Ethnicity and Muslims in Europe - The numbers

[trac209]

One thing I saw in that thread that made me smile; another moron got banned.

You’re right anyone who speaks against Islam should be banned.....smh. What is it with liberals that they want Islam so badly? I have some very sad news for you most western cultures do not want it,that’s just a fact. Our Islam loving pm is on his way out along with his Islam immigration loving cabinet. And for the record it didn’t bother me Muslim’s came to Canada who were fleeing etc but when our pm started his islamophobia laws and fast tracking Muslim immigration I had a problem. Crying over hijab hoax and calling Canadians racist?. Islam isn’t a race,no religion is protected from scrutiny especially under the guise of racism. I know this opinion won’t jive with you but zero fucks given.

 

[Andy Capp]

You’re right anyone who speaks against Islam should be banned.....

Yeah, LOL I'm sure that's the reason that pinhead got banned. If so, I can hardly wait for you to join him.

 

[trac209]

Yeah, LOL I'm sure that's the reason that pinhead got banned. If so, I can hardly wait for you to join him.

I’m sure you can’t,it’s probably all you can think about. I almost gave you the benefit of the doubt after reading a couple of your post but the reason I changed my mind was your who’s who of shertards comment. I don’t care who does or doesn’t get banned and fact you do shows you’re the shertard if anyone is.

 

[Andy Capp]

The reaction to 9/11 was the invasion of Afghanistan. Not the Iraq War... the reason why the Iraq war happened, has been documented over and over again. Shit, I'll post sources for you so you can educate yourself if you're really that far behind. You must be young or a troll, to not remember it, or you only got information from biased sources. I remember during the buildup for it, how critical European media was about it.

Some pictures for you.

Because before the Iraq War, there was always these constant deadly attacks by terrorist against the Muslim population of countries.
Meh, it doesn't surprise me anymore to read Islamophobia on this forum. It's become normal, and just another reason why the War Room hardly has any Muslims posting in here.

Indeed. There's a reason Canada joined the coalition in Afghanistan but refused to participate in combat in Iraq (notwithstanding later action in Iraq against IS).

 

[Andy Capp]

I’m sure you can’t,it’s probably all you can think about. I almost gave you the benefit of the doubt after reading a couple of your post but the reason I changed my mind was your who’s who of shertards comment. I don’t care who does or doesn’t get banned and fact you do shows you’re the shertard if anyone is.

There are posters on here who contribute little but snide comments, inflamed emotional rhetoric, and disingenuous bad-faith arguments. I have no remorse about, nor make any secret of, a total lack of interest in seeing their posts stink up these forums. But I disagree that it occupies more than a passing moment of my attention. It's definitely not worth it.

 

[Andy Capp]

I'm fairly "pro-Muslim," whatever that means, however, two blocks of raw data never tell much of a story.

Here is kind of what the thread is saying:

Verified % of Muslims per country + demographic hopes/assimilation should = not a big deal. (That's my reading of the tone, I could be off, but certainly a lot of posters are reading it that way.)

Therein lies a few problems:

- Most of the immigrants are young, active men

- Most of the immigrants are of an old, resolute way of thinking

- Many of the immigrants have isolated themselves in enclaves

- The authorities across the EU are not exactly forthcoming about the numbers, %'s, and further details of migrants. A reason there is a new rape-gang or murder, many of the residents turn to inward anguish/soul searching rather than dare point a finger at the new element in the societies, and further repress accuracy by intimidating whistle blowers.

- Some of the migrants are dangerous. Criticism can lead to consequences, being quiet and conforming is usually safe.

- Some communities have been transformed by the aggressive new ingredient to their cultural cake.

The heavy layer of sprinkles is quite noticeable, and surely the left sees delicious sugar that moves us all towards a Utopian amends for imperialist sins, while the right sees a heavy dusting or refuse.

So often, of course, the truth is between the polarities.

An interesting anecdote to all of this - Multiple exchange students and educators I have talked to are actively avoiding places in France/Germany over the "migrant problem." The Chinese are at times a bit hyperbolic about danger, but also there is a vein of realism and truth in what the community does to protect itself. That they are avoiding Paris and spreading lots of stories about what happened to them there, is probably a symptom of something uglier.

The issues in France go much much further back than the recent "migrant crisis." I have posted about this in the past. A very large part of the problem there is previous generations of Muslim immigrants being shunted off to ghettos and treated like second class citizens. I don't have the energy to dig up sources right now but they exist. It was the native French that did this to the Muslims, not the other way around, something similar to "The Projects" in the US but maybe much worse. Leaving aside the deep seated resentment this has engendered among them, it has no doubt led to just the sorts of enclaves people are complaining about today. So yes, there's an issue and they really need to deal with it, but blaming Muslims for it and further demeaning them is not the way to resolve it.

 

[InternetHero]

The issues in France go much much further back than the recent "migrant crisis." I have posted about this in the past. A very large part of the problem there is previous generations of Muslim immigrants being shunted off to ghettos and treated like second class citizens. I don't have the energy to dig up sources right now but they exist. It was the native French that did this to the Muslims, not the other way around, something similar to "The Projects" in the US but maybe much worse. Leaving aside the deep seated resentment this has engendered among them, it has no doubt led to just the sorts of enclaves people are complaining about today. So yes, there's an issue and they really need to deal with it, but blaming Muslims for it and further demeaning them is not the way to resolve it.

I think this part of the story is about 70% on the money.

The French upper class and others have taken as much as advantage as they can/walled off the populace.

Why have them there to begin with? And why stay, on the other hand. Gaelic society has not treated the newcomers well, but E.U. social engineering kind of invited in the trouble.

At the same time, countries that are more inviting to migrants tend to get more. French authorities/politicians tend to send that message, when it pleases them to do so, with truncheons and tear gas on fellow Frenchman/new Frenchman alike.

Also, that France is a bit class oriented and traditional, was another sign this would turn out poorly for everyone not a wealthy cosmopolitan.

 

[Andy Capp]

Incidentally, regarding the post below, I admit it was a drunk post and I retract it. @trac209

LOL the people who liked this post reads like the who's who of Shertards.

 

[Andy Capp]

I think this part of the story is about 70% on the money.

The French upper class and others have taken as much as advantage as they can/walled off the populace.

Why have them there to begin with? And why stay, on the other hand. Gaelic society has not treated the newcomers well, but E.U. social engineering kind of invited in the trouble.

At the same time, countries that are more inviting to migrants tend to get more. French authorities/politicians tend to send that message, when it pleases them to do so, with truncheons and tear gas on fellow Frenchman/new Frenchman alike.

Also, that France is a bit class oriented and traditional, was another sign this would turn out poorly for everyone not a wealthy cosmopolitan.

70%? Really?
Consider,

For all their vitality, the banlieues feel isolated from the city, and from France itself. Parisians and tourists rarely visit them, and residents complain that journalists drop in only to report on car burnings and drug shootings. The suburb Clichy-sous-Bois—the scene, in 2005, of youth riots that spread across the country—has tried to raise revenue by offering a tour de banlieue for curious outsiders. Many suburban residents, meanwhile, never even think of going to Paris. Compared with American slums, the banlieues have relatively decent standards of housing and safety, but the psychological distance between the 93 and the Champs-Elysées can feel insuperable—much greater than that between the Bronx and Times Square. The apartment blocks in the cités, often arranged around a pharmacy, a convenience store, and a fast-food joint, look inward. Many have no street addresses, obvious points of entry, or places to park. The sense of separation is heightened by the names of the surrounding streets and schools, preserved from a historical France that has little connection to residents’ lives. The roads around Gros Saule—a drug-ridden cité where the police dare not enter—include Rue Henri Matisse and Rue Claude Debussy.

“It’s a social frontier,” Badroudine Abdallah, Mehdi Meklat’s colleague at Bondy Blog, said. “It’s not just about being black or Arab. It’s also about having relationships at your disposal, a network.” Meklat and Abdallah, who are in their twenties, told me about weeklong internships required of French ninth graders. Most of their classmates ended up in lousy little bakeries or pharmacies, or with nothing, because corporations wouldn’t answer queries from the children of immigrants in the 93.

Being from the banlieues is a serious impediment to employability, and nearly every resident I met had a story about discrimination. Fanta Ba, the daughter of Senegalese immigrants, has taken to sending out job applications using her middle name, France, and Frenchifying her last name to Bas, but she remains out of work. Whenever she hears of a terrorist attack in France, she prays, “Don’t let it be an Arab, a black, a Muslim.” On January 7th, she turned off the TV and avoided Facebook for two days. She couldn’t bear to rewatch the violent images or hear that all Muslims bore some responsibility. “To have to say, ‘I am Charlie’ or ‘I am a Muslim and I condemn this’—it’s too much,” she said. “It wasn’t me. I asked myself, ‘How will this end? Are they going to put crosses on the apartment doors of Muslims or Arabs?’ ”

Ben Ahmed has a friend from Bobigny named Brahim Aniba, an accountant who, like many banlieue residents, once endured a period of unemployment. To receive state benefits, he had to meet with a job counsellor. Aniba told me that the counsellor, wanting to help, said, “You don’t have an aunt who lives in Paris or somewhere else? Because Bobigny—really? Cité Grémillon?” This was the French equivalent of Shitsville. The counsellor advised, “If you have an address in Paris, a post-office box, just to receive mail, it’s better. And then the family name, Aniba—it’s O.K., but the first name, Brahim, use ‘B.’ ”

“Madame, why don’t I just drop my pants instead?” Aniba said.

Simply defining who is French can make small talk tricky. When people ask Widad Ketfi, a thirty-year-old journalist, where she’s from, she replies, “Bondy,” but that never ends the conversation. “Of what origin?” “French.” “Where are your parents from?” “France!” Even citizens of immigrant descent often identify whites with the term Français de souche—“French from the roots.” The implication is that people with darker skin are not fully French.

Fanta Ba said, “You do everything for France, to be accepted, but you feel you’re not welcome.” This is especially true for Muslims. In a poll taken by Le Mondeafter the attacks, a majority of respondents agreed that Islam is incompatible with French values. In a cité like Trappes, where Ba grew up, some Muslims have separated from French society: women are disappearing under the black abaya; men are dropping out of school to sell Islamic clothing online. Ba doesn’t cover her hair, but she has become more observant as she struggles with being jobless and alone. Withdrawal, she said, was often a reaction to exclusion.

In the 2012 elections, nine of the five hundred and seventy-seven seats in France’s National Assembly were won by nonwhite candidates—an increase of eight seats. France remains a caste society where social capital is king. It’s ruled by les énarques—graduates of the prestigious École Nationale d’Administration, in Strasbourg. According to Laurent Bouvet, a political scientist, an élite degree is the only guarantee of finding a good job in a country that’s mired in economic torpor. This is increasingly true in America, too, but the U.S. absorbs immigrants far more easily than France. What the two countries have in common—and what makes them unique—is a national identity based not just on history, blood, soil, and culture but on the idea of popular sovereignty. In France, this is called republicanism, and in theory the idea is universal. In practice, being part of the French republic has to do not just with democracy and secularism but also with what you wear, what you eat, and what you name your children.

Source
I mean, you're not wrong, as the last paragraph I quoted backs it up, but it's very clear to me that doesn't make what I said one jot less accurate.

That struck me as a missed opportunity, for the exhibitions tell a rich story, going back to the mid-nineteenth century, when France was receiving new immigrants while the rest of Europe was creating them. As recently as the nineteen-thirties, France had the world’s highest number of immigrants per capita. The museum’s placards offer historical reassurance: “The figure of the unassimilable foreigner accompanies every wave of immigrants. From the Italians at the end of the nineteenth century to the Africans of today, the stereotypes hardly change: immigrants are too numerous, carriers of disease, potential criminals, aliens in the body of the nation. This xenophobia, recurring in times of crisis, is often paired with anti-Semitism and fed by racism.”

The least digestible aspect of France’s colonial past is Algeria. When Algeria was settled by Europeans, in the early nineteenth century, it became part of greater France, and remained so until 1962, when independence was achieved, after an eight-year war in which seven hundred thousand people died. It’s hard to overstate how heavily this intimate, sad history has been repressed. “The Battle of Algiers,” the filmmaker Gillo Pontecorvo’s neo-realist masterpiece about insurgency, counterinsurgency, terrorism, and torture in Algiers, was banned in France for five years after its release, in 1966, and it remains taboo there. On October 17, 1961, during demonstrations by pro-independence Algerians in Paris and its suburbs, the French police killed some two hundred people, throwing many bodies off bridges into the Seine. It took forty years for France to acknowledge that this massacre had occurred, and the incident remains barely mentioned in schools. Young people in the banlieues told me that colonial history is cursorily taught, and literature from former colonies hardly read.

Andrew Hussey, a British scholar at the University of London School of Advanced Study in Paris, believes that the turmoil in the banlieues—periodic riots, car burnings, brawls with cops—is one more front in the long war between France and its Arabs, especially Algerians. The aim of the violence isn’t reform or revolution but revenge. “The kids in the banlieues live in this perpetual present of weed, girls, gangsters, Islam,” he said. “They have no sense of history, no sense of where they come from in North Africa, other than localized bits of Arabic that they don’t understand, bits of Islam that don’t really make sense.”

 

[Andy Capp]

I honestly feel Bush is not an evil man, truth be told. Just that he was mislead. I know that the final say lied with him, but I feel like he was duped by the warmongering neo-cons and Israel.
If anyone should be in jail it should be the ones that intentionally mislead the president, and pushed for the invasion.

*lay
with Homer gone, gotta keep people on their toes

But seriously, yes, and I think most people probably agree with you judging by the way he is feted on all the talk shows and so on. People can see the easy humour that uses to handle his prior embarrassments and it's ingratiating.

 

[Sano]

I'm fairly "pro-Muslim," whatever that means, however, two blocks of raw data never tell much of a story.

Here is kind of what the thread is saying:

Verified % of Muslims per country + demographic hopes/assimilation should = not a big deal. (That's my reading of the tone, I could be off, but certainly a lot of posters are reading it that way.)

Therein lies a few problems:

- Most of the immigrants are young, active men

- Most of the immigrants are of an old, resolute way of thinking

- Many of the immigrants have isolated themselves in enclaves

- The authorities across the EU are not exactly forthcoming about the numbers, %'s, and further details of migrants. A reason there is a new rape-gang or murder, many of the residents turn to inward anguish/soul searching rather than dare point a finger at the new element in the societies, and further repress accuracy by intimidating whistle blowers.

- Some of the migrants are dangerous. Criticism can lead to consequences, being quiet and conforming is usually safe.

- Some communities have been transformed by the aggressive new ingredient to their cultural cake.

The heavy layer of sprinkles is quite noticeable, and surely the left sees delicious sugar that moves us all towards a Utopian amends for imperialist sins, while the right sees a heavy dusting or refuse.

So often, of course, the truth is between the polarities.

An interesting anecdote to all of this - Multiple exchange students and educators I have talked to are actively avoiding places in France/Germany over the "migrant problem." The Chinese are at times a bit hyperbolic about danger, but also there is a vein of realism and truth in what the community does to protect itself. That they are avoiding Paris and spreading lots of stories about what happened to them there, is probably a symptom of something uglier.

Nice with a somewhat reasonable post. Your summary of this thread is not entirely correct though, and disagree with a few of your overarching assumptions.

There is no doubt that there is an issue with certain groups, but when you say the authorities are not exactly forthcoming I mean, that's again not something that's substantiated. The Swedes have definitely been too lenient in their immigration policies and tried to silence the anti-muslim critics, but that has been changing. Here in Denmark, we've had a right leaning government for most of the last 15 years and pretty far right (as Danish politics is concerned) the last 3. There's absolutely no "hiding" of any immigrant numbers here, on the contrary a lot of the platforms of political parties in EU run on the exact opposite. Including the Sweden Democrats in Sweden. As in anti-muslim is their entire platform and they do everything they can do to exaggerate the numbers.

I agree that the truth lies between the two ends of the spectrum. I've said this many times in this thread already, but I'll qoute it again. This sums up my position on the politics:

"The side that says that "there's no problem at all and everything is rosy" are deluding themselves, the other side (represented here on the WR) that say "Europe is rampant with muslims who are terorrist rapist and murderes" are also delusional. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, but the reason why I argue against the misinformation here is because it is very dangerous. It fosters extremism, demonising entire ethnicities and making them sub-human. That is directly taken out of the fanatics 101 playbook, and the results we've seen through history. Islamic fanatics use it, Neo-nazis use it, facists use it.

I'd like to point out, that if this forum was filled with completely non-critical pro islam people, hardcore new wave feminists and "cultural appropriation" people I would argue with them as well.

There is no doubt that the immigration policies needed tightening up, as have been done, and the integration policies needs to be looked at. Here in Denmark, we see that more and more non-western immigrants are getting an education, crime rates are falling quite drasticly in those demographics and there is a lot of positive development. We know that what drives crime up is 1) lack of education, 2) poverty, 3) unemployment 4) sex (being male), 5) age (being young) and 6) social relations and network.

If we put effort into reforming ghetto housing, meaning not putting everyone in the same place. If we further our social youth initatives as preventive measures (which we've done here which is partly why the crime rates are dropping), because we know that criminal prevention is much more successful than punitive. If we increase the access to education and have greater willingness to employ and integrate non-western immigrants we can lower the crime and create a more cohesive society.

At the same time, we need to keep border policies tight and sensible, while still allowing our UN mandated asylum seekers and apply with our human rights constitution. That is what makes us great. We have to remember, that we are living in some of the greatest countries in the world up here, and while we have problems, they pale in comparison to most societies. Scandinavian values are strong, and we need to be pragmatic to keep them strong. Not go fullblown xenophobic, neither be oblivious to the realities and put our heads in the sand.

These are not radical suggestions, and they are not more costly."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Speaking of anecdotes, I've heard some pretty terrible things about some of the Chinese' view on other cultures and people, from people I know who's lived there. Considering that the government is putting Uighurs in concentration camps because happen to have a different religion or skin color, that's not a far stretch.

Btw, I'll detail the events of this thread in my next post to address that, and the purpose of this thread.

 

[Andy Capp]

My problem is the spread of Islam. I was hoping by this point, religion of all kind would be slowly fading away, not growing. With the internet, you have basically infinite knowledge. There's no excuse to believe in fairy tales in this day and age. How in the hell is it spreading? It makes me lose all hope for humanity.

I think most people are opposed to Scientology and consider it ridiculous. Imagine if Scientology churches were popping up all over the world and its adherents were moving in, practicing their religion in the street and refusing to integrate with the laws and culture of their lands. This is what is happening. It has absolutely nothing to do with race and everything to do with ideology.

It's OK to not want those kind of ideas to spread. It doesn't make you racist or bigoted. It makes you reasonable.

The idea that there's some massive organized promulgation of Islam is at issue. It's ridiculously exaggerated to whip up resentment and fear.
Canadians are wrong about Muslims, happiness, and homosexuality

Canadians think there are way more Muslims in Canada than there really are.

We think a third of Canadians believe homosexuality is immoral, but in reality, only a sliver of the population thinks so.


On average, Canadians believe a quarter of the population think it's wrong to have sex before marriage. In reality, only 15% of us think you should get hitched before hooking up.

We think only 60% of us are happy, where in reality 87% of us say we're peachy keen.

Those are all findings from international polling company Ipsos's annual Perils of Perception survey. In 40 countries, the firm compared people's perceptions of demographic fact, with actual demographic fact. And in most cases, found that people are way off.

"We have to put some of the blame and some of the shame on politicians who drive into these areas because they believe there's some political advantage based on the public's ignorance. And take tonight's news broadcast. Instead of focusing on racism, instead of focusing on anger, instead of focusing on people who are unhappy, let's have a news broadcast that's actually closer to the truth, in which we've seen a decline in bigotry. In which we've seen an increase in the level of happiness in this country."

According to Ipsos: The survey is conducted in 40 countries around the world, via the Ipsos Online Panel system. Approximately 1000 individuals aged 16-64 or 18-64, surveyed in Australia, Brazil, Canada, China, France, Germany, Great Britain, Italy, Japan, Spain, USA, and approximately 800 individuals aged 18-64 were surveyed Czech Republic, Montenegro, Netherlands, Norway, Serbia. Approximately 500 individuals aged 16-64 or 18-64 were surveyed in the remaining countries. The "actual" data for each question is taken from a variety of verified sources including The World Values Survey and Pew Research Center. A full list of sources/links to the actual data can be found here.

Let's hear now about how all these immigrants are ruining Canada.

 

[sweede]

Nice with a somewhat reasonable post. Your summary of this thread is not entirely correct though, and disagree with a few of your overarching assumptions.

There is no doubt that there is an issue with certain groups, but when you say the authorities are not exactly forthcoming I mean, that's again not something that's substantiated. The Swedes have definitely been too lenient in their immigration policies and tried to silence the anti-muslim critics, but that has been changing. Here in Denmark, we've had a right leaning government for most of the last 15 years and pretty far right (as Danish politics is concerned) the last 3. There's absolutely no "hiding" of any immigrant numbers here, on the contrary a lot of the platforms of political parties in EU run on the exact opposite. Including the Sweden Democrats in Sweden. As in anti-muslim is their entire platform and they do everything they can do to exaggerate the numbers.

I agree that the truth lies between the two ends of the spectrum. I've said this many times in this thread already, but I'll qoute it again. This sums up my position on the politics:

"The side that says that "there's no problem at all and everything is rosy" are deluding themselves, the other side (represented here on the WR) that say "Europe is rampant with muslims who are terorrist rapist and murderes" are also delusional. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, but the reason why I argue against the misinformation here is because it is very dangerous. It fosters extremism, demonising entire ethnicities and making them sub-human. That is directly taken out of the fanatics 101 playbook, and the results we've seen through history. Islamic fanatics use it, Neo-nazis use it, facists use it.

I'd like to point out, that if this forum was filled with completely non-critical pro islam people, hardcore new wave feminists and "cultural appropriation" people I would argue with them as well.

There is no doubt that the immigration policies needed tightening up, as have been done, and the integration policies needs to be looked at. Here in Denmark, we see that more and more non-western immigrants are getting an education, crime rates are falling quite drasticly in those demographics and there is a lot of positive development. We know that what drives crime up is 1) lack of education, 2) poverty, 3) unemployment 4) sex (being male), 5) age (being young) and 6) social relations and network.

If we put effort into reforming ghetto housing, meaning not putting everyone in the same place. If we further our social youth initatives as preventive measures (which we've done here which is partly why the crime rates are dropping), because we know that criminal prevention is much more successful than punitive. If we increase the access to education and have greater willingness to employ and integrate non-western immigrants we can lower the crime and create a more cohesive society.

At the same time, we need to keep border policies tight and sensible, while still allowing our UN mandated asylum seekers and apply with our human rights constitution. That is what makes us great. We have to remember, that we are living in some of the greatest countries in the world up here, and while we have problems, they pale in comparison to most societies. Scandinavian values are strong, and we need to be pragmatic to keep them strong. Not go fullblown xenophobic, neither be oblivious to the realities and put our heads in the sand.

These are not radical suggestions, and they are not more costly."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Speaking of anecdotes, I've heard some pretty terrible things about some of the Chinese' view on other cultures and people, from people I know who's lived there. Considering that the government is putting Uighurs in concentration camps because happen to have a different religion or skin color, that's not a far stretch.

Btw, I'll detail the events of this thread in my next post to address that, and the purpose of this thread.

You have proven yourself to be transparent and extraordinarily neutral in your dissertation of a topic that more often than not ends with opposites departing from any reasonable and constructive disucssion.

You have my approval. Keep up the good work!

 

[sweede]

70%? Really?
Consider,
Source
I mean, you're not wrong, as the last paragraph I quoted backs it up, but it's very clear to me that doesn't make what I said one jot less accurate.

You really have to live in those areas to really understand what France i dealing with. As you wrote earlier.

There are posters on here who contribute little but snide comments, inflamed emotional rhetoric, and disingenuous bad-faith arguments. I have no remorse about, nor make any secret of, a total lack of interest in seeing their posts stink up these forums. But I disagree that it occupies more than a passing moment of my attention. It's definitely not worth it.

The average nutcase on this forum don´t possesses comprehension skills of cause and effect. Either they are so lost in their indoctrinated bubble that include a small world view, or they simply don´t like the physical look of a man in beard, speaking in a language they find aggressive.

 

[sweede]

*lay
with Homer gone, gotta keep people on their toes

But seriously, yes, and I think most people probably agree with you judging by the way he is feted on all the talk shows and so on. People can see the easy humour that uses to handle his prior embarrassments and it's ingratiating.

Correct me if I remember this wrong. Wasn´t Obama making jokes of both Bush Jr and Trump in a special event during a dinner where the former was harbouring a great sense of humour when addressed with a satirical joke? While the latter was acting like a pompous ass not approving at all.

I always thought Bush Jr was not the brightest president USA has ever produced, but his persona was rather mild mannered with a great sense of restraint, probably derived from his limitied skill of vocalisations. But I really think he was a genuine companionable guy.

 

[Andy Capp]

This is so ridiculous I can't take it or you even a little bit seriously. Bye Felicia.

 

[Sano]

@InternetHero

This is how the thread unfolded:

I made this thread because I wanted to shed some light on the factual numbers on muslims in Europe and show that some of the hyperbole on here does not comport with reality. This is not something that only applies to the WR. As I presented in the OP, there is a survery that shows that citizens of EU themselves vastly overestimate the number of muslims. I suspect because of the rhetoric we will see highlighted further down this post:

So it would appear, yes, people do infact vastly overestimate the muslim populaton.

I looked through all the newest data on religon and ethnicity, as close as I could to primary sources, even in native languages. I also cross referenced surveys vs database statistics. I primarily used Pew Research, official government statistics, certified religion institutions and official/unofficial population surveys. Everything was sourced in the reference thread. I specificly didn't include blogs, social media posts and articles, because as everyone knows those are less reliable. I welcome corrections, and I've had one that was valid so far (thanks @Son of Jamin).

Below are some of the other objections that was made to my OP:

Yea, there’s cities, and countries supporting Sharia Law, no big deal

Oh, and OP's numbers for France and Germany are from the 80s. Not your fault, because there aren't any new ones (such censuses are now banned in France and German officials suggest not too look to hard into the subject anyway), but there you go. Lying with statistics 101.

I leave for a few weeks, and this is the shit I come back to? Where to even begin with this idiocy.

I don't know if you are honestly looking into this stuff or just a partisan hack @Sano, but your posts are terrible.

In all of your numbers populations are regularly listed as "German", "Norwegian", or "French". The only thing required to be listed as these ethnicities is having been born in those respective countries.

"Forty years after the Swedish parliament unanimously decided to change the formerly homogenous Sweden into a multicultural country, violent crime has increased by 300% and rapes by 1,472%. Sweden is now number two on the list of rape countries, surpassed only by Lesotho in Southern Africa."

and

That's a small number to be raping 1500 underage girls.

All of them not correct, which I've already covered in detail in each of my replies to them.

As we further examine the contents of this thread, here are some the views that was unsolicitedly expressed regarding people who are muslim:

cancers cells are also a small percentage of the total number of cells in the body.

Gee I wonder what happened to Sweden that has caused this. Que the usual rape and muslim apologists to damage control and deny - "If we look at all of Europe". You guys desperate to import rapefugees, carrying the water for child molesters.

It’s very hard to deny that Muslims will not integrate, their job is to overtake. It’s modern day crucades, they are trying to take over Europe once again, but this time Europe are letting it happen. It’s fucking nuts.

My belief is that their culture, the way they (don't) raise their children, and their biochemistry (testosterone levels/aggressivity levels) are the real problem.

This is a pretty startling mentality and rhetoric, which is exactly why I made this thread in the first place. It's amazing that simple fact checking can ellicit this response.

My credibility, sources and motives has also been attacked, from conspiracy theories to strawmans, to contradictory, and flat out nonsensical statements:

I think they know rip, but liberalism is an illness. They hate their own country and culture.

In that case, open the gates!

To really get to the meat of it, let's look at the curious case of uppercutbus.

He initially claims that it's just "my own research" and that I don't have any sources to back it up with. Apparently I'm making these numbers up:

Once again, it's just your own "research", you treat as gospel and no leftist sources (or otherwise) attack the links I post. Just your own "findings".

Take your hours of research and have some reputable sites also back you up on it. You're using it claim multiple different news articles false. People in the War Room of a karate forum shouldn't be your priority to convince if it's as good as you say.

Somehow "leftist" sources are needed to provide an argument. He never quite explains what exactly it is that is not being backed up by "leftists" sources.

When confronted with the fact that the reference list is right there in the OP for him to read and, as I started with, the sources are the best primary sources I could find cross referenced, he changes his tune. Now the argument is no longer that I don't have any, but that they cannot be trusted:

Official figures also aren't gospel, especially coming from Sweden/Germany.
data manipulation, hiding and censorship.

This seems contradictory, as he himself presents articles that sources from the government to formulate whatever argument it is he is trying to make. Here is when it starts getting confusing so hold fast:

Your problem is that no one backs up your findings. Some of the news articles I posted also cite government statistics. Which is it?

At the same time, to further muddy the water, he mixes in sites like breitbart, dailymail and spectator Australia, two of which you can check reliability of here: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com. Spoiler alert, it's not good. That would be the same quality as using Buzzfeed as a source. Apparently that is held to the same standard. Still, he doesn't care and says as much:

Pretty sure lots/majority of the links aren't brietbart or daily mail either, not that it matters to me.

Then he continues with his obsession with "leftist sites", flounders on, and explains that apparently some "leftist sites" are not debunking whatever claims he's trying to make. He has still not explained what objections he had with my OP in the first place, nor what sites he's talking about:

So this raises the final question, why are there no leftist sites debunking and calling out gatesinstitute or any other research on their findings? Just a random sherdogger here bringing the good news lol.

It's called the Gatestoneinstitute, not gatesinstitute, btw. With that, he suddenly flips. Now he claims that "gatesinstitute" IS a leftist source. Eventhough it's clearly stated here that they are far right (and crappy at fact checking): https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/gatestone-institute/. Thrown into the mix is that I'm arguing against government statistics, which makes no sense at all considering my references. He has also flipped here and is now presenting them as credible, despite of the earlier claim that they cannot be trusted. Which is it? Fair to say, it's confusing:

if you and sano don't even believe in leftist sources like (gatesinstitute, BBC, their own government statistics which news reports on) I don't think you're one to dictate what is "accurate information".

Now some has asked, what is my motive with this thread? I've said as much already. Getting to the facts of the matter, whereever that leads us.

Saying there's a problem we have to discuss is very different from claiming a white genocide, or that muslims will overtake Europe in a few years.

I agree. There has definitely been a problem with too lenient immigration politics. Mostly in Sweden as far as Scandinavian countries go. This has changed to the other side in the last few years. The problem arises when people cannot look at the real facts and numbers, because if we can't do that, we can never solve these issues.

I think this sets a precedent for what to expect trying to look at something objectively.

 

[trac209]

This is so ridiculous I can't take it or you even a little bit seriously. Bye Felicia.

In case you’re not Canadian Trudeau has said these things numerous times.

 

[Andy Capp]

Correct me if I remember this wrong. Wasn´t Obama making jokes of both Bush Jr and Trump in a special event during a dinner where the former was harbouring a great sense of humour when addressed with a satirical joke? While the latter was acting like a pompous ass not approving at all.

I always thought Bush Jr was not the brightest president USA has ever produced, but his persona was rather mild mannered with a great sense of restraint, probably derived from his limitied skill of vocalisations. But I really think he was a genuine companionable guy.

Not sure. Are you referring to the White House Correspondents Dinner? Trump didn't go and got roasted anyway. His supporters weren't amused. Bush got totally ripped to pieces by Colbert and sat and smiled awkwardly through the whole thing.

It's totally possible there is some other occasion that both of them attended and Obama spoke at, but I can't recall.

 

[Andy Capp]

In case you’re not Canadian Trudeau has said these things numerous times.

Sure he has.

You're in the same delusional league of needing a scapegoat to fuel your rage boner.