Sport BJJ blackbelt vs strong untrained dude who can punch, in a fight with strikes. Who takes it?

[CorninginChristianburg]

Lemme address this. I was NOT 200lbs when I was in the military, at the time of that story. Both my opponent and I were 170lbs.

Also: 200lbs is not "huge". The average American male weighs 197.9lbs (https://www.healthline.com/health/mens-health/average-weight-for-men).

Like I said: on a similar level with size and strength, BJJ allowed me to survive and even get to dominant positions against a pro MMA fighter.

Most people who are 197 pounds aren't in military shape.

Still, your story is maximally unhelpful. That guy, as a pro MMA fighter, learned Jiu Jitsu. You seem to be confused on this. MMA fighters learn jiu jitsu. Period. I know a couple at my bjj place. Look at any MMA fighter's instagram page, there are pictures of them rolling in Gis. So what actually happened in your story is one guy, in impeccable shape, who knew jiu jitsu rolled with another guy, also likely in impeccable shape, who also knew jiu jitsu and there was a stalemate. That's not actually that interesting of a story. Let's circle back to the prompt. The prompt is a bjj black belt vs a strong person with a strong punch. I think the black belt wins almost every time, as I mentioned before. But let's adjust to blue belt in light of your story. So a proper candidate for this "strong puncher" would be a bodybuilder, a boxer, a kickboxer, a muay thai artist, not an MMA fighter. Two guys who know jiu jitsu roll on the ground and maybe one happens to be more athletic or more well trained or even just have a favorable set of traits for the matchup and there is a stalemate. That's not an interesting, or relevant, story. Now let's consider different relevant aspects of the prompt. Not all bjj blue belts are extremely fit male soldiers who can take big time blows. And the prompt almost insinuates that the "strong guy" be bigger than the bjj guy, or they would both be "strong guys", so in kind, not all matchups are between guys of equal weight. If you'd been smaller, weaker, less fit, perhaps with a softer chin, that fight does not end the same way even if you had a blue belt. You called getting hit in the body and head repeatedly "jarring." I'm telling you, for a smaller person with some anatomical disadvantages, it is not jarring, it is debilitating. The fight would be over before it hit the ground.

 

[franklinstower]

Wtf was your instructor doing trying to shoplift, and how did you hear the story?
So if I am getting you right, your BJJ blackbelt instructor got his ass handed to him by random loss prevention guy while going for a heel hook, after being caught shoplifting? Strange story could you elaborate more.

Second example, random untrained coworker with maybe a bit of highschool wrestling roughs up BJJ blackbelt instructor who couldnt get the takedown and looked beat up after trying to pull guard a going for failed armbar. Sounds about right, any guy who did even a little bit of highschool wrestling in his youth would likely have enough takedown defence to neutralize even an experienced BJJ guy.
The skinned elbows - rolling on the hard floor not so nice as those soft mats. If the guy had wrestling or is just strong and big enough slamming the BJJ blackbelt on the floor would also have been quite possible but probably they just broke it up because it was getting messy.

People who train cant also be thieves? I dont think the story is strange at all.

 

[franklinstower]

Here's the key issue: by your own scenario, the other guy isn't trained to deal with strikes either.

If it's a choice between two green untested guys, then naturally, if one of them isn't actually green and untested (ie, he has training in some combat sport), you can be pretty confident betting on that person.

I honestly don't understand this mental block people seem to have; where if you do a sport with certain rules, you think you're not allowed to do anything outside those rules in some other situation? Says who? The rules say you're not allowed to throw punches in rugby either, i guess that other guy is fucked too eh?

What is it that people are really trying to argue here?

I like this point a lot. Boxers can kick to the balls and poke eyes out, grab you by the hair etc better than the vast majority of untrained guys out there. These are humans beings not characters in a movie.

 

[FatherSauce]

Most people who are 197 pounds aren't in military shape.

Still, your story is maximally unhelpful. That guy, as a pro MMA fighter, learned Jiu Jitsu. You seem to be confused on this. MMA fighters learn jiu jitsu. Period. I know a couple at my bjj place. Look at any MMA fighter's instagram page, there are pictures of them rolling in Gis. So what actually happened in your story is one guy, in impeccable shape, who knew jiu jitsu rolled with another guy, also likely in impeccable shape, who also knew jiu jitsu and there was a stalemate. That's not actually that interesting of a story. Let's circle back to the prompt. The prompt is a bjj black belt vs a strong person with a strong punch. I think the black belt wins almost every time, as I mentioned before. But let's adjust to blue belt in light of your story. So a proper candidate for this "strong puncher" would be a bodybuilder, a boxer, a kickboxer, a muay thai artist, not an MMA fighter. Two guys who know jiu jitsu roll on the ground and maybe one happens to be more athletic or more well trained or even just have a favorable set of traits for the matchup and there is a stalemate. That's not an interesting, or relevant, story. Now let's consider different relevant aspects of the prompt. Not all bjj blue belts are extremely fit male soldiers who can take big time blows. And the prompt almost insinuates that the "strong guy" be bigger than the bjj guy, or they would both be "strong guys", so in kind, not all matchups are between guys of equal weight. If you'd been smaller, weaker, less fit, perhaps with a softer chin, that fight does not end the same way even if you had a blue belt. You called getting hit in the body and head repeatedly "jarring." I'm telling you, for a smaller person with some anatomical disadvantages, it is not jarring, it is debilitating. The fight would be over before it hit the ground.

I think the other relevant fact was it was a tournament finals match. That means the two in shape trained guys beat all the other in shape less trained guys. Even with at least one of them being only kind of trained (blue belt).

 

[dmwalking]

Sport BJJ black belt vs strong guy= black belt wins. Even with strikes mixed in, I doubt that an untrained guy can land a single decent punch on a well trained person. I'm not even a black belt and I can attest to this. Not a single punch landed but I was in total control. So if I can do it using super basic ass BJJ, I'm sure a high level black belt could do it even easier. As long as they don't pull guard. LOL

 

[dmwalking]

Watch that Eddie Bravo event where you can throw slaps. Many sport BJJ guys turtle up from them. One guy ate so many from mount without even attempting to escape, because he froze up for a long time, the fight got stopped....from slaps.

Probably already been said, but in EBI, both guys know jiu jitsu so it's not really relevant to OP's scenario. We're talking trained vs untrained but strong. Trained wins.

 

[mattemate]

Probably already been said, but in EBI, both guys know jiu jitsu so it's not really relevant to OP's scenario. We're talking trained vs untrained but strong. Trained wins.

Right, the guy doing the slapping had to get into a dominant position to do so. Untrained guy ain't getting there unless he lands a haymaker and drops the bjjer.

Also, think the answer to this thread is Demian Maia. He's shown the ability to shoot, pull half, get the underhook to the back or come up on a single. And he's done it to good wrestlers.

Even against a good wrestler, if wrestling is all he knows and we're in street clothes, I like that as a strategy. Pulling guard isn't necessarily the best idea in a street fight, but remember when Chael double legged Vanderlei on concrete? It fucked him up. I prefer a Maia type strategy.

Anyway this thread is getting really bad and it's pretty dumb. We all know the answer already.

 

[SandisLL]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXvdglopl68

This about sportsmans, when bouts with highly different weight happened.
Good choice of bouts in this video, worth just to watch it.
There text is in russian but salt is just to watch fighters, not listen or read texts.

 

[dmwalking]

Right, the guy doing the slapping had to get into a dominant position to do so. Untrained guy ain't getting there unless he lands a haymaker and drops the bjjer.

Also, think the answer to this thread is Demian Maia. He's shown the ability to shoot, pull half, get the underhook to the back or come up on a single. And he's done it to good wrestlers.

Even against a good wrestler, if wrestling is all he knows and we're in street clothes, I like that as a strategy. Pulling guard isn't necessarily the best idea in a street fight, but remember when Chael double legged Vanderlei on concrete? It fucked him up. I prefer a Maia type strategy.

Anyway this thread is getting really bad and it's pretty dumb. We all know the answer already.

Thank god I didn’t read though it.

 

[dmwalking]

Right, the guy doing the slapping had to get into a dominant position to do so. Untrained guy ain't getting there unless he lands a haymaker and drops the bjjer.

Also, think the answer to this thread is Demian Maia. He's shown the ability to shoot, pull half, get the underhook to the back or come up on a single. And he's done it to good wrestlers.

Even against a good wrestler, if wrestling is all he knows and we're in street clothes, I like that as a strategy. Pulling guard isn't necessarily the best idea in a street fight, but remember when Chael double legged Vanderlei on concrete? It fucked him up. I prefer a Maia type strategy.

Anyway this thread is getting really bad and it's pretty dumb. We all know the answer already.

Also, to each his own, but I just don’t like pulling guard in self defense. Rolling on soft mats, I pull guard half the time. But for defenses I’m more of a body lock trip guy. I was the guy on top and I still got scraped up on a brick terrace. Definitely wouldn’t want to be on my back or side. But it’s a matter of preference. Whatever works best for you or anyone else.

 

[Headkicktoleg]

I'm a purple belt and i'm very confidant I would easily tap any untrained guy even if I pulled guard. In fact about a year ago my buddy who is a rugby player joined my gym. Even with him having 40 lbs on me I could do anything I wanted to him at will.

 

[TheMaster]

Also, to each his own, but I just don’t like pulling guard in self defense. Rolling on soft mats, I pull guard half the time. But for defenses I’m more of a body lock trip guy. I was the guy on top and I still got scraped up on a brick terrace. Definitely wouldn’t want to be on my back or side. But it’s a matter of preference. Whatever works best for you or anyone else.

That is right. BJJ although a ground fighting style, is a grappling art that fails to realize or train that the ground itself can be the most dangerous weapon from a hard slam or throw.



The vid was two even sized opponents. The BJJ bb is KOd stiff from the slam on hard mat.

Now, lets say the bigger stronger untrained guy is on top, is it feasable he could slam the BJJ bb on the concrete and finish in a similar way? It wasnt a technical slam, more a raw stength pickup and drop.
Or even that the untrained dude got the takedown and that finished it by itself or injured the BJJ guy especially if he had played some football for example?

It is a real risk, and consequences of a big guy slamming you on concrete could be lethal. This risk alone in my view nullifies much of a bottom game against a big guy, the option is to sweep or try and scramble immediately and get up or move position if on the bottom even against an untrained bigger stronger guy if on a hard surface.

 

[TheMaster]

People who train cant also be thieves? I dont think the story is strange at all.

Well maybe your attitude reflects how far martial arts have fallen since the 'rise' of mma. I mean watch what Masvidal just did to Askren with the followups and proud of it, tattoo culture with its associations etc.

Martial arts training, especially Judo and derivative styles like BJJ were intended to make one an honorable well rounded human being not just someone who learned dangerous techniques.

If one reached black belt level in martial arts, and further became an instructor of others then the code of standards to be a good human should be there also otherwise u make the whole school and system look bad.
So yes, I consider it highly strange that a martial artist at that level would behave that way. More comical however is that the random loss prevention guy whooped the BJJ blackbelt instructors ass as he went for a submission. So a double loss and humiliation for him.

 

[dmwalking]

That is right. BJJ although a ground fighting style, is a grappling art that fails to realize or train that the ground itself can be the most dangerous weapon from a hard slam or throw.



The vid was two even sized opponents. The BJJ bb is KOd stiff from the slam on hard mat.

Now, lets say the bigger stronger untrained guy is on top, is it feasable he could slam the BJJ bb on the concrete and finish in a similar way? It wasnt a technical slam, more a raw stength pickup and drop.
Or even that the untrained dude got the takedown and that finished it by itself or injured the BJJ guy especially if he had played some football for example?

It is a real risk, and consequences of a big guy slamming you on concrete could be lethal. This risk alone in my view nullifies much of a bottom game against a big guy, the option is to sweep or try and scramble immediately and get up or move position if on the bottom even against an untrained bigger stronger guy if on a hard surface.

We have similar philosophies. I’ve been slammed from a bottom arm bar position. Or at least they tried. That’s when I learned that I’d rather never do that again. Since then, I’ve adjusted my guard game to be more focused on sweeps, reversals, and arm drags to the back. Even if I get a sub from bottom, I like to try to roll on top or tip them to their side.

Slams are a very real threat and you don’t need to be trained for an adrenaline rush act of desperation. That’s just not a risk I’m willing to take. I love the sport aspect of Bjj. I really do. But I started learning Bjj to defend myself. So that’s why my game is the way it is. I want to be on top. That’s the safest place to be.

 

[dmwalking]

Well maybe your attitude reflects how far martial arts have fallen since the 'rise' of mma. I mean watch what Masvidal just did to Askren with the followups and proud of it, tattoo culture with its associations etc.

Martial arts training, especially Judo and derivative styles like BJJ were intended to make one an honorable well rounded human being not just someone who learned dangerous techniques.

If one reached black belt level in martial arts, and further became an instructor of others then the code of standards to be a good human should be there also otherwise u make the whole school and system look bad.
So yes, I consider it highly strange that a martial artist at that level would behave that way. More comical however is that the random loss prevention guy whooped the BJJ blackbelt instructors ass as he went for a submission. So a double loss and humiliation for him.

To each his own, but I’ve had enough experience that I call bull on the whole honorable martial artist trope. Half these Bjj guys are on steroids. Half these guys are creepy sex predators. Half these guys treat new white belts like crap. And it’s been like this for a loooooong time. Way before MMA hit the states.

I believe it’s up to the individual to want to be honorable. But martial arts in itself is not some magic pill. I don’t have that expectation of any martial artist. I let their behavior speak for itself rather than assume they’re a good person because they train.

I also don’t believe in the douchebag filter belief That Bjj filters out the douchebags. From my experience, the douchebags who have a big enough ego that they refuse to lose...those guys get better and become even bigger douchebags.

Martial arts are a tool, not a moralistic philosophy. It’s up to each individual to choose to be self disciplined and honorable. But it doesn’t always go that way.

Also, tattoo culture has nothing to do with being a dishonorable person. Some of the nicest people I’ve ever met are tatted from head to toe. You’re pretty judgmental. Get out of your bubble sometime.

 

[TheMaster]

To each his own, but I’ve had enough experience that I call bull on the whole honorable martial artist trope. Half these Bjj guys are on steroids. Half these guys are creepy sex predators. Half these guys treat new white belts like crap. And it’s been like this for a loooooong time. Way before MMA hit the states.

I believe it’s up to the individual to want to be honorable. But martial arts in itself is not some magic pill. I don’t have that expectation of any martial artist. I let their behavior speak for itself rather than assume they’re a good person because they train.

I also don’t believe in the douchebag filter belief That Bjj filters out the douchebags. From my experience, the douchebags who have a big enough ego that they refuse to lose...those guys get better and become even bigger douchebags.

Martial arts are a tool, not a moralistic philosophy. It’s up to each individual to choose to be self disciplined and honorable. But it doesn’t always go that way.

Also, tattoo culture has nothing to do with being a dishonorable person. Some of the nicest people I’ve ever met are tatted from head to toe. You’re pretty judgmental. Get out of your bubble sometime.

You may not buy into it but this code is not some esoteric or idealistic image, it IS part of what modern martial arts which basically began with Judo, was founded upon.



This aspect was and still is much more strongly held in the Judo community to this day.
When Kano developed Judo and the spread it around the world and to Brazil etc, it was the complete system including ethics.
Doesnt surprise me things have deteriorated so far in BJJ today and u find creeps in all areas of life but there is a filtering mechanism in Judo by its nature, it preserves the Samurai or Bushido code much more and this was present in most martial/military arts and still is at least in principle.

As to tattoos, for sure there are many great guys with them but no denying the original negative origins and associations and 'street' image but now it has become mainstream body art for some. But its still in some places associated with prison culture. It is part of mma culture not for 'body art' but in the violent associations. But that is a small detail, it is about the person you are on the inside, competition in general can breed ego if not kept in check as u mentioned and this is part of the issue.

 

[yetanother]

I never met anyone with neck or face tattoo that I liked. Either criminals, hipster or street rats.

 

[dmwalking]

I never met anyone with neck or face tattoo that I liked. Either criminals, hipster or street rats.

You probably didn’t even give them a chance. Just disliked them from the beginning because of the tattoo.

 

[dmwalking]

You may not buy into it but this code is not some esoteric or idealistic image, it IS part of what modern martial arts which basically began with Judo, was founded upon.

View attachment 612459

This aspect was and still is much more strongly held in the Judo community to this day.
When Kano developed Judo and the spread it around the world and to Brazil etc, it was the complete system including ethics.
Doesnt surprise me things have deteriorated so far in BJJ today and u find creeps in all areas of life but there is a filtering mechanism in Judo by its nature, it preserves the Samurai or Bushido code much more and this was present in most martial/military arts and still is at least in principle.

As to tattoos, for sure there are many great guys with them but no denying the original negative origins and associations and 'street' image but now it has become mainstream body art for some. But its still in some places associated with prison culture. It is part of mma culture not for 'body art' but in the violent associations. But that is a small detail, it is about the person you are on the inside, competition in general can breed ego if not kept in check as u mentioned and this is part of the issue.

People say a lot and do a lot of other things. Just because it was said and built in doesn’t mean everyone abided by it. Like I said, to each their own. If that’s how you want to do it, do It that way. I don’t need martial arts to teach me anything other than martial arts.

As far as tattoos, the past is irrelevant to the present when it comes to dealing with others. You have to deal with who they are now. So I don’t think it’s fair to conflate tattoo culture with the degradation of honor in martial arts. That’s like saying tattoo culture made nba players more violent. It didn’t. There were far more brawls back in the day. Tattoo culture had no impact on martial arts. The meathead culture did.

 

[SandisLL]

I have nothing against guys with tattos.
I don't agree that teach arts without Codex is good practice. Long philosophical conversations doesn't likes me, however even some boxing clubs teaches beginners behaviour ethics, especially teenagers beginners. If club has codex, it isn't good for club that their clients beat people on streets, on regular basis clients are delivered to intensive care units from sparrings in club etc. The value of codex is to keep up business and don't send to touranments psychopats to blame reputation.

Japanesse arts might be taught as for sport, for self defense or as a Budo.