Elections The Freemasons have a Significant Leak in Arizona

[DoctorTaco]

You mean when they take a sip of wine and eat some bread?

So you don’t believe in the doctrine of transubstantiation?

 

[Kohelet]

I don't know if Freemasons' rituals are taken from the Talmud. I haven't researched it. Just because they are speaking English doesn't mean that their rituals aren't taken from the Talmud. However I suppose we can say that as the English is archaic it was either translated a long time ago, or someone translated it as such to give the ambience of taking place long ago.

I tried to translate and they don't sound hebrew or aramaic in any way

 

[Teppodama]

I tried to translate and they don't sound hebrew or aramaic in any way

They are not. Of the three foundational degrees of Freemasonry, also called Blue Lodge Masonry, the only specifically religious verbage is pulled from the biblical Old Testement for specific use at specific points in the ceremonies. I am not sure of the equivalent in the Quran for muslim brothers wishing to have a ceremony more tailored to their own personal faith which in fact is their right to request. I would imagine there are similar passages within the Quran stating the same particular point the Christian-ccentric ceremony uses the Bible for at that particular point in the ceremony.

It would be the same for a Jewish brother wishing to use the Talmut as their chosen sacred text during the ceremony. As notes, modern Freemasonry is non-denominational in that way. Early Freemasonry evolved within a Christian society and was heavily influenced by Christian thought which is why so much of Freemasonry still carries much of the influence of Christianity. But many hands have stirred the pot of Freemasonry and much esoteric thought and symbology has evolved into the Fraternity, its rites and its philosophy.

 

[Teppodama]

So you don’t believe in the doctrine of transubstantiation?

I know you're not asking me but ...Consubstantiation. In that while the bread and wine may feed the physical body, the faith in what it symbolizes transforms it into nourishment for the spiritual body as well. “Then Jesus declared, 'I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty'” - John 8:35 I believe he meant that in a spiritual sense as none of Jesus's doctrine really had much to do with the physical world aside from telling everyone how immaterial it is compared to the spiritual world and preparing one's self for it.

 

[OneOfOne]

Freemasonry is a fraternity of deep traditions, this can be seen in usage of rather archaic language in much of its ceremonies. Much of what we recognize as "modern" Freemasonry comes from a time when social station meant rather a lot to how one interacted with those around them. Within the lodge was a rare opportunity for one to speak with those that more normally be their social superiors but within the confines of the lodge were merely peers unless they were actually officers of the lodge in which case they were due the deference any office of the lodge can expect while they hold that position. Lodges were places for men to speak their minds, share their ideas and seek to better themselves philosophically, intellectually and spiritually by the sharing of those ideas. For many of lower station to feel free and comfortable to do so without fear of repercussions would require oaths of secrecy that what was said within the lodge with brother masons remained within the lodge. A place where theoretically for a time All men set aside their differences and are equal.

If I can't expect you to keep secret the various rituals and trapping of Masonry that you swear to keep secret how could I possibly expect you to keep secret anything else I might say that could have repercussions to me outside of the lodge professional or socially? If you were my social superior at that time it would be unlikely I would call you out on boorish behavior in public but within in the confines of the lodge I might speak more freely with the understanding that my thoughts and our discussion was within the boundries of the lodge and would remain there. Now does that mean shit didn't follow people out of the lodge, of course not but it was the principle.

Also, given Western intolerance for anything that might possibly conflict with Christian orthodoxy or at the time, the authority of the Catholic church, anything that might smack of foreign beliefs or allegiance to anything other than the state or the state's representative was obviously anathema.

At the end of the day given how much of Freemasonry information is out on the internet for view, adherence to the traditions of secrecy is itself simply tradition and the vows an expression of one's ability to hold their fellow brother's in confidence.

Priest's hear confession and do not divulge what is told them. How is that truly any different than Freemasons keeping faith with our brother's lives and thoughts? How are the rituals and ceremonies conducted by Freemasons any more sinister or harmful than any conducted by college fraternities? If a particular person that identifies as a Freemason turns out to be a despicable person, does that mean the whole Fraternity is rotten or just that person and any lodge that condones his actions? Remember, Freemasons are a shared brotherhood but each state is autonomous from every other state with no central US authority and each lodge within a state is autonomous from all other regular lodges answering only to the Grand Lodge of that state which provides its charter.

Judging my lodge by the actions of another lodge in my state or a lodge in another state would be the same as me judging all of a group like Black Lives Matter by the actions of some leader of a chapter of a state for their unscrupulous actions, like diverting funds for their own personal use.

I 100% believe your experience in Freemasonry is what you say it is. Im positive your characterization of Freemasonry is what you truly believe it is. However, I 1000% disagree that Freemasonry is how you describe it to. Lets consider for a moment what renowned Freemason Manly P Hall has written about Freemasonry:

FREEMASONRY is a fraternity within a fraternity—an outer organization concealing an inner brotherhood of the elect. Before it is possible to intelligently discuss the origin of the Craft, it is necessary, therefore, to establish the existence of these two separate yet interdependent orders, the one visible and the other invisible. The visible society is a splendid camaraderie of "free and accepted" men enjoined to devote themselves to ethical, educational, fraternal, patriotic, and humanitarian concerns. The invisible society is a secret and most august fraternity whose members are dedicated to the service of a mysterious arcanum arcanorum.

Here Hall explains that Freemasonry is a Craft that is something to be learned...and protected. When take your oaths of secrecy and go through your rituals this is what you are pledging to protect, the Craft. As a member of the outer organiation you are pledging to ultimately protect that inner brotherhood you may or may not even be privy to. And that inner brotherhood is dedicated to the service of the arcanum arcanorum which translates to the mystery of mysteries.

To initiates and true believers these mysteries represent the pinnacle of enlightenment, empowerment, and "freedom". To the God fearing these ancient myserties represent depravity, chaos, pagan worship, and all forms of wickedness. In practice this inner brotherhood, with often unwitting support from the outer organization, use this fraternity to subvert, shape, and initiate society into the mysteries without them even knowing it. They also use this brotherhood to acquire power, personal gain, and control at the expense of society through every manner of conspiracy possible.

Hall goes on to further state:

An obstacle well-nigh insurmountable is to convince the Mason himself that the secrets of his Craft are worthy of his profound consideration. As St. Paul, so we are told, kicked against the "pricks" of conversion, so the rank and file of present-day Masons strenuously oppose any effort put forth to interpret Masonic symbols in the light of philosophy. They are seemingly obsessed by the fear that from their ritualism may be extracted a meaning more profound than is actually contained therein. For years it has been a mooted question whether Freemasonry is actually a religious organization. "Masonry," writes Pike, however, in the Legenda for the Nineteenth Degree, "has and always had a religious creed. It teaches what it deems to be the truth in respect to the nature and attributes of God." The more studiously-minded Mason regards the Craft as an aggregation of thinkers concerned with the deeper mysteries of life. The all-too-prominent younger members of the Fraternity, however, if not openly skeptical, are at least indifferent to these weightier issues

 Here Hall explains that rank and file Masons like yourself actually reject the secrets of Craft and vehemently reject the truth about what you're involved in. This would explain why me, a non Mason, has to show you, a rank and file Mason, the true meaning of these oaths and rituals you partake in. This explains why you genuinely believe Freemasonry is just a harmless club that men join so they can speak freely amongst each other. Its because you are seemingly obsessed with fear that your ritualism might have a deeper meaning. You strenuously oppose any effort put forth to interpret Masonic symbolism and traditions in light of philosophy and any covert agendas that arise from it. You are indifferent to the weightier issues. Yet, you are still bound by your pledges and rituals to protect the inner brotherhood, and all their sordid endeavors, you don't seem know even exists.

 

[Kohelet]

They are not. Of the three foundational degrees of Freemasonry, also called Blue Lodge Masonry, the only specifically religious verbage is pulled from the biblical Old Testement for specific use at specific points in the ceremonies. I am not sure of the equivalent in the Quran for muslim brothers wishing to have a ceremony more tailored to their own personal faith which in fact is their right to request. I would imagine there are similar passages within the Quran stating the same particular point the Christian-ccentric ceremony uses the Bible for at that particular point in the ceremony.

It would be the same for a Jewish brother wishing to use the Talmut as their chosen sacred text during the ceremony. As notes, modern Freemasonry is non-denominational in that way. Early Freemasonry evolved within a Christian society influenced by Christian thought which is why so much of Freemasonry still carries much of the influence of Christianity. But many hands have stirred the pot of Freemasonry and much esoteric thought and symbology has evolved into the Fraternity, its rites and its thoughts.

so you picked freemasonry over christianity? why?
isn't it looks very strange that a grown man is dressing like a king? probably a question for psychologist
looks like they are very focused on rituals, but do they read the bible? pray?

this religion gives me a very strong idolatry vibes

 

[Teppodama]

I 100% believe your experience in Freemasonry is what you say it is. Im positive your characterization of Freemasonry is what you truly believe it is. However, I 1000% disagree that Freemasonry is how you describe it to. Lets consider for a moment what renowned Freemason Manly P Hall has written about Freemasonry:

FREEMASONRY is a fraternity within a fraternity—an outer organization concealing an inner brotherhood of the elect. Before it is possible to intelligently discuss the origin of the Craft, it is necessary, therefore, to establish the existence of these two separate yet interdependent orders, the one visible and the other invisible. The visible society is a splendid camaraderie of "free and accepted" men enjoined to devote themselves to ethical, educational, fraternal, patriotic, and humanitarian concerns. The invisible society is a secret and most august fraternity whose members are dedicated to the service of a mysterious arcanum arcanorum.

Here Hall explains that Freemasonry is a Craft that is something to be learned...and protected. When take your oaths of secrecy and go through your rituals this is what you are pledging to protect, the Craft. As a member of the outer organiation you are pledging to ultimately protect that inner brotherhood you may or may not even be privy to. And that inner brotherhood is dedicated to the service of the arcanum arcanorum which translates to the mystery of mysteries.

To initiates and true believers these mysteries represent the pinnacle of enlightenment, empowerment, and "freedom". To the God fearing these ancient myserties represent depravity, chaos, pagan worship, and all forms of wickedness. In practice this inner brotherhood, with often unwitting support from the outer organization, use this fraternity to subvert, shape, and initiate society into the mysteries without them even knowing it. They also use this brotherhood to acquire power, personal gain, and control at the expense of society through every manner of conspiracy possible.

Hall goes on to further state:

An obstacle well-nigh insurmountable is to convince the Mason himself that the secrets of his Craft are worthy of his profound consideration. As St. Paul, so we are told, kicked against the "pricks" of conversion, so the rank and file of present-day Masons strenuously oppose any effort put forth to interpret Masonic symbols in the light of philosophy. They are seemingly obsessed by the fear that from their ritualism may be extracted a meaning more profound than is actually contained therein. For years it has been a mooted question whether Freemasonry is actually a religious organization. "Masonry," writes Pike, however, in the Legenda for the Nineteenth Degree, "has and always had a religious creed. It teaches what it deems to be the truth in respect to the nature and attributes of God." The more studiously-minded Mason regards the Craft as an aggregation of thinkers concerned with the deeper mysteries of life. The all-too-prominent younger members of the Fraternity, however, if not openly skeptical, are at least indifferent to these weightier issues

 Here Hall explains that rank and file Masons like yourself actually reject the secrets of Craft and vehemently reject the truth about what you're involved in. This would explain why me, a non Mason, has to show you, a rank and file Mason, the true meaning of these oaths and rituals you partake in. This explains why you genuinely believe Freemasonry is just a harmless club that men join so they can speak freely amongst each other. Its because you are seemingly obsessed with fear that your ritualism might have a deeper meaning. You strenuously oppose any effort put forth to interpret Masonic symbolism and traditions in light of philosophy and any covert agendas that arise from it. You are indifferent to the weightier issues. Yet, you are still bound by your pledges and rituals to protect the inner brotherhood, and all their sordid endeavors, you don't seem know even exists.

I have no illusions about Freemasonry or the Craft of Freemasonry. I understand it's symbols and have endeavored to read the philosophical thoughts of our learned past members and have given thought of my own on how those symbols and the over all philosophy of Masonry shapes me and my spiritual connection to my God.

I cannot speak to what Hall believed about Masonry and it may be he truly believes what he wrote, hell he might have actually known men who convinced him of a nefarious dual nature to masonry. I really dont find that hard to believe given how autonomous lodges and grand lodges are. There truly could be a clandestine lodge of powerful captains of Industry and politics out there playing king makers and looking to institute a NWO. But then, I think there are probably more such groups out there than Freemasons and not all of them are fraternal in nature.

Id say the WEF for instance is likely more of a NWO threat than Freemasons. Id say the Catholic Church has more diabolical secrets and questionable judgements. I'd say we've seen more questionable authoritarian actions come out of governments over the past three years. The tech oligarchs seem particularly unimpressed with concepts like free speech. Etc etc etc

At the end of the day unlike you I actually have experience within the craft, am a member of the leadership within my lodge, have met and talked with members of my state's Grand Lodge and few from an adjoining state. Have visited multiple lodges in my state and adjoining state and have met hundreds of fellow masons unlike you and not once in all that time have I been asked or felt compelled to do anything that would conflict with my beliefs or that were in my opinion sinister.

And here's an additional thought, Mason don't all agree about every aspect of Freemasonry nor are all Masons paragons of Masonic virtue living by the ideals it sets forth. Its made of men, who are inherently fallible but the majority of Masons I know are in my judgement decent men trying to better themselves and their communities to the best of my ability to judge them by their deeds and the professed words of their mouths. So maybe Hall had an experience of Freemasonry I and everyone else I know has not had in our time but that's fine as that's also not the Freemasonry I know nor that I knowingly support or believe that I unknowingly support in some fashion.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

So you don’t believe in the doctrine of transubstantiation?

I'm an atheist.

 

[Teppodama]

so you picked freemasonry over christianity? why?
isn't it looks very strange that a grown man is dressing like a king? probably a question for psychologist
looks like they are very focused on rituals, but do they read the bible? pray?

this religion gives me a very strong idolatry vibes

The grown man is indeed dressing like a King, a biblical king, for a specific purpose relating to the mythological origin story of Freemasonry. If one were telling the story of how the United States was started one might focus on the founding fathers and as part of that storytelling/play dress up as one of them depending on how entertaining you wanted the storytelling/play to be.

The ceremonies are just part of the trappings of the Fraternity and are used to impart more of the philosophy of Freemasonry, pull the person closer to the fraternity with expansions of their oaths of conduct and as a natural part of the "progression" of one within the Fraternity. Really no different in most ways than say a boy scout advancing through the levels of Scouts.

• SCOUT.
• TENDERFOOT.
• SECOND CLASS.
• FIRST CLASS.
• STAR.
• LIFE.
• EAGLE

In order for a Mason to move to the next of the primary three degrees they must show they understand the lessons imparted by the degree they previously held and have a working understanding of the various symbols and their meanings. This is how various elements, symbols and philosophy of Masonry are traditionally passed down. The rituals are used in each official meeting as part of the tradition but also as a means to memorize the lines of the rituals themselves as the primary elements of Masonry were an oral tradition. As that became more impractical what was allowed to be written down of the rituals and ceremonies that was considered "secret" were written in code and part of the learning is learning to read the code to understand the words to memorize the ceremonial dialogue

Every brother is encouraged to pray in the manner according to their faith. Every official meeting of a lodge is opened with prayer, every meal at a lodge function is initiated with prayer. Every brother starts their journey in Freemasonry with a prayer to their God. Does it matter if my faith doesn't believe in another brother's God, no. I'm not praying to their God. I'm praying to my own. Any vow I make is on the bible as a symbol of MY faith. As I know Freemasonry, it's not meant to replace one's faith but is meant as an additional tool to help one look at the world around them. It just happens to use the basic tools of stone masonry to impart an ideal or viewpoint.

The basic symbols of the Freemason are the Compass (used for making circles, not for telling direction), the Level, the Square, the Gavel or Mallet, the Trowel, the Plumb Line and the rough and smooth stone. All have their specific philosophical meaning in relation to the Freemason and or their interactions with those around them. There are other symbols as well also with their specific meanings to impart but these are the foundational symbols and that's not really any particular secret. Anyone even remotely passingly familiar with Freemasonry will have likely seen one or all of them or some combination thereof.

As for the idolatry vibe I get that. I just honestly hope at the end of the day I remain strong in my faith and do nothing I might knowingly believe to be questionable to my faith. I believe my God knows my heart and my intention. If I am wrong about my understanding I'll eventually find out in the end either way.

 

[cheachea]

Really no different in most ways than say a boy scout advancing through the levels of Scouts.

• SCOUT.
• TENDERFOOT.
• SECOND CLASS.
• FIRST CLASS.
• STAR.
• LIFE.
• EAGLE

I'm An Eagle Scout.

My Eagle Scout Project was making a flag pole for my Church in my home town.

 

[cheachea]

Do you guys think that there are secret societies Within secret societies ?

 

[Kohelet]

As for the idolatry vibe I get that. I just honestly hope at the end of the day I remain strong in my faith and do nothing I might knowingly believe to be questionable to my faith. I believe my God knows my heart and my intention. If I am wrong about my understanding I'll eventually find out in the end either way.

sounds like idealist people that want from this world more than it can offer like the communists, souls of the word of tohu

big light, but with no ability to store it

it's good that you got an open mind, its always good to ask questions

 

[Teppodama]

Do you guys think that there are secret societies Within secret societies ?

There's certainly no reason there absolutely couldn't be. All it would take is like minded individuals having met through a society to share their particular ideas and decide to conduct their own agendas within the trappings of the original society. Could happen with any group. Doesn't even have to be a "Secret" society. Could be any group or organization.

 

[Teppodama]

sounds like idealist people that want from this world more than it can offer like the communists, souls of the word of tohu

big light, but with no ability to store it

it's good that you got an open mind, its always good to ask questions

Familiar with Kabbalah are you?

Interesting you use light in your comment. Freemasons consider their quest for philosophical and spiritual knowledge and self-discovery as a desire for more light.

I always try to have an open mind. Questions are how we learn, either in receiving the answers or in how we frame the question itself.

 

[Teppodama]

I'm An Eagle Scout.

My Eagle Scout Project was making a flag pole for my Church in my home town.

Are you a currently active scout or simply obtained Eagle class and are no longer active? Just curious

 

[cheachea]

Are you a currently active scout or simply obtained Eagle class and are no longer active? Just curious

I'm not active anymore.

I got Eagle in High School but I moved to a bunch of different towns after high school so I never really got involved with any other Troops.

I got to the second rank of The Order of The Arrow (Brotherhood).

 

[Teppodama]

I'm not active anymore.

I got Eagle in High School but I moved to a bunch of different towns after high school so I never really got involved with any other Troops.

I got to the second rank of The Order of The Arrow (Brotherhood).

Not familiar with the Order of the Arrow. I was only in scouts for a short time when I was a boy but had good memories of it.

 

[calavera2]

Freemasonry is insidious IMO. But, it's similar to any Fraternal Order, Social Club, Fraternity, or such that affords its members the ability to advance and look out for each other at the exclusion of doing the same for non-members.

It's anecdotal but my Father had a co-worker who is a Mason but my Dad didn't know until the guy f*cked up on the job. The guy was driving a dual axle dump truck with the box up when it should have been lowered it before driving. He rounded an off-camber turn and put the truck on its side. Due to the negligence and damage caused he had to go to the main office before a disciplinary review board and take a urinalysis which he passed.

The day of the board the co-worker showed up in a nice shirt and slacks and one item he had never worn before; a Free Mason ring. He and the foreman went to a review board consisting of 5 personnel. Three out of the five personnel also wore Masonic rings. The co-worker walked away scott-free which wasn't expected as previous lesser incidents had resulted in punishments such as forced taking of leave, CDL medical examination, repeated drug screening, etc.

This is not anecdotal as masons helping other masons is one of the main benefits of becoming one. Many a worthless turd I've run across who never fail to not so slily proclaim their masonry as a shield. @Teppodama claims brotherly gobbledygook but it's just chuds protecting other chuds. Could be the bad apples but they sure do stand out.

 

[jk7707]

Whatever I see weirder shit in a regular Catholic church. It's just a bunch of hokey mostly old retirees playing. There were 4 million freemasons in the US alone in the late 50's, and today there are estimated to be about 1 million members. It's not exactly an exclusive club.

That's why the Catholic Church hated the Masons. They were competition for a limited share of souls. Lol.

 

[terrapin]

I know you're not asking me but ...Consubstantiation. In that while the bread and wine may feed the physical body, the faith in what it symbolizes transforms it into nourishment for the spiritual body as well. “Then Jesus declared, 'I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty'” - John 8:35 I believe he meant that in a spiritual sense as none of Jesus's doctrine really had much to do with the physical world aside from telling everyone how immaterial it is compared to the spiritual world and preparing one's self for it.

the term is transubstantiation in the catholic faith. consubstantiation is a different explanation altogether. transubstantiation makes a distinction between the accident of a thing and its substance. the accident is the form it takes and the substance is its essence or inner reality. its from medieval philosophy. so transubstantiation changes the inner essence to the body of christ while the accident... the outer form remains the same.

consubstantiation leaves the physical reality totally intact but alongside of that the real presence of christ is added onto the thing.

im ok with either honestly although trans is the way i was taught in my formative years.