In April fast-food workers in Cali will get $20 an hour

[RoastBeast]

Well, it's actually not (hint: there are lots of studies of the effects of MW hikes--you should look them up if you have minimal interest in whether partisan talking points are true). But more than that, you argued that people who want to raise MW aren't just wrong on the merits, but that they have some kind of evil, secret plot.



That proves your silly conspiracy theory? No. I would agree that there's basically no way to support four people on a single MW salary, and there never will be as long as labor costs are a significant input. But, of course, that isn't the goal of raising MW (and neither is it to keep people poor so they'll vote for the evil Other Party). The only way to address actual poverty in a modern, capitalistic economy is transfer payments. But raising incomes of low-paid workers is a separate, and valuable, goal.



Of course transferring money to poor people gets them out of poverty. That's true by definition. And we already do it to a significant degree. Almost half of the elderly population in America has a sub-poverty market income, but post-transfer, the number is less than 10%. And before SS, almost half the elderly population was in actual, post-transfer poverty. There's no magic effect where transfers disappear.

Who cares what the studies of min wage hikes say? The proof is the world we live in. They've never been effective beyond keeping up with inflation. You've also posted charts and studies in the past showing that inflation isn't nearly as bad as it is but we all know it's a crock. And yes, the Democrats will never improve the lives of their voting base beyond feeling like victims because if they no longer felt like victims, they would lose a large chunk of their voting base. They aren't stupid enough to shoot themselves in the foot. That's common sense. Not a conspiracy.

I wish I was still as naive as you to think that you can just transfer money to tens of millions of people to get them out of poverty without devastating effects happening to the economy and especially the middle class. Must be nice to put a bunch of money in people's hands and then suspend reality from that moment on and pretend as if it has no other effects on the economy. Supply and demand says hello again.

 

[Barteh]

Who cares what the studies of min wage hikes say? The proof is the world we live in. They've never been effective beyond keeping up with inflation. You've also posted charts and studies in the past showing that inflation isn't nearly as bad as it is but we all know it's a crock. And yes, the Democrats will never improve the lives of their voting base beyond feeling like victims because if they no longer felt like victims, they would lose a large chunk of their voting base. They aren't stupid enough to shoot themselves in the foot. That's common sense. Not a conspiracy.

I wish I was still as naive as you to think that you can just transfer money to tens of millions of people to get them out of poverty without devastating effects happening to the economy and especially the middle class. Must be nice to put a bunch of money in people's hands and then suspend reality from that moment on and pretend as if it has no other effects on the economy. Supply and demand says hello again.

I'd be embarrassed if my kids would still believe that shit when they're 12 years old.

 

[Loiosh]

This kind of hackish and conspiratorial thinking really degrades the group. The reason to raise MW is so that MW workers will have more money. If you're aware of any non-transfer-related solution to poverty, you should publish it, as you'd be the first person to discover it. What we see in reality is that all developed countries have a roughly similar level of pre-transfer poverty levels, and some have more transfers and thus lower post-transfer rates. It's an inevitable result of having half the population--mostly children, the disabled, and the elderly--not expected to or able to work.

A while back when the right was screaming that Walgrens was closing up stores because of theft (read: black people), Rebecca Watson released a video about why that was complete nonsense and she got a lot of heat about it. Two years later a series of reports came out proving she was exactly, one hundred percent right.

She just released a video explaining why Pizza Hut is absolutely not firing drivers because of the coming MW increase and her reasoning seems pretty sound.

I rarely use her as a source or post her videos because she's too quick off the mark for me and she's been catastrophically wrong before, but I'm pretty confident she's right this time.

I sincerely doubt the usual suspects would agree with her but I doubt any of them would bother watching the video and they're probably happy with getting cheap garbage food from an underpaid lower class.

I'll skip to the punchline: Grubhub and other gig workers are much, much cheaper and there's no overhead. That's another thing we should fix. She also gets extra points for referencing The Grapes of Wrath.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Who cares what the studies of min wage hikes say?

Anyone who is interested in knowing what happens after MW is hiked.

The proof is the world we live in. They've never been effective beyond keeping up with inflation. You've also posted charts and studies in the past showing that inflation isn't nearly as bad as it is but we all know it's a crock.

???

And yes, the Democrats will never improve the lives of their voting base beyond feeling like victims because if they no longer felt like victims, they would lose a large chunk of their voting base. They aren't stupid enough to shoot themselves in the foot. That's common sense. Not a conspiracy.

No, it's a conspiracy theory. It isn't just that someone disagrees with you about how to help people; the Other Party has to be conspiring to actively hurt people for no apparent motive.

I wish I was still as naive as you to think that you can just transfer money to tens of millions of people to get them out of poverty without devastating effects happening to the economy and especially the middle class.

What devastating effects do you think have resulted from Social Security?

 

[RoastBeast]

Anyone who is interested in knowing what happens after MW is hiked.



???



No, it's a conspiracy theory. It isn't just that someone disagrees with you about how to help people; the Other Party has to be conspiring to actively hurt people for no apparent motive.



What devastating effects do you think have resulted from Social Security?

Why are you bringing up social security? People pay into it for their whole lives and pull from it in retirement. That has nothing to do with your plan to transfer money to all the poor people for no exchange of work or services.

Go ahead and post all the studies you want and then try and find some successful minimum wage workers in the real world. The proof is the world we live in and that proof is that they are not successful, even when their pay is bumped up because the market always adjusts to it.

We had this talk before and you showed me some study where they gave a small amount of people like $500 a month or something and it showed that it helped them buy necessities and stay out of debt. That was your big show of proof that just handing people money for free makes everything better. Except that study lacked one crucial component, which is the fact that there is zero impact to the market by giving a couple hundred people some extra cash every month. You know what else would be successful? A study where they give 10 people $10 million a piece. That would definitely get them out of debt. More proof that just giving money to everyone is the answer. We could all be millionaires!

 

[blackheart]

Who cares what the studies of min wage hikes say?

You should have enough shame and self-awareness to know you should have left this one in the drafts pal

 

[RoastBeast]

You should have enough shame and self-awareness to know you should have left this one in the drafts pal

Show me all the minimum wage earners who now live better lives due to previous minimum wage hikes. I'll wait.

I literally explained why these studies are bullshit in my last posst but you didn't seem to comment on that for some reason. Might want to stay on the sidelines bro. You boys have yet to even comprehend how supply and demand works.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Why are you bringing up social security? People pay into it for their whole lives and pull from it in retirement. That has nothing to do with your plan to transfer money to all the poor people for no exchange of work or services.

I'm bringing up Social Security to illustrate how transfer payments reduce poverty. Read my post. I think it was pretty clear. I didn't offer any plan (if I ask nicely, will you try to get through a post without lying?). I just said that pre-transfer poverty is roughly the same in developed countries, but post-transfer poverty differs based on transfers. Also, to say workers pay taxes while they are working and get SS when they don't is no different from saying that kids benefit from SNAP while they are kids and then pay into it when they are working. They're still transfers.

We had this talk before and you showed me some study where they gave a small amount of people like $500 a month or something and it showed that it helped them buy necessities and stay out of debt. That was your big show of proof that just handing people money for free makes everything better. Except that study lacked one crucial component, which is the fact that there is zero impact to the market by giving a couple hundred people some extra cash every month. You know what else would be successful? A study where they give 10 people $10 million a piece. That would definitely get them out of debt. More proof that just giving money to everyone is the answer. We could all be millionaires!

I don't know what study you're referring to. SS is a clear example that contradicts your claim that transfer payments don't help recipients because of some kind of magical effect where it balances out. I think if you look at real-world programs, you'll see a record of success, but I agree that there is a level of support that would be counterproductive.

 

[RoastBeast]

I'm bringing up Social Security to illustrate how transfer payments reduce poverty. Read my post. I think it was pretty clear. I didn't offer any plan (if I ask nicely, will you try to get through a post without lying?). I just said that pre-transfer poverty is roughly the same in developed countries, but post-transfer poverty differs based on transfers. Also, to say workers pay taxes while they are working and get SS when they don't is no different from saying that kids benefit from SNAP while they are kids and then pay into it when they are working. They're still transfers.



I don't know what study you're referring to. SS is a clear example that contradicts your claim that transfer payments don't help recipients because of some kind of magical effect where it balances out. I think if you look at real-world programs, you'll see a record of success, but I agree that there is a level of support that would be counterproductive.

Where did I lie? Point it out.

Social security is not even remotely the same as just transferring the money to people who did not work for it. It's the worst possible example you could use to make your claim.



That is the study you cited in the past. I remember it was in Stockton CA.

 

[NoSmilez]

We are funny people. We will advocate for the replacement of fast food workers with computer screens but we will also get mad if there aren't cashiers available at Walmart.

Would you guys prefer we do all the ordering on a kiosk and the food comes to us through some sort of moving belt? The workers will be in the kitchen and we pay through an app or self checkout.

 

[evansusmc2]

Oh they CAN, they just don't want to and there's no real reason to. Unlike Europe there are no strong forces protecting workers rights. That's supposed to be the domain of the government, but they've been in the pocket of big business since before anyone on this board was born.

Where in Europe do you live? It seems like you guys are doing better but every time I visit Germany I get told about the massive amount of taxes they have to pay.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Where did I lie? Point it out.

Social security is not even remotely the same as just transferring the money to people who did not work for it. It's the worst possible example you could use to make your claim.



That is the study you cited in the past. I remember it was in Stockton CA.

I think you're confusing me with someone else. Not talking about anything like this anyway. Of course SS is a transfer. I don't really want to argue commonly accepted definitions here, though.

 

[Mike]

Where in Europe do you live? It seems like you guys are doing better but every time I visit Germany I get told about the massive amount of taxes they have to pay.

Oh I'm american, I was just contrasting our economic situation with what I hear from our European sherbros. Been getting hammered by the inflation for about 5 years now.

 

[Gutter Chris]

I dunno if you saw my post after that responding to @44nutman wondering same question, and how capitalism will work itself out

Part time delivery driver seems like one of the easiest jobs to hire an illegal migrant for. Pay under the table and/or promise enough via tips. Problem solved.

That is actually one of the reason major corporations favor globalist, open border policies. Perfect to keep wages down.

This is insane. There is no way in hell I would risk my business on some guy with no license and no insurance. That seems like a horrible thing to hire an illegal for.

 

[evansusmc2]

Oh I'm american, I was just contrasting our economic situation with what I hear from our European sherbros. Been getting hammered by the inflation for about 5 years now.

Inflation is a thing in all countries. The grass does seem greener on the other side but I've spent enough time hopping and out of Europe from 2010 to 2019. I know what I'm talking about.

 

[Topguntrophey]

How dare income increase while everything else like rent, housing, and food does.

Try another target for that finger to wag at.

 

[Mike]

Inflation is a thing in all countries. The grass does seem greener on the other side but I've spent enough time hopping and out of Europe from 2010 to 2019. I know what I'm talking about.

My original points were more that Europe has a living wage. I know inflation is hitting pretty much everywhere. But it's harder on the people that were already underpaid or underemployed

 

[lsa]

My original points were more that Europe has a living wage. I know inflation is hitting pretty much everywhere. But it's harder on the people that were already underpaid or underemployed

Living in Europe, with living wages, I pay approx 15 USD for a burger, fries, soft drink and coffee. And thats not BK or McD but made to order place.
Now I have not visited McD or BK for years, but I know I can easily get a meal for 8 -12 USD.

And thats with all the price raises because of inflation, war in Ukraine and so on.(sunflower oil went from 2USD /L to almost 5USD/L now its down to normal prices again)

 

[Mike]

Living in Europe, with living wages, I pay approx 15 USD for a burger, fries, soft drink and coffee. And thats not BK or McD but made to order place.
Now I have not visited McD or BK for years, but I know I can easily get a meal for 8 -12 USD.

And thats with all the price raises because of inflation, war in Ukraine and so on.(sunflower oil went from 2USD /L to almost 5USD/L now its down to normal prices again)

Yeah fast food here isn't much cheaper. They're already making enough profit to pay more there's just nobody to force them to and they'll never do it willingly.

 

[Iconoclast]

I support this. If I occasionally want to get an In N Out burger and it's more expensive so be it. It's expensive to live out here.