Ethnicity and Muslims in Europe - The numbers

[bushman505]

No references, no explanation, no example of mainstream scholarly understanding of a word you found on some right wing site.

I’ll take your post as an admission of your failure and inability to to prove your point.

Look the word up you stupid dishonest motherfucker. Taqqiya means that it’s completely acceptable to lie to non Muslims in order to get what you need from them.

Right wing site??? Fuck off if you want to start playing that game.

 

[Kindacrazy]

I leave for a few weeks, and this is the shit I come back to? Where to even begin with this idiocy.

I don't know if you are honestly looking into this stuff or just a partisan hack @Sano, but your posts are terrible.

But lets start with Fazz, here

No references, no explanation, no example of mainstream scholarly understanding of a word you found on some right wing site.

I’ll take your post as an admission of your failure and inability to to prove your point.

Are you seriously trying to deny the many places in Islamic religious doctrine when they state directly that being dishonest is ok?


Quran
Quran (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.
Quran (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim may appear friendly to non-Muslims, even though they should not feel friendly.

Quran (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths is with pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway. (The next verse refers only to those who have a personal agreement with Muhammad as individuals - see Ibn Kathir vol 4, p 49)

Quran (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you the dissolution of your oaths..."

Quran (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who had to "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Quran (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts"

Quran (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means 'deceit'. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.

Hadith and Sira
Sahih Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed companions by Muhammad's men after they were "guaranteed" safe passage (see Additional Notes below).

Sahih Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar." Lying is permitted when the end justifies the means.

Sahih Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permitted in order to deceive an "enemy." The Quran defines the 'enemy' as "disbelievers" (4:101).

Sahih Muslim (32:6303) - "...he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them)."

Sahih Bukhari (50:369) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered.

From Islamic Law:

Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) - "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression... (See the Permissible Lying section on the Sharia page for more)

"One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie."

I don't know if you seriously believe the stupidity that you have been spouting, but this stuff isn't even denied by anyone familiar with Islam.

 

[Sano]

I leave for a few weeks, and this is the shit I come back to? Where to even begin with this idiocy.

I don't know if you are honestly looking into this stuff or just a partisan hack @Sano, but your posts are terrible.

But lets start with Fazz, here




Are you seriously trying to deny the many places in Israeli religious doctrine when they state directly that being dishonest is ok?


Quran
Quran (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.
Quran (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim may appear friendly to non-Muslims, even though they should not feel friendly.

Quran (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths is with pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway. (The next verse refers only to those who have a personal agreement with Muhammad as individuals - see Ibn Kathir vol 4, p 49)

Quran (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you the dissolution of your oaths..."

Quran (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who had to "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Quran (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts"

Quran (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means 'deceit'. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.

Hadith and Sira
Sahih Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed companions by Muhammad's men after they were "guaranteed" safe passage (see Additional Notes below).

Sahih Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar." Lying is permitted when the end justifies the means.

Sahih Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permitted in order to deceive an "enemy." The Quran defines the 'enemy' as "disbelievers" (4:101).

Sahih Muslim (32:6303) - "...he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them)."

Sahih Bukhari (50:369) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered.

From Islamic Law:

Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) - "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression... (See the Permissible Lying section on the Sharia page for more)

"One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie."

I don't know if you seriously believe the stupidity that you have been spouting, but this stuff isn't even denied by anyone familiar with Islam.

I oppose Islam, and any organised religion really, so I wont be defending it and that conversation you'll have to have with Fazz.

You'll have to expand on your point a little more in regards to the OP. Also, weren't you the guy who said that you'd "never heard Jordan Peterson misspeak about biology and neuroscience" and then didn't respond when I tagged you and wrote a post about how Peterson misspeaks on those subjects all the time?

 

[Ruprecht]

I leave for a few weeks, and this is the shit I come back to? Where to even begin with this idiocy.

I don't know if you are honestly looking into this stuff or just a partisan hack @Sano, but your posts are terrible.

But lets start with Fazz, here




Are you seriously trying to deny the many places in Israeli religious doctrine when they state directly that being dishonest is ok?


Quran
Quran (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.
Quran (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim may appear friendly to non-Muslims, even though they should not feel friendly.

Quran (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths is with pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway. (The next verse refers only to those who have a personal agreement with Muhammad as individuals - see Ibn Kathir vol 4, p 49)

Quran (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you the dissolution of your oaths..."

Quran (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who had to "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Quran (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts"

Quran (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means 'deceit'. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.

Hadith and Sira
Sahih Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed companions by Muhammad's men after they were "guaranteed" safe passage (see Additional Notes below).

Sahih Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar." Lying is permitted when the end justifies the means.

Sahih Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permitted in order to deceive an "enemy." The Quran defines the 'enemy' as "disbelievers" (4:101).

Sahih Muslim (32:6303) - "...he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them)."

Sahih Bukhari (50:369) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered.

From Islamic Law:

Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) - "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression... (See the Permissible Lying section on the Sharia page for more)

"One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie."

I don't know if you seriously believe the stupidity that you have been spouting, but this stuff isn't even denied by anyone familiar with Islam.

Your cut and paste is not the Sunni Muslim interpretation.
Which is why you had to cut and paste it from the anti-muslim site "TheReligionofPeace" rather than any scholarly work on their doctrine or recognised source on the interpretations of the Madhabs.

 

[Ruprecht]

To be fair, I guess you did call it "Israeli religious doctrine".

 

[Kindacrazy]

I oppose Islam, and any organised religion really, so I wont be defending it and that conversation you'll have to have with Fazz.

You'll have to expand on your point a little more in regards to the OP. Also, weren't you the guy who said that you'd "never heard Jordan Peterson misspeak about biology and neuroscience" and then didn't respond when I tagged you and wrote a post about how Peterson misspeaks on those subjects all the time?

I have been out of the country for about a while, I have occasionally read the boards on my phone but I am sure I missed many things. I don't really pay a tremendous amount of attention to Peterson so are you sure it was me? I have said I have never seen him misspeak about Psychology. I will make some searches though.

My problem with your OP is that your sources are EU government sources that have long been discredited. Posting links to statistics about Muslim populations in Europe from official EU sources is easy. It is also flat out wrong. For example in the numbers in France you posted, undocumented immigrants aren't included. An overwhelmingly Muslim and most certainly non-western value holding population that numbers in the millions.

In all of your numbers populations are regularly listed as "German", "Norwegian", or "French". The only thing required to be listed as these ethnicities is having been born in those respective countries.

Your quoting on crime statistics have again been heavily bastardized in virtually all of these nations. In Germany, crimes have regularly been classified as "terrorism" in order to dramatically improve the numbers for immigrant groups. Turks make up more then 5% of the population of Germany but only 1% of the nation as whole is Muslim despite the massive influx of Muslim refugees? I haven't seen numbers this laughably bad since the RAINN statistics were released.

You have posted a massive amount of information here. It is sometimes a tactic of people to flood a discussion with information in order to hide the truth. But I will give the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you are simply trying to improve the quality of discussion and address it as such. Although, obviously I have limited time to spend here.

 

[Kindacrazy]

Your cut and paste is not the Sunni Muslim interpretation.
Which is why you had to cut and paste it from the anti-muslim site "TheReligionofPeace" rather than any scholarly work on their doctrine or recognised source on the interpretations of the Madhabs.

A) it is the interpretation of both Sunni and Shia.
B) Sunni's make up 90% of the worlds Muslims, so it is irrelevant anyways.
C) I did absolutely copy and past it. I did so because it is completely accurate. Your "recognized sources" are bullshit. They are Islamic reformists who nobody listens to. Most consider these reformists to be heretics of the highest order. The people who wrote what you posted aren't even Sunni or Shia they are a members of a minuscule sect which operates essentially completely out of the west and have brought us such gems as, "its not 72 virgins that are promised to martyrs but 72 raisins". Nobody takes them seriously with the exception of far left ideologues who simply don't know any better.

 

[Kindacrazy]

To be fair, I guess you did call it "Israeli religious doctrine".

heh, ya I'm not really a fan of Israeli religious doctrine either. To much attention payed to genetic superiority.

 

[Sano]

I have been out of the country for about a while, I have occasionally read the boards on my phone but I am sure I missed many things. I don't really pay a tremendous amount of attention to Peterson so are you sure it was me? I have said I have never seen him misspeak about Psychology. I will make some searches though.

My problem with your OP is that your sources are EU government sources that have long been discredited. Posting links to statistics about Muslim populations in Europe from official EU sources is easy. It is also flat out wrong. For example in the numbers in France you posted, undocumented immigrants aren't included. An overwhelmingly Muslim and most certainly non-western value holding population that numbers in the millions.

In all of your numbers populations are regularly listed as "German", "Norwegian", or "French". The only thing required to be listed as these ethnicities is having been born in those respective countries.

Your quoting on crime statistics have again been heavily bastardized in virtually all of these nations. In Germany, crimes have regularly been classified as "terrorism" in order to dramatically improve the numbers for immigrant groups. Turks make up more then 5% of the population of Germany but only 1% of the nation as whole is Muslim despite the massive influx of Muslim refugees? I haven't seen numbers this laughably bad since the RAINN statistics were released.

You have posted a massive amount of information here. It is sometimes a tactic of people to flood a discussion with information in order to hide the truth. But I will give the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you are simply trying to improve the quality of discussion and address it as such. Although, obviously I have limited time to spend here.

You make the assertion that my sources have "long been discredited", without any evidence. What percentage of the population of France is undocumented immigrants, how many of those are muslims and how would it change the statistics presented here? Also, you say that in Germany, I somehow claim that 1% are muslim? It's clearly stated in the OP that the number is 5.8-6,1% muslim. So unless I misunderstood something, I don't know what you are getting at.

You claim crime statistics have been bastardized in virtually all nations in the OP, yet provide no evidence. I know for a fact that is not true in Denmark. Germany has terrorism crimes seperate yes. What number is that, and how would it effect the crime rate? What about the other countries?

Lastly, you claim that all it requires the be classified as a native ethnicity is being born in a country, and that's not the case. Different countries have slightly different rules for when someone is classified that way. Every single immigrant is classified as such at when they arrive. In regards to their kids, in Denmark and Sweden, you have to have at least one ethnic native parent. If parents are immigrants, you are classified as an imimigrant. In Germany, you have to have both parents native Germans to classifiy as German, so it's even stricter.

Speaking on the Peterson post, I can't qoute because the thread closed, but here's the post: http://forums.sherdog.com/posts/144136665/

You said this: "Like what? I have never heard him misspeak on evolutionary biology or neuroscience. My wife a Psychiatrist, has never heard him misspeak on either. This is where the left piles on because for them truth is social orthodoxy. Maintaining the collective lie is the most important thing because all they care about is the status gained by remaining within that collective, so when it collapses they are left looking the fool." -

And here's my response, which btw was posted the day after:
http://forums.sherdog.com/posts/144172823/

 

[Ruprecht]

A) it is the interpretation of both Sunni and Shia.
B) Sunni's make up 90% of the worlds Muslims, so it is irrelevant anyways.
C) I did absolutely copy and past it. I did so because it is completely accurate. Your "recognized sources" are bullshit. They are Islamic reformists who nobody listens to. Most consider these reformists to be heretics of the highest order. The people who wrote what you posted aren't even Sunni or Shia they are a members of a minuscule sect which operates essentially completely out of the west and have brought us such gems as, "its not 72 virgins that are promised to martyrs but 72 raisins". Nobody takes them seriously with the exception of far left ideologues who simply don't know any better.

The Sunni and Shia interpretations differ markedly, so obviously you don't know what you're talking about. Largely due to the fact that Taqiyya is historically much more common amongst the Shia populations as a response to Sunni persecution. In fact the entire idea that Islam teaches Muslims to lie is largely a copy of Sunni Muslim criticisms of Shia.

IslamQA are not Islamic reformists. Unless by "reformist" you mean Salafi. That was the Hanafi aqeedah they were referring to there anyway. The Hanafi fiqh has the largest number of followers within Sunni islam, it is neither a "sect" nor "miniscule".

 

[uppercutbus]

I'd like to ask you, how you explain that crime rates, including rape convictions, have been decreasing in most EU countries?

There you go again talking about all of Europe.

"the crime rates have lowered all across Europe" (Norway, Poland, Hungary. . .).

Perhaps concentrate on the countries and regions that have imported third worlders and ones that already had a high population of them (such as UK/France prison population).

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201712181060099942-sweden-consent-clause-rape-problem/
original german:
https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/art...9_1513698687_58255583db61554a4f56075304314f61

In a bid to address ballooning sexual crimes, the Swedish government is seeking to toughen legislation. Following the #Metoo sex scandal, which resonated well with Sweden's self-described feminist government, the Stockholm authorities want to amend the sex laws with a specific "consent clause" to ensure that all sex in the country is voluntary.

Gee I wonder what happened to Sweden that has caused this. Que the usual rape and muslim apologists to damage control and deny - "If we look at all of Europe". You guys desperate to import rapefugees, carrying the water for child molesters.

 

[Kindacrazy]

You make the assertion that my sources have "long been discredited", without any evidence. What percentage of the population of France is undocumented immigrants, how many of those are muslims and how would it change the statistics presented here? Also, you say that in Germany, I somehow claim that 1% are muslim? It's clearly stated in the OP that the number is 5.8-6,1% muslim. So unless I misunderstood something, I don't know what you are getting at.

You claim crime statistics have been bastardized in virtually all nations in the OP, yet provide no evidence. I know for a fact that is not true in Denmark. Germany has terrorism crimes seperate yes. What number is that, and how would it effect the crime rate? What about the other countries?

Lastly, you claim that all it requires the be classified as a native ethnicity is being born in a country, and that's not the case. Different countries have slightly different rules for when someone is classified that way. Every single immigrant is classified as such at when they arrive. In regards to their kids, in Denmark and Sweden, you have to have at least one ethnic native parent. If parents are immigrants, you are classified as an imimigrant. In Germany, you have to have both parents native Germans to classifiy as German, so it's even stricter.

Speaking on the Peterson post, I can't qoute because the thread closed, but here's the post: http://forums.sherdog.com/posts/144136665/

You said this: "Like what? I have never heard him misspeak on evolutionary biology or neuroscience. My wife a Psychiatrist, has never heard him misspeak on either. This is where the left piles on because for them truth is social orthodoxy. Maintaining the collective lie is the most important thing because all they care about is the status gained by remaining within that collective, so when it collapses they are left looking the fool." -

And here's my response, which btw was posted the day after:
http://forums.sherdog.com/posts/144172823/

Ah, I misread the numbers posted for Muslims in German because of the Comma. I am used to the spaces that are most commonly used. I apologize, i was reading rather quickly as i have little time here.

As for my claims about Germany bastardizing statistics:

https://www.bdk.de/der-bdk/aktuelle...istik-2014-vorgestellt-mehr-taeter-mehr-taten

But there have literally been hundreds of accusations from police chiefs and law enforcement at all levels. The issue is even worse in Sweden, Britain, and France.

Statistics on ethnicity are done by survey. Literally anyone who doesn't have some sort of migrant status can claim native ethnicity. "Returning Germans from all over Europe" regularly claim "German ethnicity". There is no current mechanism in any European nation to deal with this issue. Also you are flat out wrong that your parents being immigrants flags you as an immigrant. If you are born in Germany and have parents who have German Citizenship then you are by default listed as German.

I will look at he Peterson response, but I don't know if I will have time to respond. Very busy.

 

[uppercutbus]

As for my claims about Germany bastardizing statistics:

https://www.bdk.de/der-bdk/aktuelle...istik-2014-vorgestellt-mehr-taeter-mehr-taten

But there have literally been hundreds of accusations from police chiefs and law enforcement at all levels. The issue is even worse in Sweden, Britain, and France.

Statistics on ethnicity are done by survey. Literally anyone who doesn't have some sort of migrant status can claim native ethnicity. "Returning Germans from all over Europe" regularly claim "German ethnicity". There is no current mechanism in any European nation to deal with this issue.

Stats coming from Sweden/Germany are right to be questioned and not taken at face value regarding terrorism/immigrant crime etc. I just find it ironic the stats they do show are still unfavorable to foreigners and crime representation despite their efforts.

Sweden, a country

- which tells police to not report any migrant crimes. (http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/swedish-cop-fed-up.3467041/)
- refuses to report the race of perps because it might hurt some feelings.
- full damage control (http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/swedish-rape-rate-the-truth.3479175/#post-127665441) from the cops (http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/swedish-police-probe-new-year-sex-assaults.3146879/) at any pushback.

Official stats aren't gospel
https://www.breitbart.com/europe/20...gration-minister-admits-lying-bbc-rape-stats/

Sweden’s ruling liberal party Integration Minister has been forced into an embarrassing U-turn after she falsely told BBC the number of reported rapes in the country was falling.

data manipulation, hiding and censorship.

It’s not only Germany that covers up mass sex attacks by migrant men...
https://www.spectator.com.au/2016/0...ks-by-migrant-men-swedens-record-is-shameful/

I also said Sweden and neither are upfront about anything related to crime and immigration problems. Why would they be? It wouldn't be in their interest to contradict their policies, especially if they're seen as failing (over-representation in crimes, high unemployment).

Germany's Cologne attacks and how they downplayed it. Stockholm was famous for not only the sex attacks but police accused of playing down mass sexual assaults on teens and not doing anything and that was after Cologne.

Germany Must Come to Terms With Refugee Crime
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-01-03/germany-must-come-to-terms-with-refugee-crime

Anti-immigrant parties have long linked Muslim immigration to crime, but verifiable data to support their arguments have been scarce, not least because police services and statistical agencies have been reluctant to track this aspect of criminality so as not to increase tension in societies.

The state police -- in keeping with the unspoken taboo -- hadn't published such statistics

.

 

[surrealworlds]

So you are going off on rants about American Wars in a thread about immigration. Like i said. Nice strawman.

Western nations recognize them as atrocious unless they're directly responsible for them. There are plenty of pictures out there I highly recommend you look up of children blown apart via American bombs. I'm pressing the belief that we're at war, and terrorism is their best choice to pay us back. I've always considered the veteran suicide rate to be a major victory for our enemies as well.

If we're looking at the cause of both terrorism and migration we need to look for the cause. The West isn't completely to blame despite how I may sound, but we do have a hand in it.

My major complaint is due to how short sighted people are in this regard, their lack of accountability, and the blatant embrace of hysteria despite the statistics shown in the OP to show that they were incorrect with their "sky is falling"

 

[Andy Capp]

The fact that at those modest numbers they are already so destructive and subversive just lends credence to the idea that they shouldn’t be imported in to the West.

LOL the people who liked this post reads like the who's who of Shertards.

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

The reaction to 9/11 was the invasion of Afghanistan. Not the Iraq War... the reason why the Iraq war happened, has been documented over and over again. Shit, I'll post sources for you so you can educate yourself if you're really that far behind. You must be young or a troll, to not remember it, or you only got information from biased sources. I remember during the buildup for it, how critical European media was about it.

Some pictures for you.

Because before the Iraq War, there was always these constant deadly attacks by terrorist against the Muslim population of countries.
Meh, it doesn't surprise me anymore to read Islamophobia on this forum. It's become normal, and just another reason why the War Room hardly has any Muslims posting in here.

Whoa, book sources - that's some fucking commitment right there lol.

Have a like.

 

[NoDak]

I have been out of the country for about a while, I have occasionally read the boards on my phone but I am sure I missed many things.

Hahah, welcome back!

Visit China IP Thievery thread when you get a chance.

 

[Sano]

Ah, I misread the numbers posted for Muslims in German because of the Comma. I am used to the spaces that are most commonly used. I apologize, i was reading rather quickly as i have little time here.

As for my claims about Germany bastardizing statistics:

https://www.bdk.de/der-bdk/aktuelle...istik-2014-vorgestellt-mehr-taeter-mehr-taten

But there have literally been hundreds of accusations from police chiefs and law enforcement at all levels. The issue is even worse in Sweden, Britain, and France.

Statistics on ethnicity are done by survey. Literally anyone who doesn't have some sort of migrant status can claim native ethnicity. "Returning Germans from all over Europe" regularly claim "German ethnicity". There is no current mechanism in any European nation to deal with this issue. Also you are flat out wrong that your parents being immigrants flags you as an immigrant. If you are born in Germany and have parents who have German Citizenship then you are by default listed as German.

I will look at he Peterson response, but I don't know if I will have time to respond. Very busy.

Are you German? The article, and interesting read, focuses on how certain crimes are underreported and that certain areas are priorities over others. As far as I know, this is the same in most if not all other countries as well. It does seem like there are some legitimate concerns in Germany though, but you have to make a stronger case for a conspiracy going on. This was written in 2015, what has happened since? I know that at least cybercrimes (which they mentioned being underreported as well) was strongly presented and reported in the 2017 crime statistics.

In regards to native borns: *According to the German Federal Statistics Office: All individuals who have immigrated to the Federal Republic of Germany since 1949, all foreign citizens born in Germany, and all children born as German citizens to at least one parent who immigrated or was born in Germany as a foreign citizen are considered to have a migration background."

So if you immigrated after 1949 (despite getting citizenship after), are born as a non german citizen, or have at least one parent who immigrated or was born as a non-citizen and you are still counted as an immigrant. Meaning you need to have two parents that are natives to count as native. What am I missing here? Are you conflating citizens with immigrant status?

If you look at the statistics from 2017, I went through them earlier, you also see that German immigrants are divided into groups including foreign born, nation born, citizens or non citizens.

Statistics are done in some cases with surveys, in others not. Depends on the country, and also, if you want to argue with the methodology of census surveys you'd have to do a better job. As I posted earlier in this thread, the Germans who assign themselves as resettlers are 3,5% of the population. I don't see how that would tip the scale either way, and you'd better have a solid basis for saying it's not true.

There you go again talking about all of Europe.

"the crime rates have lowered all across Europe" (Norway, Poland, Hungary. . .).

Perhaps concentrate on the countries and regions that have imported third worlders and ones that already had a high population of them (such as UK/France prison population).

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201712181060099942-sweden-consent-clause-rape-problem/
original german:
https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/art...9_1513698687_58255583db61554a4f56075304314f61


Gee I wonder what happened to Sweden that has caused this. Que the usual rape and muslim apologists to damage control and deny - "If we look at all of Europe". You guys desperate to import rapefugees, carrying the water for child molesters.

Norway took in refugees as well, I don't know why you lump them together with Hungary. Also, did you know that Norway has the most lenient judicial system out of any Scandinavian country? "Rapefugees".... good one...

From your article:
"Crime Prevention Council (Brå), which was partly attributed to the #Metoo campaign, that claimed to have raised the public's awareness and de-stigmatized the victims, national broadcaster SVT reported."

and the law change:

"The new draft bill presented by the Swedish government will criminalize having sex with anyone who has not explicitly said yes or otherwise shown they are willing to participate. This is known as the "consent clause" and was previously campaigned for by Gender Equality Minister Åsa Regnér, among others."

and

"The criminal code will thus be expanded to include charges of "careless rape" and "careless sexual assault," and the penalties will also be increased, SVT reported."

Meaning that they will now change it to that you can be reported not only if the person says no (which is what rape is), but also if the person doesn't explicitly says yes either verbally or in writing. It's attributed to the metoo movement largely, as the article says. It has absolutely nothing to do with immigrants or refugees. Swedens laws have already changed back in 2005, and then again 2013, and now again. They are WAY more inclusive than any countries laws. If a girl is drunk, it can be reported rape, if you finger a girl, it can be reported rape, if you don't have verbal consent now, it can be reported rape. Even if done willingly. It's to target all the casual date and interrelationship sexual assaults or someone taken advantage, which are highly underreported. As mentioned earlier, 80-90% of rapes are done by an aquaintance, friend or partner/ex-partner. You are just inserting immigrants here without any evidence.

We already know immigrants over overrepresentated, you don't have to make stuff up. Just go with the evidence we have.

 

[InternetHero]

This paints the picture well enough. Always nice to see numbers, at least in comparison to bloated rhetoric with an obvious political agenda. Thanks for compiling that.

I'm fairly "pro-Muslim," whatever that means, however, two blocks of raw data never tell much of a story.

Here is kind of what the thread is saying:

Verified % of Muslims per country + demographic hopes/assimilation should = not a big deal. (That's my reading of the tone, I could be off, but certainly a lot of posters are reading it that way.)

Therein lies a few problems:

- Most of the immigrants are young, active men

- Most of the immigrants are of an old, resolute way of thinking

- Many of the immigrants have isolated themselves in enclaves

- The authorities across the EU are not exactly forthcoming about the numbers, %'s, and further details of migrants. A reason there is a new rape-gang or murder, many of the residents turn to inward anguish/soul searching rather than dare point a finger at the new element in the societies, and further repress accuracy by intimidating whistle blowers.

- Some of the migrants are dangerous. Criticism can lead to consequences, being quiet and conforming is usually safe.

- Some communities have been transformed by the aggressive new ingredient to their cultural cake.

The heavy layer of sprinkles is quite noticeable, and surely the left sees delicious sugar that moves us all towards a Utopian amends for imperialist sins, while the right sees a heavy dusting or refuse.

So often, of course, the truth is between the polarities.

An interesting anecdote to all of this - Multiple exchange students and educators I have talked to are actively avoiding places in France/Germany over the "migrant problem." The Chinese are at times a bit hyperbolic about danger, but also there is a vein of realism and truth in what the community does to protect itself. That they are avoiding Paris and spreading lots of stories about what happened to them there, is probably a symptom of something uglier.

 

[Andy Capp]

Nice try. If anybody wants to read our conversation go to the thread here and read: http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/u...left-almost-totally-muslim-now.3855321/page-3

I wont repeat the same things in this thread and clutter it up.

One thing I saw in that thread that made me smile; another moron got banned.