Dealing with violent Thugs/Meatheads in BJJ gyms

[FightGuyOpenMind]

That shows me that some people are just violent and go into places with bad intentions. I didn't read your text, are you implying that these Yogi's antagonized/escalated the situation?

I had heard that some of the Yogi's tried to fight to stop him shooting, maybe not quickly enough, unfortunately. If this instructor had been there and acted immediately like it sounds like he did here, lives may have been saved, who knows. I do know this guy deserved to have his teeth taken out too, maybe it would have woke him up instead of letting him continue to build up steam/confidence to the point that he can take others lives.

The text I presented offered a quick breakdown of what happened and a link to an article for further reading.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

I think you just don’t understand the situation, and weren’t there so best to leave it at that.

If he had let him drill with other students with a purple belt keeping an eye on him as you suggest - there is a good chance students would have been seriously hurt. The guy had issues and came in looking for a fight. It’s very easy to say what someone should have done from the comfort of a keyboard on the internet- it’s very different making split second reactions when you and your students are at risk (after you have already been assaulted).

"The guy had issues and came in looking for a fight."

So you're agreeing to engage him on his level as the instructor did?

As far as my credibility to comment I think I have some because I have been responsible for the lives of those under my charge. I am thinking of the risk with them in mind.

After explaining to the guy our program I would invite him to participate in our program. We would not try to accommodate his ambitions and react to him.

Either you can do as we are doing or you can leave. Otherwise we have situations where we enter the unexpected, as was shown here. They reacted to him instead of getting him involved with what they were doing.

 

[NSchoke]

He could have shown him the curriculum of the gym, and invited him to practice drills with everyone else and participate in the class they were having.

He could have had one of his senior purple belts try to mentor the guy, and keep an eye on him during practice. Perhaps after going through the drilling and warm ups the testosterone level would have simmered down, and he would have been a bit too tired to go through with his original ambitions. He may have gained an understanding and respect he didn't have previously walking into the gym.

If he couldn't get with the environment after that then he could have just been asked to leave. If force was needed at that point then I would not have been a critic. However, from the account that I had he asked him what he would do "on the street". What street? Are we on concrete, this is a BJJ class.

When you entertain that "street" element you should be prepared for what comes with it.....the unknown. You don't know this guy, you don't know his history. If any of his students had a problem with it and couldn't understand a reasonable explanation well screw them. Are they going to pay to replace the things lost? Are they going to have to explain to families what happened? Are they going to go through the commercial property claims process with you? I would just evaluate the risk v reward.

I thought it was a poor decision personally for a number of reasons.

Yeah, those aren't options. You had a guy who came in looking to be violent. He literally attacked someone out of nowhere for no reason.

You could either hide, become a victim or take control.

And entertaining a "street" element, how conducting business? It does seem like they were very prepared and I don't hear anyone complaining. I'd imagine there be many more complaints if the "guest" was allowed to take charge.

 

[Nik123]

"The guy had issues and came in looking for a fight."

So you're agreeing to engage him on his level as the instructor did?

As far as my credibility to comment I think I have some because I have been responsible for the lives of those under my charge. I am thinking of the risk with them in mind.

After explaining to the guy our program I would invite him to participate in our program. We would not try to accommodate his ambitions and react to him.

Either you can do as we are doing or you can leave. Otherwise we have situations where we enter the unexpected, as was shown here. They reacted to him instead of getting him involved with what they were doing.

I think the major point you are missing here is hindsight. It’s very easy to sit back after the event and say it should have been done differently. As they say - hindsight is always 20/20.

And you are giving suggestions to Roger Gracie’s academy and instructors, who see hundreds of students come through the door, and everyone follows a basic format of instruction. They know whey they are doing. It’s one of the biggest and best bjj academies on the planet.

This guy came in for a basic introduction class, where you are shown basic moves and you get your questions answered. Asking the instructor what works and doesn’t on the street is perfectly normal and in no way what started this.

What started this was the guy punching the instructor repeatedly on the back of the head. Even at that point he was simply asked to leave.

He then came back to try and continue his assault. Nobody knew his intentions beforehand, which is why it’s very easy to say ‘shoulda coulda woulda’ in hindsight.

No flowery words or gentle talk would have soothed this guy. He had to be stopped, restrained, and removed. Which is what happened.

You say you ‘think of the risks to those under your charge’. And then you suggest a mentally ill giant looking to cause bodily harm should be left to drill with smaller students with a purple belt watching over him??

There is a reason the cops arrested him, and not the instructor.

I think you are making half baked points with half baked knowledge of the situation, and should stop - you weren’t there and are in no position to say what the instructor should and shouldn’t have done.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

Yeah, those aren't options. You had a guy who came in looking to be violent. He literally attacked someone out of nowhere for no reason.

You could either hide, become a victim or take control.

And entertaining a "street" element, how conducting business? It does seem like they were very prepared and I don't hear anyone complaining. I'd imagine there be many more complaints if the "guest" was allowed to take charge.

Based on the account of someone who claims they were there who posted in this forum he did not attack out of nowhere and was invited to try.

Instead of extending an invitation I would have again presented our gym curriculum and invited him to train with us, and have him drill and roll with one of our advanced students while I was able to observe him and the situation. That is our gym taking charge.

 

[NSchoke]

"The guy had issues and came in looking for a fight."

So you're agreeing to engage him on his level as the instructor did?

As far as my credibility to comment I think I have some because I have been responsible for the lives of those under my charge. I am thinking of the risk with them in mind.

After explaining to the guy our program I would invite him to participate in our program. We would not try to accommodate his ambitions and react to him.

Either you can do as we are doing or you can leave. Otherwise we have situations where we enter the unexpected, as was shown here. They reacted to him instead of getting him involved with what they were doing.

What do you think the yoga place that you linked did?

 

[Nik123]

Based on the account of someone who claims they were there who posted in this forum he did not attack out of nowhere and was invited to try.

Instead of extending an invitation I would have again presented our gym curriculum and invited him to train with us, and have him drill and roll with one of our advanced students while I was able to observe him and the situation. That is our gym taking charge.

‘Extending an invitation’ to train with students would have resulted in students getting seriously hurt.

Seriously - thats your solution? In that case it’s fortunate for all there that you were not in charge.

It’s perfectly normal for an instructor to show you a move in response to a question to show a student something. What is not normal is punching the instructor.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

I think the major point you are missing here is hindsight. It’s very easy to sit back after the event and say it should have been done differently. As they say - hindsight is always 20/20.

And you are giving suggestions to Roger Gracie’s academy and instructors, who see hundreds of students come through the door, and everyone follows a basic format of instruction. They know whey they are doing. It’s one of the biggest and best bjj academies on the planet.

This guy came in for a basic introduction class, where you are shown basic moves and you get your questions answered. Asking the instructor what works and doesn’t on the street is perfectly normal and in no way what started this.

What started this was the guy punching the instructor repeatedly on the back of the head. Even at that point he was simply asked to leave.

He then came back to try and continue his assault. Nobody knew his intentions beforehand, which is why it’s very easy to say ‘shoulda coulda woulda’ in hindsight.

No flowery words or gentle talk would have soothed this guy. He had to be stopped, restrained, and removed. Which is what happened.

There is a reason the cops arrested him, and not the instructor.

I think you are making half baked points with half baked knowledge of the situation, and should stop - you weren’t there and are in no position to say what the instructor should and shouldn’t have done.

The instructor did not have the experience in a situation that he invited. The situation got away from them.

Hindsight is 20/20 but having been through situations I would have not entertained the matter especially with a new student and not having knowledge of him nor his history.

I would not have invited this guy fresh off the street to swing on me. The way the information was originally presented made it appear to be a challenge. That is the bravado circulating. Now, the instructor was defending himself from rabbit punches?

I have said I would be in support of self defense but not instigating.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

‘Extending an invitation’ to train with students would have resulted in students getting seriously hurt.

Seriously - thats your solution? In that case it’s fortunate for all there that you were not in charge.

It’s perfectly normal for an instructor to show you a move in response to a question to show a student something. What is not normal is punching the instructor.

If I would have invited him to participate in grappling and drilling grappling moves while I, a black belt am watching, I would have got my senior purple belt hurt? Sounds like an unreasonable assertion.

 

[Nik123]

The instructor did not have the experience in a situation that he invited. The situation got away from them.

Hindsight is 20/20 but having been through situations I would have not entertained the matter especially with a new student and not having knowledge of him nor his history.

I would not have invited this guy fresh off the street to swing on me. The way the information was originally presented made it appear to be a challenge. That is the bravado circulating. Now, the instructor was defending himself from rabbit punches?

I have said I would be in support of self defense but not instigating.

Look I think it’s clear that not many people agree with your take on the issue, so I’m going to leave it at that.

You are entitled to your opinion- but that’s all it is, your opinion. And now that you have invested in it you feel you need to defend it, I get that. The fact that nobody here agrees with you just shows that it’s not that clear cut a case as you think it is. And that in itself proves that it’s not easy to judge what the instructor should or shouldn’t have done - especially if you were not there.

 

[Nik123]

If I would have invited him to participate in grappling and drilling grappling moves while I, a black belt am watching, I would have got my senior purple belt hurt? Sounds like an unreasonable assertion.

Again, you were not there. Your proposed solution would have achieved nothing except get students hurt - possibly badly. If a guy is happy to punch an instructor and then continue the attack after being told to leave - I don’t think it’s an ‘unreasonable assertion’ that he could do the same if not worse to smaller, less capable students.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

Look I think it’s clear that not many people agree with your take on the issue, so I’m going to leave it at that.

You are entitled to your opinion- but that’s all it is, your opinion. And now that you have invested in it you feel you need to defend it, I get that. The fact that nobody here agrees with you just shows that it’s not that clear cut a case as you think it is. And that in itself proves that it’s not easy to judge what the instructor should or shouldn’t have done - especially if you were not there.

Bandwagon fallacy lol

 

[Nik123]

Bandwagon fallacy lol

Whatever helps you sleep better at night.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

Again, you were not there. Your proposed solution would have achieved nothing except get students hurt - possibly badly. If a guy is happy to punch an instructor and then continue the attack after being told to leave - I don’t think it’s an ‘unreasonable assertion’ that he could do the same if not worse to smaller, less capable students.

After presenting him with what our training for the day would be if he was not okay with it I would have asked him to leave. If he had became rough with my oh so defenseless purple belt in rolling (not fighting) then I would have asked him to leave. Defending myself from there is fair game.

I would not invite a new student to swing on me.

At the very least that sounds better when explaining to police, insurance companies, families, than he asked what would happen on the street and I invited him to swing. It's a BJJ academy after all.

 

[Nik123]

After presenting him with what our training for the day would be if he was not okay with it I would have asked him to leave. If he had became rough with my oh so defenseless purple belt in rolling (not fighting) then I would have asked him to leave. Defending myself from there is fair game.

I would not invite a new student to swing on me.

At the very least that sounds better when explaining to police, insurance companies, families, than he asked what would happen on the street and I invited him to swing. It's a BJJ academy after all.

Lol just stop. You would have done nothing except get punched, and let other students get injured. Your proposed solution would simply not have worked. And ultimately I don’t think anyone at RGA cares what you think or would have done. I’m honestly going to leave it at that.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

Whatever helps you sleep better at night.

You made the unsound argument not me, you're the one seemingly bothered in this debate not me. Even when there are those who appeared to be trying to attack my person (ad hominem lol) I kept my cool mostly.

We are anonymous on a public forum, you don't know what I've experienced. BJJ accolades are amazing and respect the instructors, but that does not make them experts on all forms of violence and encounters. I think it could have been handled better. I'm fine with it all I sleep okay.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

Lol just stop. You would have done nothing except get punched, and let other students get injured. Your proposed solution would simply not have worked. And ultimately I don’t think anyone at RGA cares what you think or would have done. I’m honestly going to leave it at that.

I'm okay with getting punched. I boxed before I ever went into a BJJ academy. My solution was not tested, so we have no evidence to say it would not have worked. We saw what did happen and are reflecting. It's called an After Actions Report. We analyze, then provide solutions for moving forward. RGA doesn't have to care, and I don't have to pay their premium if goes up. So, fair enough.

 

[Nik123]

You made the unsound argument not me, you're the one seemingly bothered in this debate not me. Even when there are those who appeared to be trying to attack my person (ad hominem lol) I kept my cool mostly.

We are anonymous on a public forum, you don't know what I've experienced. BJJ accolades are amazing and respect the instructors, but that does not make them experts on all forms of violence and encounters. I think it could have been handled better. I'm fine with it all I sleep okay.

I think it’s highly debatable who is making the unsound argument here. Highly debatable. And nothing I have said has been ad hominem - I have presented you with a clear rationale with the benefit of actually being there - as to why your proposed solution would simply not work. Now instead of going back and forth with you - I will let you have the last word as that does seem quite important to you.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

I think it’s highly debatable who is making the unsound argument here. Highly debatable. And nothing I have said has been ad hominem - I have presented you with a clear rationale with the benefit of actually being there - as to why your proposed solution would simply not work. Now instead of going back and forth with you - I will let you have the last word as that does seem quite important to you.

I never said you made the ad hominem, please re read what I posted. I said you tried to use a bandwagon to basically shun me from my stance due to it being allegedly unpopular because it fit your end goal. I am creating my stance based on information that you provided with the punch invitation by the instructor. Again, you were the one who said you were done with me a couple of posts ago so maybe the last word is important to you and your masses that support you. lol

 

[TheGZA]

I've lived there before.

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