Thoughts on Rickson's BJJ/Self Defense claims?

nefti said:
Rick son is one of the greatest Jiujitsu practioners ever, just not a great mma fighter. Look at how bad xande looked in mma and how average a fighter roger was.
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They both looked average because they actually fought guys who were good, not total cans to make them look good. Xande won all his fights and ROger fight many good fighters, and against Tim Kennedy who arguably defeated Yoel Romero
 
BJJ Coffee Drinker said:
Tim Kennedy who arguably defeated Yoel Romero
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Tim tried to cheat his way to victory against Yoel with glove grabbing uppercut tricks by got TKO by Yoel.
Rogers fight against Tim was abysmal, he was half dead from weight cutting (which seems super amateurish) and lost against a guy who was a super good matchup.
 
yetanother said:
Tim tried to cheat his way to victory against Yoel with glove grabbing uppercut tricks by got TKO by Yoel.
Rogers fight against Tim was abysmal, he was half dead from weight cutting (which seems super amateurish) and lost against a guy who was a super good matchup.
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roger controlled tim the whole first round, seond round he comes out in zombie mode, I was surprided he gassed so badly...
 
yetanother said:
Tim tried to cheat his way to victory against Yoel with glove grabbing uppercut tricks by got TKO by Yoel.
Rogers fight against Tim was abysmal, he was half dead from weight cutting (which seems super amateurish) and lost against a guy who was a super good matchup.
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roger controlled tim the whole first round, seond round he comes out in zombie mode, I was surprided he gassed so badly...
 
nefti said:
Jake knows How to do a seo nagi. And if you see rickson slightly changes his energy causing jake to go though the counters. Then he scolds jake for now knowing the counter he wanted.

Again all those options are shown in the old gracie self defense tapes. Rickson as posted above did his Jedi mind trick.
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I disagree.

Are we watching the same video? It’s around 11 minutes mark



Rickson scolds Jake because that is not the self defense technique that if he learned the GJJ self defense techniques, he would of known. That’s according to Rickson. He says I would choose to do this which was the hip throw. Rickson was making two points. First you need to sit down and your hips should be glued to your opponents which is basic Judo concept that I learned. Then he allows Jake to get the throw or initial throw movement. But that’s not all. Rickson then allows Jake to sit down or squat and glue his hips to Rickson and Rickson is actually sideways and you can claim that he’s cheating. But his second point is the use of Rickson’s choking arm as the leverage to complete the throw. Rickson was trying to point out the obvious which is if the opponent is not really trying to get a one arm choke, it’s harder to get the leverage to successfully throw the opponent. This is not face to face seoi nage where both are gripping one another but one person coming from behind and choking you.

Rickson even asks Jake if he knew the technique.

The technique Jake used can be seen in this clip around 3:28 Mark where this technique is used when you’re pulled back so you can’t use the forward throw.



Maybe that’s why Rickson is so frustrated that black belts can’t even figure out which technique to use for which scenario. The Jedi mind trick wasn’t even there because Jake didn’t discern the two different scenarios. Much of Rickson was trying to teach was connection, base, and other concepts he believed will make you better at grappling. Yes, it’s PR or marketing but if you watch his seminars, he’s very consistent and even touches upon vale tudo guard which I thought was odd as he used this sideways open guard.

These self defense techniques are on the old GJJ videos but apparently people are not practicing them.
 
JustTheTip said:
Takada had a 2-6-1 record in Pride and was 36 when he fought Rickson at the end of '98. Just the next year Sakuraba beat Royler and challenged Rickson. Rickson turned down the fight saying Sakurabi "had no aura" and instead fought Funaki. The other Gracie brothers stepped up and lost.
I vividly remember all this because I was a huge Gracie family fan back then. I was amazed after the early UFCs and thought Rickson must have been a superhero by how everyone talked about him.After Sakuraba beat Royler, all eyes were on Rickson and I couldn't wait to see the best fighter in the world fight. But when he refused the fight and fought Funaki instead, I was sick for damn near a week. If you go by what people SAY, Rickson was the greatest of all time. But if you go by actual accomplishments and results, he wasn't. He refused the challenging fights and never developed a top level competitor or fighter.
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But you can argue Sakuraba is similar to Rickson. I don’t think Sakuraba allowed rematches when he defeated someone. He also wouldn’t go to the ground against a lightweight Royler. That’s embarrassing. I wanted to see a Sakuraba pass Roylers guard, get the mount, then submit him. But he waits until the fight is over to do anything. Renzo did pretty well in their striking exchanges which surprised me.
 
sport jiu jitsu is a great sport but MMA is a far far diff sport, ebi is the future of grappling. D1 wrestling is awesome too.
 
do you think on baseball forums there are guys pontificating if babe ruth would be great in today's major league?
 
Rickson embellished or lied about his "fighting career"



sorry if repost couldnt read carefully every page
 
BJJ_Rage said:
Jesús... Takada was a pretty respecter wresltler, some may say on funakis league... the dude was no push over, and Rickson was 39 years old, what exactly did you expect to see?
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Maybe a....Takedown?

That was fucking embarrassing for a guy who won 400 fights and lost zero.

No wrestling TD's certainly no Judo, WTF is "combative's" going to do if the systems best guy can't do it?
 
CFGroup said:
Maybe a....Takedown?

That was fucking embarrassing for a guy who won 400 fights and lost zero.

No wrestling TD's certainly no Judo, WTF is "combative's" going to do if the systems best guy can't do it?
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Did you watch the takada fight? Kind of hard to take someone down when he’s holding up the ropes...

Rickson was no judo world beater, but he was standard... also, he did take them down finally.

400-0 my ass, that’s a laughable as gokors 400-0 record, which he claims in his website... Of course that record is bullshit
 
Touché I suppose .
I meant it as a retorical statement cause it seems silly to talk about.
But I guess the fact people are indeed talking about it takes the wind out of the point I was hoping to make.
 
andrewm2211 said:
Touché I suppose .
I meant it as a retorical statement cause it seems silly to talk about.
But I guess the fact people are indeed talking about it takes the wind out of the point I was hoping to make.
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I agree it's a pretty unproductive/meaningless conversation. Baseball types just aren't any smarter than we are, sadly.
 
spiderguarda said:
I disagree.

Are we watching the same video? It’s around 11 minutes mark



Rickson scolds Jake because that is not the self defense technique that if he learned the GJJ self defense techniques, he would of known. That’s according to Rickson. He says I would choose to do this which was the hip throw. Rickson was making two points. First you need to sit down and your hips should be glued to your opponents which is basic Judo concept that I learned. Then he allows Jake to get the throw or initial throw movement. But that’s not all. Rickson then allows Jake to sit down or squat and glue his hips to Rickson and Rickson is actually sideways and you can claim that he’s cheating. But his second point is the use of Rickson’s choking arm as the leverage to complete the throw. Rickson was trying to point out the obvious which is if the opponent is not really trying to get a one arm choke, it’s harder to get the leverage to successfully throw the opponent. This is not face to face seoi nage where both are gripping one another but one person coming from behind and choking you.

Rickson even asks Jake if he knew the technique.

The technique Jake used can be seen in this clip around 3:28 Mark where this technique is used when you’re pulled back so you can’t use the forward throw.



Maybe that’s why Rickson is so frustrated that black belts can’t even figure out which technique to use for which scenario. The Jedi mind trick wasn’t even there because Jake didn’t discern the two different scenarios. Much of Rickson was trying to teach was connection, base, and other concepts he believed will make you better at

These self defense techniques are on the old GJJ videos but apparently people are not practicing them.
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I agree the situational self defense are cool, and they shouldn’t be ignored.

I disagree that they are as important as he makes it out to be. My point being, some random dude goes up to Jake and grabs him from behind. Even if Jake does the wrong technique according to the GJJ perscriptions. My money is still on Jake, I think his experience sparring at full resistance would give him the upper hand regardless if he used the incorrect rehearsed technique for that exact grip/situation
 
andrewm2211 said:
I agree the situational self defense are cool, and they shouldn’t be ignored.

I disagree that they are as important as he makes it out to be. My point being, some random dude goes up to Jake and grabs him from behind. Even if Jake does the wrong technique according to the GJJ perscriptions. My money is still on Jake, I think his experience sparring at full resistance would give him the upper hand regardless if he used the incorrect rehearsed technique for that exact grip/situation
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Hence the reason why self defense techniques for specific scenarios are worthless .

Once again we are moving away from the concept of Kano: something about training against resisting opponent.

If you want to do Kata training, just do it
I bet you there would 100 debates about which gjj self defense techniques apply to what ever situation.

I tried to introduce a gjj self defense program.
I had a purple belt that came from a GJJ background.
So I decided to get him to show one move after warm up.
The demonstration went something like this.
It was something like:" grab my lapel" ....I grab the lapel..."no, not this lapel...the other one because otherwise it would be a different technique".

quickly we go into the rabbit hole.

Also that gjj student told me a sad story about his old school.
No one rolled unless you went to open mats on Saturday.
They just drilled 2 self defense techniques per class. Sport jiu jitsu techniques were ridiculed and their practices were discourage.
Most people by purple belt left to join another academy of sport jiu jitsu. They also had to swallow their pride because they surely not up to the sport standard due to their lack of training in sport bjj..
 
Last edited:
Can we take a sober look at Rickson?

He's somewhere between God and Can. He has the same joints as any other person and two carotid arteries.

The 400-0 crap was ridiculously bad marketing.

I don't think a fair comparison would be to an old baseball player. If you look back at the 80s, baseball looked the same. The guys were just as skilled. The talent pool was huge. The 86 Mets or 88 Dodgers could very well win a world series today.

Now, in the 80s, the talent pool for fighters and BJJ athletes was not NEARLY as deep as now. Rickson was the best athlete of the Gracie family. Not in the same solar system as someone like Bo Jackson, but good. You take a guy like Bo and move him to 2018 from 1988, he's still a freak, he's still skilled. He's the best player on the field still. But that was the thing-- the talent pool and the skill were there.

In MMA and BJJ the talent pool has exploded, and the skills are now widely dissemiated.

Prime Rickson could still fight now, and be damn good. But he's no Bo Jackson. People know BJJ and MMA now, and you have fantastic athletes involved.

I don't believe he'd be a top guy, but he wouldn't be some can either.
 
lechien said:
Hence the reason why self defense techniques for specific scenarios are worthless .

Once again we are moving away from the concept of Kano: something about training against resisting opponent.

If you want to do Kata training, just do it
I bet you there would 100 debates about which gjj self defense techniques apply to what ever situation.

I tried to introduce a gjj self defense program.
I had a purple belt that came from a GJJ background.
So I decided to get him to show one move after warm up.
The demonstration went something like this.
It was something like:" grab my lapel" ....I grab the lapel..."no, not this lapel...the other one because otherwise it would be a different technique".

quickly we go into the rabbit hole.

Also that gjj student told me a sad story about his old school.
No one rolled unless you went to open mats on Saturday.
They just drilled 2 self defense techniques per class. Sport jiu jitsu techniques were ridiculed and their practices were discourage.
Most people by purple belt left to join another academy of sport jiu jitsu. They also had to swallow their pride because they surely not up to the sport standard due to their lack of training in sport bjj..
Click to expand...

And you still shit on the new combatives and have not taken a look at their new program.

Jesús dude let it go, of course sd pre stage techniques are worthless, not all gjj is, and where the heck do you think old vale Rufo fighters came from?
 
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