's a lot of stalling or just nonstop scrambling. Ryan had him controlled at every point of the ground engagement.
 
Yea the positional aspect is a good point. I remember when I saw that Gordon Ryan vs. Cyborg match from ADCC. Blew my mind. Ryan just had him controlled the entire time. Cyborg had no idea wtf was happening until he knew he needed to tap. It was such a contrast to the usual ADCC matches where there's a lot of stalling or just nonstop scrambling. Ryan had him controlled at every point of the ground engagement.

If you watch the danaher episode of the Joe rogan podcast where he breaks it down it's pretty informative. He basically explains exactly where Cyborg goes wrong and when it's over.
I can't stand Joe and Danaher's voices, but I will say that episode was great and made me realise the differences. I was basically taught "grip and rip" for my leg locks and to defend by fighting hands and holding the head. He explains posture, not getting put on your backside and controlling things like the opposite leg. I hate to say it but it blew my mind. I don't use leg locks much at the moment, but I look forward to adding them back in one day with these types of approaches.
 
What's shocking to me, looking back, is just how much previously accepted practice stuff just does not work anymore (on someone with a clue). When I started, everyone was doing the ankle lock what I would now call just flat-out wrong. Same with heel hooks. And that's just the finishes! The actual control methods are even more different. The modern way to hold basic leg control / irimi ashigarami is completely different from how it used to be taught. In a lot of ways you're doing the opposite action with many body parts. Outside leg control / ashi garami used to be considered just a leg drag for the other guy! People used to go preferentially from the saddle to 50/50 - Ryan Hall even taught a transition on his DVD, I think. The concept of hip and knee control were so primitive or nonexistent.

It's no wonder that so many "old-school" black belts denigrate the modern leg game. It's completely incompatible with their previous views and methodology. In the same way that a modern code-writing app won't run on Windows 95.


I'd like to point out that for how much of a woo hippie blowhard he was, Scott Sonnon was doing most of these things mechanically right in the early 2000's
 
I'd like to point out that for how much of a woo hippie blowhard he was, Scott Sonnon was doing most of these things mechanically right in the early 2000's
I've never studied his material - did he use outside ashi? Hip pin in irimi ashi? Bridge rather than turn when doing heel hooks?

I've heard he got a lot right.
 
I'd like to point out that for how much of a woo hippie blowhard he was, Scott Sonnon was doing most of these things mechanically right in the early 2000's
I have his Mastering the Saddle book years but always found the text wasn't great and the b&w pictures don't show things too well. From his material you know and have seen what books or video stuff would you recommend?
 
i also have the book, and truth to be told, he exposes the same concept of danaher, he says that he wanted to bring the ''position before submission'' methodology of bjj into the leg lock game of sambo, later i will copy some paragraph from his book when i return to home.
 
I wonder does anybody uses leglock positions as transitions to guard passes?
 
I've never studied his material - did he use outside ashi? Hip pin in irimi ashi? Bridge rather than turn when doing heel hooks?

I've heard he got a lot right.

In order 1) Yes, he called it and 50/50 both "side saddle" but showed both 2) Emphasized pinning a lot 3) Yes on bridging. Also used rolling mechanics in ankle locks, but explained it really badly (even though you can physically see he's doing the same thing that Riley is)
 
I wonder does anybody uses leglock positions as transitions to guard passes?
Me. And passes as transitions in to leglocks. Or at least i try ;-)

I've looked for years and there is surprisingly little out there on combining them to in any detail. I've also asked people like Roli Delgado, Cavaca and Norbi Nowak specific questions at seminars on it too because its so hard to find anyone showing the two fully integrated. Most stuff is along the lines of 'fall back with his leg, better stand up to pass if you can't tap him'.

Some examples of simple things i try to use are:

a) Torreando to set up Cross-body entries when the lower leg is a problem and Estima Locks when the upper leg comes over.
b) Using Leg Drags and any Cross-body leg attacks as two sides of one coin and happily transitioning between constantly.
c) Attacking the exposed foot on the hip in SLX to force reactions to make passing openings rather than working passes directly.
d) Looking to Estima or Lins Lock the top foot in half guard, especially knee shield half. Again to create a reaction and submit or pass of it.

If you are passing open guard standing and can pin the bottom leg with your foot or knee then its inevitable the top leg will go somewhere you can enter a cross-body leg lock position from, Estima Lock or Lins Lock from. The latter two are great as they don't require the same degree of control as a toe hold to finish and have to be respected so at worse the leg is going to be moved out of the way of a pass at least temporarily to defend. You can easily switch between attacking pass and sub or vice-versa without really giving up position with them.

I'd love to see somebody who actually knows jiu-jitsu do a set on it or develop a system though.
 
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Me. And passes as transitions in to leglocks. Or at least i try ;-)

I've looked for years and there is surprisingly little out there on combining them to in any detail. I've also asked people like Roli Delgado, Cavaca and Norbi Nowak specific questions at seminars on it too because its so hard to find anyone showing the two fully integrated. Most stuff is along the lines of 'fall back with his leg, better stand up to pass if you can't tap him'.

Some examples of simple things i try to use are:

a) Torreando to set up Cross-body entries when the lower leg is a problem and Estima Locks when the upper leg comes over.
b) Using Leg Drags and any Cross-body leg attacks as two sides of one coin and happily transitioning between constantly.
c) Attacking the exposed foot on the hip in SLX to force reactions to make passing openings rather than working passes directly.
d) Looking to Estima or Lins Lock the top foot in half guard, especially knee shield half. Again to create a reaction and submit or pass of it.

If you are passing open guard standing and can pin the bottom leg with your foot or knee then its inevitable the top leg will go somewhere you can enter a cross-body leg lock position from, Estima Lock or Lins Lock from. The latter two are great as they don't require the same degree of control as a toe hold to finish and have to be respected so at worse the leg is going to be moved out of the way of a pass at least temporarily to defend. You can easily switch between attacking pass and sub or vice-versa without really giving up position with them.

I'd love to see somebody who actually knows jiu-jitsu do a set on it or develop a system though.

garry tonon kind of does it because he ends up in leg lock scrambles very often. I think you can find matches where he takes the back from failed leg locks but the truth is that most people won't give away a leg lock for a simple pass.If I have a secure leg lock ima try to finish the sub, a transition via leg lock should be fast that's why the standing leg locks work for you because you don't have to interweave your legs and you move only half of your body , if a 50\50 position is achieved you will need momentum to get up so the motion has to be non-stop or you can roll under and go for the back, I guess.
 
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I've looked for years and there is surprisingly little out there on combining them to in any detail. I've also asked people like Roli Delgado, Cavaca and Norbi Nowak specific questions at seminars on it too because its so hard to find anyone showing the two fully integrated. Most stuff is along the lines of 'fall back with his leg, better stand up to pass if you can't tap him'.

I'm sure you've already seen it too, but just to name the most obvious, Reilly Bodycomb's Top Rock 2 (Top Rock 1 has similar themes, but isn't as pass intensive) is directly about this topic. It's pretty much nothing but passing directly from leg entanglement positions rather than standing up and restarting. I know there are certain people on here that give him massive shit (both for being a middling level competitor (fair), and for his past personality (unfair)), but it is a direct answer to your question. For example, he shows a decision tree where you start in a modified inside sankaku, your opponent defends in a specific manner, so you weave your leg and pass to knee on belly.

Also, be patient! Now that leg locks are the nogi meta (in no gi, at least, until the IBJJF mans up and allows Gi heel hooks), we're going to see leg defenses rise, so transitioning from guard-->leg entanglement --> transition to top control/back will hopefully be the next meta, and then all the high level competitors and geniuses will figure it out for us working class bums. It'd happen faster, but people are fine entangling, losing position, looking for a re-tangle, and lasting until overtime to be automatically gifted back control, which takes the incentive away. Thankfully the ADCC is still a thing.

garry tonon kind of does it because he ends up in leg lock scrambles very often. I think you can find matches where he takes the back from failed leg locks but the truth is that most people won't give away a leg lock for a simple pass.If I have a secure leg lock ima try to finish the sub, a transition via leg lock should be fast that's why the standing leg locks work for you because you don't have to interweave your legs and you move only half of your body , if a 50\50 position is achieved you will need momentum to get up so the motion has to be non-stop or you can roll under and go for the back, I guess.

I see that being how things are now, but not forever. Just because you've gotten into the beginning phases of an armbar position doesn't mean you'd hold on to the bitter end and give up the pass. Once you know enough about the positioning to say "Shit, this is a lost cause, I gotta do something else" (a phase we're just now entering meaningfully with leg attacks), you're going to start looking for options. You can transition back to open guard (the equivalent of just restarting passing from a failed leg attempt, which is a skill in and of itself, to maintain top control after a failed leg attempt, which will probably be cultivated first), or you can use the position you have to effectuate some manner of sweep (getting to side control or back directly from leg entanglement) or use your opponent's defense to transition to a more advantageous guard (coming out of a leg entanglement into the early stages of a guard pass). Then we start moving to full integration, where we know exactly what body postures lead to an efficient situation for a pass or a leg lock, and have mapped out decision trees, and it becomes boring and something new happens. It's like berimbolos. They were "the thing." Then reliable counters or preventions were found, but then that led to other opportunities that ended up being exploited. Now it's a cohesive system; there will always be specialists, of course, but the general populace (and usually people who become GOATs rather than kings for a day) will understand EXACTLY when the opponent's body is in the best configuration to employ that previous instant win button (as otherwise you'll just get countered if you blindly spam it), and it becomes just another tool within your guard system, to be used when your opponent is in a certain posture. You see it with everything in BJJ, because it's still growing. Believe it or not, there was a time where Spider Guard was such an "I win!" button (or, to be more precise, an "I can't lose!" button) in BJJ that there was an outcry to ban the position. Happened with 50/50 too. Everyone's gameplan turned into "spam spider (or 50/50) and win because it's fucking magic." Nowadays consistent high level players just use these positions tactically, at the best moments possible to use them, and once it's time to move to a more advantageous entanglement, they do that.

You find undiscovered land, and it's fucking great. But then people start learning the outer edges of where the technique starts to fail, until you hit a defined area where you can see pretty clearly where the failure and success markers are. Then you gameplan accordingly.
 
garry tonon kind of does it because he ends up in leg lock scrambles very often. I think you can find matches where he takes the back from failed leg locks but the truth is that most people won't give away a leg lock for a simple pass.If I have a secure leg lock ima try to finish the sub, a transition via leg lock should be fast that's why the standing leg locks work for you because you don't have to interweave your legs and you move only half of your body , if a 50\50 position is achieved you will need momentum to get up so the motion has to be non-stop or you can roll under and go for the back, I guess.
I think from entangled positions it's certainly still a case its only a last resort to pass or used when it becomes a scramble like you said.

In the case of Heel Hooks people definitely won't want to give up attacking the sub to pass often because in recent times it is such a high percentage finishing position if you know what you are doing. Right now the DDS, Giles & Jones and others have brought the attacking game on so far beyond most peoples' defensive games there is little incentive to. In time though that may change; if you think of the IBJJF-legal stuff people will readily bail on ankle locks, toe-holds and knee bar attempts from leg entanglements when it quickly becomes clear the other guy is capable of defending the attack very well. I feel in the next few years there will likely be far bigger payoff for transitioning to a pass from a leg entanglement when everyone is better at defending the modern heel hook game and its no longer so high percentage.

From open guard, passing positions and leg entanglements i feel there is definitely a way to combine entries to attack and passes seamlessly in a way where you're funnelling them down a path you have already mapped out. They're constantly presented with the choice between giving their foot or preventing the pass and you're happy to go either way knowing you have already led them wherever they end up. You're getting a good leg locking position or a pass and likely a good finishing position for something else you're good at if you're herding them a particular direction so you're happy to switch back and forth between both options however you originally got started.

I have lots of ideas in my head, just not the skill to turn them into something systematic but i can see it happening in the future. Next you mix in things like single leg takedowns and guard pulls in to those combined leg lock entry/pass attacks and suddenly its all a very integrated game that flows between sweeps, passing, leg locks and standing. Sorry for all the text, it's something grappling related i'm totally intrigued by and feel is a big un-tapped space ;-)
 
I have lots of ideas in my head, just not the skill to turn them into something systematic but i can see it happening in the future.

As you can see, I also love waxing on and on, but I've finally come to realize (painfully) that being able to answer "why" doesn't mean you can answer "well what next?" You just have to either A) Wait for the meta to change (hopefully to your area of interest, instead of something awful like worm guard), or B) spend enough time on the mats, specifically drilling from these positions, looking for the options or smallest level details to get to an "AHA!" moment. Once you get that initial AHA!, I think analysis kicks in and you can generalize it, integrate it, etc. I guess that's why being a trailblazer is noteworthy, is because it's so fucking hard. It's why Marcelo Garcia is the most remarkable dude I can think of. He revolutionized guard play, sweeps, back attacks (both the position and the crucifix), guillotines, n/s chokes, and guard passing over the course of his career. I can't really imagine what it would be like to revolutionize one area, much less essentially all of them, consistently over the course of years, against the best opponents in the world, whether or not they have a size advantage. Just blows me away. It's what happens when genius meets tireless hard work/dedication, I guess.

...but that's why I'm training for 20 metas down the road, which is going to be grappling in a situation with no gravity (i.e., in space). Hopefully I'll have an AHA! moment before that point and I can just bide my time to deploy it, and then I'll just wipe the fucking floor with everyone with my spacejitsu.
 
I'm sure you've already seen it too, but just to name the most obvious, Reilly Bodycomb's Top Rock 2 (Top Rock 1 has similar themes, but isn't as pass intensive) is directly about this topic.
I've seen it and also Seph Smith's one on going from failed Ashi to leg drag to give it a simple description. Both were helpful and interesting to see specific situations covered, i've shamelessly taken stuff from them both and patched it in to my own sketchy game plan i'm trying to develop ;-)

Your reply to George sounds similar to the one i was typing at the same time, i agree its going to follow a similar path to things like the Berimbolo and eventually entanglements will just become part of a wider attacking picture rather than almost guaranteed finishes. The evolution is the guy who leg locks & passes seamlessly, throwing both at you constantly forcing you in to picking what you feel is the lesser of two evils as you try to recover guard. From the entanglements there has to be a way to enter and perform this kind of funnelling kind of like a more developed version of what Reilly and Seph have done so far.

Great having some discussions on it with with you both, really interesting hearing other peoples ideas on the same thing.
 
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Maybe people will also start defending leg locks via guard passes, currently leg lock defenses lead to a scramble where the opponent can retake the leg lock position. I don't have that dvd of reily bodycomb so I don't know what you're talking about. Anyway we should make a separate thread because kestling will headlock us for spamming his dvd thread. You could make a gif or two of bodycomb doing these moves if u like.
 
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I've seen it and also Seph Smith's one on going from failed Ashi to leg drag to give it a simple description. Both were helpful and interesting to see specific situations covered, i've shamelessly taken stuff from them both and patched it in to my own sketchy game plan i'm trying to develop ;-)

Your reply to George sounds similar to the one i was typing at the same time, i agree its going to follow a similar path to things like the Berimbolo and eventually entanglements will just become part of a wider attacking picture rather than almost guaranteed finishes. The evolution is the guy who leg locks & passes seamlessly, throwing both at you constantly forcing you in to picking what you feel is the lesser of two evils as you try to recover guard. From the entanglements there is maybe

Great having some discussions on it with with you both, really interesting hearing other peoples ideas on the same thing.

For better or for worse it's a slow work day, so not much else to do than look out the window and think about jiu jitsu!

What's going to be really interesting is how far the ripples will go now that the mainstream has finally accepted leg locks into the game. I fully agree that it'll likely get to a point where the approach to lower body control will be a decision tree that leads to a leg sub, or a pass to side/back/whatever. What's weird about leg locks, though, is that you can enter from top and bottom.

So as getting into this decision tree becomes a more powerful option, both top players and bottom players are going to find and refine more and more leg entries (already happening: see the jump from the non-existence of reverse x-guard to inside sankaku to being a modern leg lock staple within the recent past). Top game plan is going to be packed with moves that either (or both) negate the bottom player's ability to get to the leg control universe and promote their own use, and bottom game is going to play guards that either (or both) negate the top player's ability to get into the leg control universe, and promote their own entry into it. Who knows whether it'll happen in turn taking jumps or as a paralell growth. Then you're going to have a new meta that forms from these new systems playing against each other. Some guards/passes become less popular because they present fewer options for you (or start to fill only a very specific niche, at a very specific time, ala the Tozi pass). Jiu jitsu looks totally different than how it does today.

My dream then is that, at this point, people get really, really tired or bored of all this, or seek another optional game plan to get them where they need to be, and that's the takedown game. Being able to go from standing directly into side control and bypass all of that bullshit becomes more appealing. A new takedown meta that abuses the nearly freeform ruleset for standing takedowns in BJJ (while also not getting submitted, obviously) emerges. Either that, or certain guards will be adapted/improvised to fight back against this approach, a new bottom-guard meta emerges that helps stabilize the madness. Hopefully the former.

Takedowns become the new jam. Standing leg entries get integrated. The integration of sambo/judo in gi and free or folkstyle/Greco in no gi becomes more complete (sorta happening, but not much). A series of metal are established. Standing fringe subs may enter the fray.

How the meta progresses from there, would be more integration. Defending guard passing with funk is more normal. Standing up becomes a viable tactic, so you can take them down INTO the previous material. People may pull guard against these standing opponents, but they may start pulling into bad positions susceptible to the pass/submit game.

Where it goes after that? Who knows!
 
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A very simple move from 50/50 would be to grab both ankles of the opponent (far arm to far ankle then as you get up near arm interweaving near leg from the outside) and do a technical stand up going to side control half way. Try it and tell me if it works for you.
 
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I wonder does anybody uses leglock positions as transitions to guard passes?

i think you have to, especially in the gi. two of my favorites:

1. from standard single x outside ankle lock position; opp grabs your gi with no intention of letting go; pass ankle over (while continuing to signal footlock threat); sit up into a deep leg drag

2. knee slice to backstep; from backstep stay standing where you're posting hand on opp's chest and outside foot on mat; with other hand threaten leg entry by fighting for 'kneebar trap' grip (hooking foot arch sticking out of figure four) or 'double trouble' grip (outside ankle grip to saddle entry); if opp brings legs tight to defend kneebar or saddle, pummel near side underhook and step back over; you will be in a very strong knee slicing position with goal of getting your head to the mat
 
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