International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war. Vol. II

[SRN]

 

[SammyPops]

You like farts on and around your lips

And I'm mising the 49ers game for this.

 

[HereticBD]

In regards the decapitated babies even the Israeli military claims there was no evidence confirming this.

For the AI generated claim, that was done using AI detecting software and even on twitter these images were given community notes providing this context. Looking now there are mixed opinions on the topic, so I guess it comes down to what you want to believe.

And what do you believe? These terrorists that mutilated innocent women and children in their homes, drew a line at babies? Really? That's your "logic", is it?

Outside of the obviously biased sources you're getting your news from, the whole "AI generated images" thing, is about as fringe as Alex Jones' 'crisis actor' conspiracies(even more so). The fact that you so confidently claimed the images were "debunked"(by nobody of importance), until met with the simplest of rebuttals, says it all.

 

[terrapin]

The "stolen lands" thing is just a circular discussion that never gets anywhere. Because it always depends on who starts the timeline. You want them to give back the land they took after they were attacked in 1967 and kicked the shit out of the attacking nations? Or...? For the record, I'm absolutely against the expanding settlements. Not because I think I know who's land it "really should be", but because at some point in order for this to ever have a lasting solution...someone is gonna have to choose grace and mercy over flexing and trying to eradicate the other side. Do I see that happening? No. But, as they say...hope is always the last thing to die.

I don't think there's a lot of reasonable debate to be had about what land should be returned. They should go back to when there was a two state solution. It's just that simple for any honest thinking human being without an agenda. I would leave it to a disinterested arbiter third party to help divide those lines... but it would be similar to 1967 or the ones drawn earlier and I can't remember the date.


In this respect, israel has been the primary aggressor and they've had their feet on the necks of Palestinians ever since in an unjust way. There is no way for me to view Israel as anything but a bully pushing around a smaller weaker people.

As far as I'm concerned, the United States is just as culpable because we fund them knowing that they're terrible actors.

I think all of this every single bit of it lies at the feet of the Israeli nation funded by US dollars and interests in that region . It is their responsibility and it is their fault it is all happening.

I say that without excusing in the tiniest bit the terrible and deeply evil acts that Hamas has done now and in the past there is no excuse for it, but there are reasons.

If we had a real leader for a president, he would be smacking netanyahu around with a big stick promising to cut funding unless they get their s*** together and give the Palestinian some breathing room and some autonomy over themselves and their own nation. It might even be possible to get hamas out of power while offering them their own nation and state.

I agree with you 100% about the grace. It's all I talk about even. but there is only one side that can do that and it's Israel and the United States... They have the power, the money and the land to give back.


I think Biden is an absolute disaster on this front. He is blowing an opportunity to make a massive difference for good in the world and I can't even begin to understand why.

Israel needs to apologize for all of the atrocities that they have committed. They need to give back what they have stolen. They need to vote out the right wing religious psychos who have eyes on even more land and not just from the Palestinians. They need to willingly create a genuine two-state solution.

You say it is a non-starter but that's just because of greed and dishonesty and lying on the part of Israel and the United States. But I think its the only just end to the conflict.

 

[Siver!]

I think they should finish getting vengeance out of their system and then do a thorough inventory of all the dishonest and atrocious things they have done since world war II to the Palestinians... make amends for all of that give any and all lands back that they have stolen and start from there with a two state solution. There is probably a way to work has out of power while offering a two states sollution also.

If I was biden all funding for Israel would be cut until that was done.

Fully agree.

I was thinking, the dialogue of Netanyahu and his government has been frighteningly similar to that of Putin and his cronies.

At least Israel can legitimately point to being attacked, whereas Putin has to basically grasp at straws to 'prove' an attack was imminent somehow.

But it's still very frightening.

 

[Barteh]

Fully agree.

I was thinking, the dialogue of Netanyahu and his government has been frighteningly similar to that of Putin and his cronies.

At least Israel can legitimately point to being attacked, whereas Putin has to basically grasp at straws to 'prove' an attack was imminent somehow.

But it's still very frightening.

Isn't Putin's whole thing that Russians were being attacked inside of Ukrainian territory? Which is actually something that really happened. I don't remember the Russians ever claiming that Ukraine was gonna attack Russia lol.

 

[My Spot]

They should go back to when there was a two state solution.

You can thank all of Israel's Arab neighbors for that not happening.

 

[HereticBD]

Actually, they don't. I doubt Israel could keep this conflict going for over 3 months. All the last 3 major Israeli/Arab conflicts lasted about a month. It is not just about tunnels. Israel has to deal with Hezbollah to the North which is worse than Hamas to the South. 300,000 Israeli reservists called up. Who is doing their work back home in Israel? What do you think this will do to the Israeli economy in about 3 months?

LOL.

Aren't you tired of predicting doom and gloom for the Israeli's by now. Look, they are a tiny America. They don't have to worry about all that shit. They are well funded and already leagues ahead of any shit heel terrorist group stupid enough to get involved.

Let me guess, you didn't think Israel was gonna flatten the place either, right? One of them "what can Israel do, that they haven't already done?" morons, who thought they would just bomb a few places and call it a day, like that was the extent of their power and rage.

Israel is gonna sweep those tunnels like a firebomb. Maybe literally. Keep hope alive, though. I'm sure the whole comfortable Muslim nations are just itching to get involved and try and save these people they don't even like.

 

[mkess101]

I don't think there's a lot of reasonable debate to be had about what land should be returned. They should go back to when there was a two state solution. It's just that simple for any honest thinking human being without an agenda. I would leave it to a disinterested arbiter third party to help divide those lines... but it would be similar to 1967 or the ones drawn earlier and I can't remember the date.


In this respect, israel has been the primary aggressor and they've had their feet on the necks of Palestinians ever since in an unjust way. There is no way for me to view Israel as anything but a bully pushing around a smaller weaker people.

As far as I'm concerned, the United States is just as culpable because we fund them knowing that they're terrible actors.

I think all of this every single bit of it lies at the feet of the Israeli nation funded by US dollars and interests in that region . It is their responsibility and it is their fault it is all happening.

I say that without excusing in the tiniest bit the terrible and deeply evil acts that Hamas has done now and in the past there is no excuse for it, but there are reasons.

If we had a real leader for a president, he would be smacking netanyahu around with a big stick promising to cut funding unless they get their s*** together and give the Palestinian some breathing room and some autonomy over themselves and their own nation. It might even be possible to get hamas out of power while offering them their own nation and state.

I agree with you 100% about the grace. It's all I talk about even. but there is only one side that can do that and it's Israel and the United States... They have the power, the money and the land to give back.


I think Biden is an absolute disaster on this front. He is blowing an opportunity to make a massive difference for good in the world and I can't even begin to understand why.

Israel needs to apologize for all of the atrocities that they have committed. They need to give back what they have stolen. They need to vote out the right wing religious psychos who have eyes on even more land and not just from the Palestinians. They need to willingly create a genuine two-state solution.

You say it is a non-starter but that's just because of greed and dishonesty and lying on the part of Israel and the United States. But I think it is is a kist end to the conflict.

But this conflict goes much farther back than 1967. That's what I'm talking about with picking arbitrary time frames that benefit one side or the other.

Yes, Israel has acted poorly over the years. That's objectively true. They're also a tiny nation surrounded by countries that mostly hate them (some at best tolerate them, barely). They were attacked by half the Muslim world 20 years after the holocaust.

Your entire post was trashing Israel (much of which they deserve) but ignoring the role that others have played in this conflict. To come across as someone without an agenda is a tough chore when you start out with "Well of course I condemn what Hamas did but..." and then follow it up with numerous paragraphs detailing why it's all Israel's fault.

 

[Siver!]

Isn't Putin's whole thing that Russians were being attacked inside of Ukrainian territory? Which is actually something that really happened. I don't remember the Russians ever claiming that Ukraine was gonna attack Russia lol.

You'd be surprised.

https://www.courthousenews.com/putin-blames-nato-for-pushing-russia-into-invasion/

The whole lie was that if Ukraine joined NATO, they would pose a major threat to Russia and Russia had no choice but to "defend it's borders".

The reality was, if Ukraine joined NATO Putin would never again be able to subjugate the nation as one of it's subservient satellite states and he couldn't bear it. It hurt his pride.

While the angst in Russian-speaking Ukraine was real, Russia was extremely antagonistic throughout sending in soldiers without banners and thinking that would somehow fool anyone.

 

[HereticBD]

...

 

[terrapin]

But this conflict goes much farther back than 1967. That's what I'm talking about with picking arbitrary time frames that benefit one side or the other.

Yes, Israel has acted poorly over the years. That's objectively true. They're also a tiny nation surrounded by countries that mostly hate them (some at best tolerate them, barely). They were attacked by half the Muslim world 20 years after the holocaust.

Your entire post was trashing Israel (much of which they deserve) but ignoring the role that others have played in this conflict. To come across as someone without an agenda is a tough chore when you start out with "Well of course I condemn what Hamas did but..." and then follow it up with numerous paragraphs detailing why it's all Israel's fault.

I have not heard a single serious scholar mention any other possible starting place except those lines. Have you? Honestly man have you really?

I have listened to hours and hours of scholars talk about this and nobody who believes in the two-state solution is saying there's another reasonable place to start.

To your point about me mostly criticizing Israel I told you why that is. I think they are the primary aggressor here. I think they started it and I think they continue it and I think it's mostly on their shoulders to fix it. And I include the United States in that with the endless money we give them.

Let's say Israel did that. In 10 years later they started getting bombed by terrorists from Palestine it's athen very different conversation and you'd hear a different tone for me for sure.

 

[HereticBD]

I don't think there's a lot of reasonable debate to be had about what land should be returned. They should go back to when there was a two state solution. It's just that simple for any honest thinking human being without an agenda.

It's just that simple, huh? Draw a line, and everyone will abide by it. All the bloodthirsty religious differences between the two groups, will just cease to exist...

If it's so simple, why hasn't it worked?

 

[Barteh]

You'd be surprised.

https://www.courthousenews.com/putin-blames-nato-for-pushing-russia-into-invasion/

The whole lie was that if Ukraine joined NATO, they would pose a major threat to Russia and Russia had no choice but to "defend it's borders".

The reality was, if Ukraine joined NATO Putin would never again be able to subjugate the nation as one of it's subservient satellite states and he couldn't bear it. It hurt his pride.

While the angst in Russian-speaking Ukraine was real, Russia was extremely antagonistic throughout sending in soldiers without banners and thinking that would somehow fool anyone.

Ah right, from the NATO vs. Russia angle and not the Ukraine vs. Russia angle. Yeah, he obviously just wants to keep them inside his sphere of influence instead of the western one. I think it's been well documented that Putin's dream is to basically restore the soviet empire.

 

[Gas121]

Will be interesting to see who will be taking in Palestinians since Egypt and Jordan aren’t to interested which leaves the flood gates open to Europe. I can see this biting them on the arse and they’ll be heading there in droves.

 

[mkess101]

I have not heard a single serious scholar mention any other possible starting place except those lines. Have you? Honestly man have you really?

I have listened to hours and hours of scholars talk about this and nobody who believes in the two-state solution is saying there's another reasonable place to start.

To your point about me mostly criticizing Israel I told you why that is. I think they are the primary aggressor here. I think they started it and I think they continue it and I think it's mostly on their shoulders to fix it. And I include the United States in that with the endless money we give them.

Let's say Israel did that. In 10 years later they started getting bombed by terrorists from Palestine it's athen very different conversation and you'd hear a different tone for me for sure.

I think it's an awfully subjective thing to assign who's a "serious scholar" with a starting point 50 years ago for a conflict that's taken place over thousands of years.

Those in power do not want to give it up. Hamas has (relative) power in Palestine, and a charter that states a primary goal as the destruction of Israel. What on earth makes you think that they have any desire to relinquish that power or be reasonable? If Israel started rolling back settlements, Hamas undoubtedly would intensify their attacks and do everything they could to turn things into a shitshow. That's not in question, they literally tell us this themselves. There's no "if" terrorists were bombing them 10 years later...they wouldn't stop. They'd tell you them themselves. They already have, just read their charter!

 

[terrapin]

I think it's an awfully subjective thing to assign who's a "serious scholar" with a starting point 50 years ago for a conflict that's taken place over thousands of years.

Those in power do not want to give it up. Hamas has (relative) power in Palestine, and a charter that states a primary goal as the destruction of Israel. What on earth makes you think that they have any desire to relinquish that power or be reasonable? If Israel started rolling back settlements, Hamas undoubtedly would intensify their attacks and do everything they could to turn things into a shitshow. That's not in question, they literally tell us this themselves. There's no "if" terrorists were bombing them 10 years later...they wouldn't stop. They'd tell you them themselves. They already have, just read their charter!

I have never heard a decent argument for going further back than that from anybody who's serious.

I asked you if you have? Could you link some? because I really don't know of any. I mean that.. I've tried to look.

Just this week I listened to a woman scholar make the case for Israel and I really was prepared to hear her but she didn't make a single, decent argument. She mostly just appealed to the fact that it was the Jewish peoples land way back in biblical times and even dared to state that there was nothing wrong with taking land from the Palestinians because they weren't a nation!!! As if living on the land itself is not a claim for the land unless you are a nation!!

To be honest man, I think most people use that as an argument to obfuscate the fact that they don't want to draw serious lines, not because they actually believe there's debate about where to draw or when to draw them from.

Biden has really lost an opportunity here to solve a major conflict.

 

[shockaholic12]

I think it's an awfully subjective thing to assign who's a "serious scholar" with a starting point 50 years ago for a conflict that's taken place over thousands of years.

Those in power do not want to give it up. Hamas has (relative) power in Palestine, and a charter that states a primary goal as the destruction of Israel. What on earth makes you think that they have any desire to relinquish that power or be reasonable? If Israel started rolling back settlements, Hamas undoubtedly would intensify their attacks and do everything they could to turn things into a shitshow. That's not in question, they literally tell us this themselves. There's no "if" terrorists were bombing them 10 years later...they wouldn't stop. They'd tell you them themselves. They already have, just read their charter!

Hamas came to power because occupation breeds terrorism. Relax the occupation and hamas loses support.

 

[mkess101]

I have never heard a decent argument for going further back than that from anybody who's serious.

I asked you if you have? Could you link some? because I really don't know of any. I mean that.. I've tried to look.

Just this week I listened to a woman scholar make the case for Israel and I really was prepared to hear her but she didn't make a single, decent argument. She mostly just appealed to the fact that it was the Jewish peoples land way back in biblical times and even dared to state that there was nothing wrong with taking land from the Palestinians because they weren't a nation!!! As if living on the land itself is not a claim for the land unless you are a nation!!

To be honest man, I think most people use that as an argument to obfuscate the fact that they don't want to draw serious lines, not because they actually believe there's debate about where to draw or when to draw them from.

Biden has really lost an opportunity here to solve a major conflict.

But you haven't addressed the point that Hamas still wants Israel wiped off the map. They don't want a peaceful, 2 state solution. They'd undoubtedly make things LESS secure if this was proposed. Israel isn't going to ascribe to something that puts its people MORE at risk.

 

[HereticBD]

Hamas came to power because occupation breeds terrorism. Relax the occupation and hamas loses support.

Yeah, sure...

Israel would be just fine, if they would just lay down their weapons and stop attacking people who want them wiped off the face of the Earth. There is only a religious extremist element within ISLAM, because they are being "oppressed" by Israel. Okay...

Where do you guys get this shit?