Opinion At what point can a Sodier be Blamed for their actions ? And

[SugarKrok]

At what point is a victim of coercion blameless for their actions?

I was just thinking about the nazi soldiers who were prosecuted for ww2. I think some were because things they did went beyond ‘war’ and into cruelty and unreasonable suffering. Also, I guess since targeting people for religion/race/etc as justification for killing is considered wholly wrong now. Now being the relevant part I suppose…since our prosecution of the dead is to condemn their actions in the present.

Anyway, I just realize while a little high that I answered the solider question. Well, I guess that’s just my answer and I want to hear others.

I’m a chatty bit short when high, huh. Is it possible to answer the 2nd question??? I feel like there’s no line is there?

 

[mozfonky]

At what point is a victim of coercion blameless for their actions?

I was just thinking about the nazi soldiers who were prosecuted for ww2. I think some were because things they did went beyond ‘war’ and into cruelty and unreasonable suffering. Also, I guess since targeting people for religion/race/etc as justification for killing is considered wholly wrong now. Now being the relevant part I suppose…since our prosecution of the dead is to condemn their actions in the present.

Anyway, I just realize while a little high that I answered the solider question. Well, I guess that’s just my answer and I want to hear others.

I’m a chatty bit short when high, huh. Is it possible to answer the 2nd question??? I feel like there’s no line is there?

for me? Always, but I've always been someone who just could not conform to anything or anyone, much to the bitter enmity of some of the male figures of my past. But, always, you are always responsible for what you do.

 

[tenniswhiz]

Can we apply the same standards to US soldiers who “defended their country” by serving in Iraq?
Spare me the “omg you’re comparing the USA to Nazi Germany” BS.
Lots of countries have WMD. The USA doesn’t war with them all. Iraqi turned out not to have shit anyway.
Over a million dead Iraqis because of that war, and millions more displaced and suffering.

 

[mjfan23]

It depends on the solider (ours or some else’s)

 

[moreorless87]

Can we apply the same standards to US soldiers who “defended their country” by serving in Iraq?
Spare me the “omg you’re comparing the USA to Nazi Germany” BS.
Lots of countries have WMD. The USA doesn’t war with them all. Iraqi turned out not to have shit anyway.
Over a million dead Iraqis because of that war, and millions more displaced and suffering.

Under current international law I don't think US soldiers could be prosecuted just for serving in Iraq even if the invasion itself were considered illegal.

Those making the decisions, specifically Bush and Blair could be though.

 

[Cole train]

Under current international law I don't think US soldiers could be prosecuted just for serving in Iraq even if the invasion itself were considered illegal.

Those making the decisions, specifically Bush and Blair could be though.

Soldiers cant be prosecuted for serving in a war, they can get jugded for stuff they did during the war but i have never heard just service getting you in front of a court. I actually think international laws protect single soldier when it comes to this

Politicians take the hit if they can be physically captured or killed

 

[Mike]

for me? Always, but I've always been someone who just could not conform to anything or anyone, much to the bitter enmity of some of the male figures of my past. But, always, you are always responsible for what you do.

This is part of why I didn't enlist back in he early 00s. I didn't think the wars we were waging were justified and didn't want blood on my hands. Some of my friends did go and they came back with PTSD from the people they had to kill over there, and from watching their friends get blown up. I'm glad I didn't go.

 

[Two Crows]

C'mon.

Many, and most in history, armies/soldiers are/were conscripted.
That means they didn't join voluntarily, they were forced to be there in the first place.

Say, for example, you have a wife and child. You are given an order. You refuse that order. What do you think happens?

For reference, refusing an order during war-time in the USA constitutes grounds for your commanding officer to potentially shoot you (or have you shot).

On the other hand, even obeying orders, you can (and may be) tried for various crimes.

Soldiers are frequently scape-goats for those in a position of authority. I don't believe they should be blameless for personal decisions of monstrosity, but I DO believe the penalties they faced from those in power above them should mitigate any acts they are evaluated for.

Examples:

If the CO orders the unit "occupy" the village, and they kill every man, woman, and child they see, I agree they are criminals.

If the CO orders they kill "every living thing they see, (because they are all THE ENEMY", then I believe the soldiers are not the proper targets of prosecution, but rather the commanders.
https://famous-trials.com/mylaicourts/1656-myl-intro
(EDIT: I posted this quickly, don't read if you want to avoid the ugly aspect of humanity, such as child murder. I wish I had not read it myself.)

 

[mozfonky]

This is part of why I didn't enlist back in he early 00s. I didn't think the wars we were waging were justified and didn't want blood on my hands. Some of my friends did go and they came back with PTSD from the people they had to kill over there, and from watching their friends get blown up. I'm glad I didn't go.

i don't understand why people still sign up. I feel for vets who come back damaged, I can't be apathetic, but it's not like most of it was out of their control. Sure, there is a time to fight and all but a lot of the stuff people are signing up for, at least in my lifetime (and even stuff like Vietnam which was going on before i was born) have been bullshit wars.

 

[Mike]

i don't understand why people still sign up. I feel for vets who come back damaged, I can't be apathetic, but it's not like most of it was out of their control. Sure, there is a time to fight and all but a lot of the stuff people are signing up for, at least in my lifetime (and even stuff like Vietnam which was going on before i was born) have been bullshit wars.

I've had three different guys in friend groups over the years that came back with all these horrible stories. All had drinking problems too. Got drunk enough and all the nasty stuff they had to see and do would come pouring out. I always felt bad for them but at the same time thought why did you go?

Did you believe all the patriotic propaganda about spreading freedom or whatever? Because even as a young man I absolutely did not and didn't believe what they were telling us.

But it was a different time back then people were more patriotic and trusting of government. Also not a lot of opportunities for young men in a lot of cities.

 

[tastaylvr]

Can we apply the same standards to US soldiers who “defended their country” by serving in Iraq?
Spare me the “omg you’re comparing the USA to Nazi Germany” BS.
Lots of countries have WMD. The USA doesn’t war with them all. Iraqi turned out not to have shit anyway.
Over a million dead Iraqis because of that war, and millions more displaced and suffering.

I consider anyone who joins the army in the same vein as extremists who fight for their cause tbh. They both join for the same reasons.

“Defending your country” is a weird excuse while you are flying across the world to slaughter people in “defence”.

 

[Mike Hagger]

This might be one of the most ignorant threads with ridiculous replies I’ve seen on Sherdog. It started dumb and the stupid just kept it going.

 

[moreorless87]

This is part of why I didn't enlist back in he early 00s. I didn't think the wars we were waging were justified and didn't want blood on my hands. Some of my friends did go and they came back with PTSD from the people they had to kill over there, and from watching their friends get blown up. I'm glad I didn't go.

To be honest I suspect this is part of why a lot of militaries struggle to get recruits, places like the UK I think they'd have much less issue if the army genuinely was a purely defencive force and people didnt think they were going to be sent on some morally dubious necolonalist adventure which could result in their killing civilians and/or being killed themselves.

 

[Michaelangelo]

Can we get TS some help pls?

Mods send him to rehab

 

[lifelessheap]

Under current international law I don't think US soldiers could be prosecuted just for serving in Iraq even if the invasion itself were considered illegal.

Those making the decisions, specifically Bush and Blair could be though.

Adolf Eichmann was put to death for scheduling trains.

 

[mozfonky]

I've had three different guys in friend groups over the years that came back with all these horrible stories. All had drinking problems too. Got drunk enough and all the nasty stuff they had to see and do would come pouring out. I always felt bad for them but at the same time thought why did you go?

Did you believe all the patriotic propaganda about spreading freedom or whatever? Because even as a young man I absolutely did not and didn't believe what they were telling us.

But it was a different time back then people were more patriotic and trusting of government. Also not a lot of opportunities for young men in a lot of cities.

I always hear the reason given that "there aren't any jobs" in smaller, poorer communities. I once asked my aunt why my father joined the service during ww2, she just said, "to get out of Eagle" which was his village. Did it work out for him? I dont' know, he left the boredom and poverty of his village, and if it was ww2, he probably would have been drafted anyways, but I never understood why my own folks were just so eager to go dress up in some uniform and fight someone else's war, it wasn't just my dad.

If it were me, ww2 was some serious shit, I think we had some valid reasons to be there, I wouldn't have been too conflicted about fighting in that one but it just seemed to me that my people just didn't put a lot of thought into any of that. My father went through alot of trauma in the service, not the least of which was a bar fight in the philippines during the Korean war (one which I'm not clear why we were there) where he sustained a lot of brain damage. The combat he went through he used to confuse me because he'd talk about the service fondly, "best years of my life" and then, if I'd ask sometime about the army, "I don't want to talk about it". So, I knew he went through and saw some shit.

I don't think we've had a draft in ages so for people to go voluntarily sign up, I just think maybe they are just not too bright. Or, maybe they just come from a different part of the country. I do realize the rural places of our country, the people are very different, you might say they are slower but they do not seem to be the type to really analyze things. (the city people don't either really, but I think they are still generally more thoughtful).

 

[mozfonky]

Adolf Eichmann was put to death for scheduling trains.

Noam Chomsky thinks most of our presidents could be tried for war crimes. Vincent Bugliosi thought George Jr. should be jailed. But your point is valid, in ww2 they actually got a lot of those Nazi leaders, and even some of the guys who did brutal shit in the CC camps and hung them, they didn't fuck around.

 

[Blayt7hh]

This might be one of the most ignorant threads with ridiculous replies I’ve seen on Sherdog. It started dumb and the stupid just kept it going.

Yeah I’m honestly kind of floored by just how astonishingly dumb this thread is. I think I’ll just peace out on this one. Maybe I’ll just come back to check and see if any of them figured out how to research if being a soldier in a war is illegal

Hint for all the winners in this thread: being a soldier isn’t what got the Nasis that were tried into trouble

 

[WhiteMousse]

Difficult and nuanced conversation.

One thing I'd hope most would agree with is that the people who are sending soldiers to do things are far too removed from the decisions they're making.

 

[mozfonky]

Can we apply the same standards to US soldiers who “defended their country” by serving in Iraq?
Spare me the “omg you’re comparing the USA to Nazi Germany” BS.
Lots of countries have WMD. The USA doesn’t war with them all. Iraqi turned out not to have shit anyway.
Over a million dead Iraqis because of that war, and millions more displaced and suffering.

that really was bullshit, I don't understand how they get so many people to go over and do that shit. I really don't. I do know that people do get brainwashed, Ive seen close friends change, not in major ways, like, stockholm's syndrome, with their employers or their wives, so, I know that happens. I did know an soldier from that era, he seemed to absolutely have contempt for the people there. Nice guy but I think he was a bit brainwashed. But if you don't hand yourself over to those leaders in the first place they won't even get to that point with you.