What would be the fate of North American Indians/Natives/Aboriginals if.....

[MadSquabbles500]

They need to go through a few plaques of their own to build up immune system so they can fight back against old world hordes.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

The Chinese could very easily colonize North America if it was still in the stone age today.

I just know in my heart that the ancient chinese discovered the New World first, but did not exploit. Just look on a map. There is a chain of island in the north Pacific going from taiwan, ryukyu islands, through Japan, and to the Aleutian Islands, and from there the mainland. The chinese had awesome ships to make that voyage.

 

[tonni]

Very scholarly thread. Anthropologists worldwide are baffled!!!

 

[Harry Flashman]

Bro, nobody thinks that.......All Societies back then were fucked up and killed eachother, including Amerindians.


The Amerindians had a great civilization, wtf are you talking about? Even the Spaniards were impressed by the Aztec's engineering.


Would they had advanced and been as powerful as Europe/Asia...Yes.


Keep in mind, it was much easier for Europeans to advance because they had much more ideas to steal from, including from Asia....The old world simply had more people thus more possibilities to improve....In europe for example, they could see some technological break through in the middle east, thus they would build upon it.

Europeans build a lot of their ideas from the middle eastern people.


Amerindians, only had themselves......They didn't have all these other continents with ideas to steal from like Europe.


I say the Amerindians would of become much more advance than Europe, all by themselves.

Is this one of those Russian hackers posting extremist views to disrupt the election? Or are you for real?

edit: It must have been a "We waz Kangzz" post.

 

[uptheirons!]

If Europeans didn't conquer them. I've been thinking about this a lot every time our Prime Minister opens his cuckhole when spitting his poison about natives. We are taught that basically, white Europeans imported war, slavery, and genocide to North America. But the Natives were doing this to each other for thousands of years before we came. We are taught that we are responsible for their demise, which we are.

But what would have been their fate if we didn't come? Would they have evolved from the stone age and created civilization that would have contended with others? Would they have been conquered by the Chinese? Would they have remained in the same state of perpetual war and slavery?

Discuss.

Why do you hate natives?

 

[gannima]

It’s not entirely innaccurate to say Europeans brought war over to the new world. “Wars” fought between native nations typically were low intensity with very few casualties.
In some cultures they didn’t even try and kill each other; their wars were more sport than anything else.

There were exceptions certainly but Indian wars before Europeans arrived typically were not very violent. At least not compared to European wars.

 

[JosephDredd]

If the natives weren't wiped out by disease, they would have wound up like any other huge area that Europe attempted to colonize. Look at China, India or Africa for your answers.

 

[ShinkanPo]

I can refine it for you, since you can't engage unless it's given to you on a silver platter.

Where would natives be today if Europeans didn't conquer them?

The north Amerindians would eventually be conqured by the south indians.


If the Europeans and Chinese had not arrived in the Americas the world over all will be much poorer not only north America or Europe.

Consider this Potato and Corn are indiginouse to the Americas.

I am asian and I eat lots of Corn and Potato so no Indians no good it will suck.

 

[TheGreatA]

I reckon the Aztecs would've conquered a large part of America. Part of the reason they fell is because Cortes was able to ally with rival tribes that rebelled against Aztec dominance. Alone, he probably wouldn't have been able to bring them down. Hundreds of thousands of Tlaxcalans assisted him in his attempts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlaxcala_(Nahua_state)

The Zulus would've probably conquered much of South Africa if Britain didn't interfere.

 

[ShinkanPo]

I reckon the Aztecs would've conquered a large part of America. Part of the reason they fell is because Cortez was able to ally with rival tribes that rebelled against Aztec dominance. Alone, he probably wouldn't have been able to bring them down. Hundreds of thousands of Tlaxcalans assisted him in his attempts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlaxcala_(Nahua_state)

The Zulus would've probably conquered much of South Africa if Britain didn't interfere.

But in an Isolated Americas can the astec build war technology that is comparable to a renaisance European Army or a Chinese late medieval Army Empire?

I have no doubt the Aztecas are inteligent and can build computers and bombs if they have the resources. The key woard is reasources without access to China they wont have gun powxer and other Chems.


And that may make conquering a problem.

But it will be an interesting alternate history if the Aztecs are the once to advance and discover Africa and Europe instead the other wayh arround

 

[Slick_36]

You sound completely ignorant but extremely judgemental about the subject, not a good look. So first of all, the Native Americans had some major populations, Columbus brought disease that wiped up to 90% of the population. For comparison, the Black Death killed from 30% to 50% of the European population in the 14th century. Europe had been connected to Africa, the Middle East, and Asia and exposed to a lot of diseases, the Silk Road opened by the Mongol Empire brought about the Black Death to Europe from China by trade and it did serious damage that Europe had to rebuild from. The Americans didn't have that same contact and were much more vulnerable to disease. So imagine a society that's lost 90% of it's population, that's basically post apocalyptic and ripe for invasion. The culture took a huge hit since so much was passed down orally.

Now about war, the Native Americans definitely waged it like anyone else in the world. But I don't see what you're point is about that. Europe was constantly at war until World War II, and even then you had wars in the Baltic states, you still got Russian-Ukrainian conflicts.

 

[Slick_36]

I reckon the Aztecs would've conquered a large part of America. Part of the reason they fell is because Cortes was able to ally with rival tribes that rebelled against Aztec dominance. Alone, he probably wouldn't have been able to bring them down. Hundreds of thousands of Tlaxcalans assisted him in his attempts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlaxcala_(Nahua_state)

The Zulus would've probably conquered much of South Africa if Britain didn't interfere.

Yep, that's my reckoning as well. The Aztecs were running out of resources and they had no problem expanding out at other people's expense. I think they would have moved up and settled North America. I'm curious if that would have stopped their human sacrifices since it's theorized they resorted to that out of desperation since their agricultural land was diminishing to a point they couldn't sustain their population. An Aztec nation not centered around war and sacrifices would be an interesting place to see develop. I do think the Europeans could have settled in North America without the genocide, the active role of removing Native American land, population, and culture is what the crime was. Though France was always cool about respecting culture and the English eventually came around, it was America and Manifest Destiny that really went after them with genocide.

 

[Bacco]

They will stayed more or less the same, if we speak of north american natives

The atzecs could have evolved a lot if the spaniards did'nt buttfucked them, but still at slower pace than the europeans because they (atzec) did'nt got enough powerful enemies

they would have invaded Europe with armored buffalo

Armored elephant > armored bison

 

[Slick_36]

It’s not entirely innaccurate to say Europeans brought war over to the new world. “Wars” fought between native nations typically were low intensity with very few casualties.
In some cultures they didn’t even try and kill each other; their wars were more sport than anything else.

There were exceptions certainly but Indian wars before Europeans arrived typically were not very violent. At least not compared to European wars.

I don't know about that, the Ojibwe had a knack for eating fallen warriors on the other side, when not dancing around with their scalps. I'm not as familiar with war in the rest of North America, but I don't think they were particularly more peaceful in war than anywhere else in the world. I could be wrong though. Even European war used to involve a lot less casualties with the way they waged it, the 19th-20 centuries really increased the body counts.

 

[Slick_36]

They will stayed more or less the same, if we speak of north american natives

The atzecs could have evolved a lot if the spaniards did'nt buttfucked them, but still at slower pace than the europeans because they (atzec) did'nt got enough powerful enemies



Armored elephant > armored bison

Why do you think North American Indians wouldn't have evolved too? And even though the buffalo thing was a joke, elephants weren't that great in war. They were just as likely to do damage to their own side and very limited geographically. They looked cool as shit, but they didn't win wars.

 

[TheGreatA]

But in an Isolated Americas can the astec build war technology that is comparable to a renaisance European Army or a Chinese late medieval Army Empire?

I have no doubt the Aztecas are inteligent and can build computers and bombs if they have the resources. The key woard is reasources without access to China they wont have gun powxer and other Chems.


And that may make conquering a problem.

But it will be an interesting alternate history if the Aztecs are the once to advance and discover Africa and Europe instead the other wayh arround

They won't, but in a hypothetical scenario where the conquistadors never arrive into the Americas in the 16th century, they may have been able to consolidate power over other rival tribes, to the extent where they would've become too difficult to deal with sheer numbers-wise, in a colonial war.

After all, colonial armies usually only consisted of hundreds or at best a thousand or so men. They had more advanced equipment but even battles vs Zulus (who wielded nothing but spears and shields) proved out difficult for the British in the late 19th century, merely because of sheer numbers disadvantages.

A more united native American people, would've forced the colonialists to deal with them on a more equal basis, instead of being able to sow discord and put tribe against tribe. The Aztec Empire could survive, but it, of course, ultimately ends up being influenced by Western/Asian technology, institutions and culture, adopting atleast some of it.

There is no scenario where a civilization, its traditions and institutions, can remain completely intact against pressure from militarily more advanced civilizations. The Japanese, Chinese, India, etc. also were required to absorb foreign influences, in the end. But the difference is that they remained as distinct entities from the Western countries, while the Aztecs, etc. vanished.

 

[jefferz]

I don't know about that, the Ojibwe had a knack for eating fallen warriors on the other side, when not dancing around with their scalps. I'm not as familiar with war in the rest of North America, but I don't think they were particularly more peaceful in war than anywhere else in the world. I could be wrong though. Even European war used to involve a lot less casualties with the way they waged it, the 19th-20 centuries really increased the body counts.

Ojibwe were girl scouts compares to the Comanche or the plains Sioux.

 

[Slick_36]

If the Aztecs moved up, I think they would have settled up to around around Kansas or Colorado, they wouldn't be a city-state anymore though and would have to adapt to a more spread out culture which changes a lot. I think that would have meant for the growth of their empire and influence, but a lot of the North American nations would be largely unaffected.

 

[Slick_36]

Ojibwe were girl scouts compares to the Comanche or the plains Sioux.

Well the Comanche were the Apache's bitches until they got ahold of the horse that Europeans brought over. The Apache saw it as food, the Comanche saw it a tool of war. And the Ojibwe fought against the Sioux and pushed them back in to Minnesota and Dakota.

 

[Rod1]

Much like Africa, they were technologically too far behind to not be conquered/exploited by whoever came along next.

They were too far behind when it came to resistance to disease.