Sport BJJ blackbelt vs strong untrained dude who can punch, in a fight with strikes. Who takes it?

[shunyata]

First BJJ class went 3 mins before I had to give up for the rest of the class (10-15 mins total sparring). People seriously underestimate how quickly someone will get tired from grappling in a situation like that when they have no experience.

Even crossfit dudes who can do pure distance running for much longer than I can and are washboard ripped and guys who played football in college can be sucking air after a 5 minute round and barely able to stand again while fat blue belts are ready to go for round 2.

The anaerobic endurance needed for competitive grappling is a different animal to most fitness enthusiasts and people who don't have experience in it tend to gas really hard really fast until they acclimate and learn how to control their heart rate through repeated training / sparring.

 

[Gl0kta]

The anaerobic endurance needed for competitive grappling is a different animal to most fitness enthusiasts and people who don't have experience in it tend to gas really hard really fast until they acclimate and learn how to control their heart rate through repeated training / sparring.

Nah the fitness is the same it's just how the gas tank is used & you can waste alot of gas in bjj to little effect unless you know what your doing.

Similar to running a 1500m like it's a 100m and being confused why the other guys are smoking your time without breaking a sweat.

 

[yetanother]

Interesting question for entrtainemt purposes.
Take quick football player in good athletic shape, 220 lbs or more, issue him for example boots used by railroad labourers in work on railroad.
Instruct him how to kick nasty low kicks, including streetwise direct type frotnal kicks to lower leg and some other small shits for 4 - 8 hours drilling.
Then I think, even 2 nd degree belt will not help if he managed to land 2 - 4 decent kicks. Football players can kick with unbelievable even for martial arts trainers force.

You mean soccer players? They rarely are 220lbs. You can be a pro football player making a ton of money while being skinny fat.

 

[drabon74]

When I was a 2 stripe blue belt I was at a party and I had some aquaintances begin bragging about all the fight they had won. After a few minutes I interjected that they should get proper training before mouthing off all the time. I had 2 guys both say they could hang with me, after all I’m 20lbs smaller and 10 years older. I tell the weaker of the 2 that I’ll beat him and never throw a punch, he can do anything he wants including punches. 1st go at it the guy try’s a sloppy haymaker then dive in to clinch me. I slide back and half sprawl, then lock up a guillotine which makes the guy beg for mercy then complain that I have injured his neck. 2nd guy has no interest in giving it a go, but does inquire about where I train.
I am by no means intimidating, but when you train against really good partners it’s easy to lose perspective on how easy it is to maul someone untrained. Black belt level not needed either, a decent blue belt is enough.

 

[sb413197]

I would certainly hope the BJJ guy would win. Anything can happen in a fight but you're comparing a guy who has spent presumably thousands of hours becoming an expert in at least one of the three big aspects of fighting (ground) and hopefully at least decent in another (takedowns), against someone with zilch training. One would assume the guy who is untrained would get destroyed.

It does make me wonder though if a bit of MMA training should be blended in with BJJ training to round it out - I know it is anyway in a lot of schools. I'm not sure how good a use of time the self defense stuff really is but some MMA sparring would probably be a nice thing for the sport to make sure it doesn't lose touch with its combat roots?

Then again, if MMA training were part of most schools, I would probably skip those days - I just like BJJ.

 

[rmongler]

Even crossfit dudes who can do pure distance running for much longer than I can and are washboard ripped and guys who played football in college can be sucking air after a 5 minute round and barely able to stand again while fat blue belts are ready to go for round 2.

The anaerobic endurance needed for competitive grappling is a different animal to most fitness enthusiasts and people who don't have experience in it tend to gas really hard really fast until they acclimate and learn how to control their heart rate through repeated training / sparring.

A significant part, perhaps the most significant part, of realworld endurance in practice, is efficiency/resolution of the motor engrams for that movement.

Someone not practiced in a certain range of movements will have undeveloped engrams for those movements, hence will have jerky inefficient movements in those situations, and hence will gas out in a matter of minutes.

 

[TheJewBear]

Alright so 8 years ago I was a shitty blue belt and did zero stand up or MMA. Then I did an army MACP tournament and the finals was a pankration fight. I had to fight a pro MMA fighter.

It was definitely very jarring to get hit in the head and body repeatedly. I was really getting my ass kicked, flailing around trying to grab the dude.
Eventually I got a hold of him, kind of "fell" to my guard but held on to his jacket. He was wailing away on me and it was hard to think of the right move.
Eventually I was able to tripod sweep him to his butt, and I came up on top to half guard. I passed his half guard easily and settled into side control. I was going to go for a step-over choke using his collar, but I was so scared/hyped up/had tunnel vision, I didn't realize he sneaked his nearside arm across my hips and did the "spinning" escape to turtle. I came up on top in turtle, failed to insert my hooks as I fell to try and take his back. He stood up and began wailing on me again. Ref stood us up and the fight was stopped after I suffered an eye poke.

Analysis: A very bad BJJ blue belt with zero stand-up/striking training held his own against a pro MMA fighter and even took dominant positions before ultimately being out-grappled and out-struck.

Now that I've had almost a decade of more training since then, I am VERY confident that if I traveled back in time as the brown belt that I now am, and fought that pro MMA guy again, I would struggle on the feet of course but I would close the distance, either taken him down or pull guard/sweep quickly or finish him within 2-3 minutes.

Now if I were to fight an UNTRAINED guy? I don't see how an untrained guy who lifts weights/takes steroids could fuck me up in a fight. My jiu-jitsu was battle-tested and I am 10x the grappler now than I was then. Not even a contest.

 

[Pierced7681]

Alright so 8 years ago I was a shitty blue belt and did zero stand up or MMA. Then I did an army MACP tournament and the finals was a pankration fight. I had to fight a pro MMA fighter.

It was definitely very jarring to get hit in the head and body repeatedly. I was really getting my ass kicked, flailing around trying to grab the dude.
Eventually I got a hold of him, kind of "fell" to my guard but held on to his jacket. He was wailing away on me and it was hard to think of the right move.
Eventually I was able to tripod sweep him to his butt, and I came up on top to half guard. I passed his half guard easily and settled into side control. I was going to go for a step-over choke using his collar, but I was so scared/hyped up/had tunnel vision, I didn't realize he sneaked his nearside arm across my hips and did the "spinning" escape to turtle. I came up on top in turtle, failed to insert my hooks as I fell to try and take his back. He stood up and began wailing on me again. Ref stood us up and the fight was stopped after I suffered an eye poke.

Analysis: A very bad BJJ blue belt with zero stand-up/striking training held his own against a pro MMA fighter and even took dominant positions before ultimately being out-grappled and out-struck.

Now that I've had almost a decade of more training since then, I am VERY confident that if I traveled back in time as the brown belt that I now am, and fought that pro MMA guy again, I would struggle on the feet of course but I would close the distance, either taken him down or pull guard/sweep quickly or finish him within 2-3 minutes.

Now if I were to fight an UNTRAINED guy? I don't see how an untrained guy who lifts weights/takes steroids could fuck me up in a fight. My jiu-jitsu was battle-tested and I am 10x the grappler now than I was then. Not even a contest.

What if the steroid guy who lifts picks you up and slams you on your head on the concrete?

 

[TheJewBear]

^ It's possible, but I'm not small at >200lbs. Maybe if it's a guy like The Mountain or something.

OP's proposition was if the untrained guy had 25lbs on you. So a 230lb dude with no training and doesn't know any takedowns? I don't see him picking me up and throwing a 200lb brown belt on his head, although I concede it's a possibility. Anything can happen in a fight.

What's your take on it, with your experience and training?

 

[SandisLL]

You mean soccer players?

Well, I mean football f.e. as in Europe. I don't know about football in US.
So from my experience football players adults males might be 177 cm height, might be 194 cm height and their weight might be 75kg , some are 110 kg ( kilograms ). Sorry, I don't use kg to lbs convertor for this post.
Kicks I mean low kicks, especially below knee level. Common for them height, so I think more muscle memory already developed for these kicks.

I sometimes was used to hold kicking pad for football player, who just wished to learn few simple kicks for SD. He was ~ 98 kg. Relatively quickly learned and I remeber, how " weak " kicker he was, I drilled with him mainly medium high kicks, so I developed opinion, that I don't wish recieve from him real kick, especially low and save the Lord, straight direct ( frontal ) kick to lower leg with boot.

 

[NoSmilez]

Untrained guy loses. I grappled some huge sherdogger newbie fellow like 6'5 and 300 lbs. I was a bit worried in the beginning but when he got tired; I felt like Tito when he realized Chuck couldn't hurt him.

 

[CorninginChristianburg]

The prompt is stupid. But there are a lot of places which produce blue belts I'd take a street guy over. Most black belts know at least some wrestling, so they'd win basically any street fight against an untrained opponent. But a lot of blue belts from different places know very little or no wrestling.

Here's the biggest problem. Most people who join a BJJ gym, in my experience, join for like 2 weeks and quit. The attrition rate is like the attrition rate for people going to the gym after New Year's Resolutions. Maybe less than 1% of the American population has stepped in a bjj gym, and of that number, the largest demographic is white belts. And there are more blue belts than purple belts. More purple belts than brown belts. Your chance of encountering a black belt in the wild, while much more frequent today than 20 years ago, is still like the chance you'll encounter a legendary pokemon walking in the pokeworld. The vast majority of people who need BJJ for self defense the most often do not have the skill. We could debate until we're blue in the face whether BJJ is better or judo is better, or muay thai, wrestling, western boxing.

But even if you are a serious taekwondo practitioner and competitor, and you're fighting someone who went to the BJJ gym 2 times before "work got busy" or "this show got released", I'd give you great odds, though BJJ is definitely better than taekwondo. If you do something seriously, it's better than doing nothing seriously. If someone is so serious about BJJ that they have a black belt? Don't know why anyone would pick the street guy.

 

[CorninginChristianburg]

^ It's possible, but I'm not small at >200lbs. Maybe if it's a guy like The Mountain or something.

Well this is the problem with your story. You're a huge guy. And if you were in the army, so you're in good shape, and probably somewhat athletic as a result. This hypothetical is "sport bjj vs strong guy". You are the strong guy! Now, I don't know if there were weight classes and the guy you were fighting was a lot smaller. But even if he was your size, at UFC HW size, you have the ability to take huge shots that would crumble a 150 pound man, much less a 115 pound woman.

Now, as I said in my post, I obviously don't think an untrained strong person could beat a black belt in BJJ, or at least with any consistency (there's always a puncher's chance or freak accidents). But the MMA guy in your story was probably also a BJJ practitioner, because he would cross-train, and he did that professionally. If anything, I think your story just demonstrates that a huge athletic male with limited training can hang with much better trained opponents, which isn't really the message of jiu jitsu.

 

[Evenflow80]

As a 37 y.o blue belt who trains 5 times a week and has competed a few times , I'd like to say yes?

Hard to say if I'm being honest though . I mean my take downs are better than when I started but if a real fight were to break out I'm not sure how I would do to take to the ground .

If it hits the ground though I feel pretty confident . I'd stick to basics like side mount and either transition to full mount or take the back since I have strong feeling they will roll away and give their back to me.

It's hard to punch someone when you are on the ground on your back . The problem is getting it down there to begin with . I'm 170lbs and even the new guys who are 220lbs or more I imagine if have a hard time dragging them to the ground due to size difference

 

[TheJewBear]

Well this is the problem with your story. You're a huge guy. And if you were in the army, so you're in good shape, and probably somewhat athletic as a result. This hypothetical is "sport bjj vs strong guy". You are the strong guy! Now, I don't know if there were weight classes and the guy you were fighting was a lot smaller. But even if he was your size, at UFC HW size, you have the ability to take huge shots that would crumble a 150 pound man, much less a 115 pound woman.

Now, as I said in my post, I obviously don't think an untrained strong person could beat a black belt in BJJ, or at least with any consistency (there's always a puncher's chance or freak accidents). But the MMA guy in your story was probably also a BJJ practitioner, because he would cross-train, and he did that professionally. If anything, I think your story just demonstrates that a huge athletic male with limited training can hang with much better trained opponents, which isn't really the message of jiu jitsu.

Lemme address this. I was NOT 200lbs when I was in the military, at the time of that story. Both my opponent and I were 170lbs.

Also: 200lbs is not "huge". The average American male weighs 197.9lbs (https://www.healthline.com/health/mens-health/average-weight-for-men).

Like I said: on a similar level with size and strength, BJJ allowed me to survive and even get to dominant positions against a pro MMA fighter.

 

[SandisLL]

Well, it isn't possible to compare MMA against any single Art, because MMA is Mixed MA. They usually had training in at least 2 arts, some even in 5 or 6 arts. Combination of arts depends from each individual.
If we wish, we can call any system used for Service applications as Mixed arts, because usually they all are hybrids.
Pro fighter, there also difference in their levels so huge.
Arts used in MMA?
Some are with these Black belts in BJJ, some with multiple belts in bunch of Arts, some with training in wrestling and boxing plus just does a few types of kicks.

The most common misconceptions are that a) MMA fighters almost all never were trained in TMA type of arts
b) kickboxers almost all doesn't have previous training in other arts ( especially invalid opinion for europe; decade and more than decade ago was popular thing to bring kids to some TMA type style and switch to KB in their teenage years ).

 

[Davem10]

Depends on the people

Let's say the bjj guy was the nerdy chess playing type who just loves the thinking element

And his opponent is a violent savage with no care for human life

The opponent will be biting and tearing flesh, gauging eyes etc if the fight hits the floor

That would probably unsettle some folk. A jarring finger into the eye can quickly cause panic and you forget all your training and focus on the pain and the fact you may be blind. Then he gets up and smashes your head in

Another bjj guy may get eye gouged and just go bezerk and snap something immediately on the opponent

Who knows

I'd likely take the trained guy though, assuming he has the instinct to hurt when I'm danger

 

[Pierced7681]

^ It's possible, but I'm not small at >200lbs. Maybe if it's a guy like The Mountain or something.

OP's proposition was if the untrained guy had 25lbs on you. So a 230lb dude with no training and doesn't know any takedowns? I don't see him picking me up and throwing a 200lb brown belt on his head, although I concede it's a possibility. Anything can happen in a fight.

What's your take on it, with your experience and training?

I used to compete at featherweight. I had a 185 lb amateur mma dude once lift me up like I was nothing and he could’ve spiked me on my head if he’d wanted to but he didn’t. Reality kicked in then that bjj isn’t all it’s cracked up to be if you’re fighting on cement against a strong guy twice your size who has street fighting experience.

 

[TheJewBear]

I used to compete at featherweight. I had a 185 lb amateur mma dude once lift me up like I was nothing and he could’ve spiked me on my head if he’d wanted to but he didn’t. Reality kicked in then that bjj isn’t all it’s cracked up to be if you’re fighting on cement against a guy twice your size.

Ok...Featherweight (145lbs right?) is pretty small for a grown man. I wouldn't hold that against BJJ, specifically. And the guy was a middleweight MMA fighter? Come on, that's pretty far away from OP's question.

Yes, I'm sure a strong middleweight MMA fighter could pick up and throw a 145lb person.

Are you a black belt in BJJ?

 

[Pierced7681]

Ok...Featherweight (145lbs right?) is pretty small for a grown man. I wouldn't hold that against BJJ, specifically. And the guy was a middleweight MMA fighter? Come on, that's pretty far away from OP's question.

Yes, I'm sure a strong middleweight MMA fighter could pick up and throw a 145lb person.

Are you a black belt in BJJ?

154 with a gi on last I checked. He was an amateur middleweight mma fighter, but he had no martial arts background other than street fighting. He was ridiculously strong and could literally have killed me if he’d wanted to by spiking me on my head. Anytime we’d roll I’d be able to hold him off and I subbed him once or twice in like six years.

I’m a two stripe blue belt. Trained for around 8-9 years five days a week in bjj before I retired.