Why didn't early MMA wrestlers like Tank Abbott utilize G&P as effectively as Mark Coleman?

[jeskola]

Excuse me, I would like to inquire why cavemen in 3000 B.C. could not properly utilize modern martial arts techniques

 

[shockwave kicker]

Excuse me, I would like to inquire why cavemen in 3000 B.C. could not properly utilize modern martial arts techniques

Tank has a degree in history. His views on women are quite up to date

 

[tasticles]

Wasn't tank much heavier than Oleg?

Quite a bit. At least 40lbs. That beer belly and lack of cardio did him in.

 

[mkt]

Tank was in love with his hands and didn't wrestle that much. Coleman and Kerr had better mma wrestling by far for the early days.

Later on people acted like Tito was a genius for baiting wrist control to drop an elbow in someone's face.

Yep, and Tank even made fun of Tito (a former training partner of his until he accused Tito of stealing from him) for using so much wresting and GnP. Tank just wanted to stand and bang. It's not like he's the only former wrestler to do that. Look at former Olympians Hendo and Yoel, along with Gaethje and Chandler now.

Tank had a bit of a boxing background and heavier hands than Coleman. And he obviously stopped training in high-level wrestling.

 

[shockwave kicker]

Quite a bit. At least 40lbs. That beer belly and lack of cardio did him in.

So the fact that he did well against Oleg doesn't really matter..too big of a discrepency

 

[mkt]

Having watched the sport from the beginning, I never got why Coleman got all the credit for GnP. Some of the earliest fights were among the most brutal finishes on the ground with fists or elbows

- Tank vs. Matua
- Tank vs. Varelens (not as brutal as Matua, but Tank did get a TD and finish with GnP)
- Pat Smith vs. Scott Morris
- Goodridge vs. Paul Herrera

 

[mkt]

So the fact that he did well against Oleg doesn't really matter..too big of a discrepency

Tank fought Oleg in the sky-high altitude of Utah after 2 other fights in the same night...and they went 17 minutes with no rounds. As much grief as Tank gets (mostly for his later fights in this 40s), he showed better cardio that night than a lot of HWs have had since then. Look at Kimbo vs. Houston Alexander or Dada 5000. Now that's truly awful cardio for guys who trained for much more modern MMA.

 

[Lee_]

I didn't say it was. I said I've been on here since 2006 and in all that time I've never believed anyone who's claimed to have been around since the NHB days. That's a pretty simple sentence to comprehend. Maybe reading it a second time here will make it easier to digest. I'm not the one pretending to have been around since the beginning. I was born in 1989 and started watching MMA in 2004. If you'd really been following the sport since 1996 then you'd know that the hurdle that Severn had to jump was accepting the fact that to win in the UFC he'd have to hurt people and not that he needed to learn how to GNP.



Right, I'm the one not "in the know," the dude with the PhD who's published and spoken on MMA in journals and international conferences, who's worked for Sherdog in multiple capacities for a decade and a half, I'm the one "ignorant of the facts" when I can cite sources and specific things that Severn has said while you can't back up anything that you say.

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With that name and AV, I wish that you weren't making me commit this Bruce Lee Fan on Bruce Lee Fan crime.

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ROFL are you like 12 years old? This is both sad and hilarious at the same time. Making some laughable and silly claims about yourself.

"Guy with a PHD that spoke for Sherdog.com" lol

You actually think this kind of post improves your credibility?

 

[shockwave kicker]

Tank fought Oleg in the sky-high altitude of Utah after 2 other fights in the same night...and they went 17 minutes with no rounds. As much grief as Tank gets (mostly for his later fights in this 40s), he showed better cardio that night than a lot of HWs have had since then. Look at Kimbo vs. Houston Alexander or Dada 5000. Now that's truly awful cardio for guys who trained for much more modern MMA.

I think cardio is partly genetic.

 

[RemyR]

Despite what many people who never grappled before believe, in general if you grapple with a BJJ guy and you don't know anything about subs chances are you will get caught. Even high level wrestlers. Look at Kevin Jackson.

And back then no one even knew what subs the bjj guys were going for.

 

[mkt]

Despite what many people who never grappled before believe, in general if you grapple with a BJJ guy and you don't know anything about subs chances are you will get caught. Even high level wrestlers. Look at Kevin Jackson.

And back then no one even knew what subs the bjj guys were going for.

Yep. Mark Schultz appeared to be an exception because he apparently grappled with Rickson for 30 minutes+ before getting subbed, if memory serves. lt's not on video, but even Rickson admitted how good Schultz was and that it took him a long time to submit him. But Frank Shamrock submitted both Kevin Jackson and a young Hendo (in submission grappling) very quickly.

 

[mkt]

I know it was for him but his sub defense wasn't that bad. Good enough enough it made Taktarov nope out on an arm bar off his back and finally got him aftee 17 min gassed out. He knocked out huge Duarte for trying an arm bar. Mir was a high level grappler that got him etc Not too horrible early on

It's worth noting that was a very old Tank who took a 6-year break from MMA to do pro wrestling...than came back to fight a young, hungry Mir. I'm not sure if they younger Tank who fought Oleg would've lasted longer, but I think he probably would. Mir was also closer to Tank's size than Oleg, who would probably be a MW today.

 

[mkt]

Indeed, though I'm not certain if he did at that point in his career.. Regardless It looks like there are 2 weight classes between them imo.

Smith was actively training with Frank Shamrock and TK before the Coleman fight. He even called it his "TK guard." I don't think the early Smith who fought in Pancrase 3 or 4 years before that had much of a ground game, though.

 

[mkt]

It's not that he had no GNP - which I can't imagine him ever having admitted to because it's not true - it's that he wasn't willing to pull the trigger and hurt people. The UFC is quite literally a bloodsport - presided over in those glorious early days by the almighty Just Bleed God - and Severn, coming from wrestling, had no bloodlust. But losing, well, that got his blood pumping. After UFC 4, he decided that he'd rather hurt people than experience himself the hurt of losing. That, Severn has admitted, many times. Hell, he'd never punched anybody before stepping into the cage at UFC 4. It's not something Joe Schmoes think about, but for a lot of people - call them "normal people" - being willing to hurt someone takes practice. You have to learn how to flip that kill switch. This is why Big John McCarthy had to take Randy Couture aside early in his career and explicitly tell him that if he wanted BJM to step in and stop his fights then he had to hit his opponents harder on the ground. Hurting people didn't come naturally to The Natural, and that's why he never liked to think of what he did as fighting, but rather, as competition. This is also why Rulon Gardner never fought again after beating Hidehiko Yoshida. Sure, we have had wrestlers like Mark Coleman and Mark Kerr who were literally smashing machines. But we have also had wrestlers who never got into the game for the violence or to inflict pain. Severn was in the latter camp. He didn't have to learn the technique of ground and pound, he had to learn the mindset. He had to learn how to unleash The Beast.

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Great post. I've also said (and still say) that the Severn who fought and beat Oleg Taktarov just 4 months later would've beaten Royce. He not only learned GnP but also learned better sub defense from Mark Tripp, including how to defend triangle chokes. Seven put serious beatings on Oleg and Tank with GnP, knees, elbows, headbutts, etc....it was a different sport back then where you could do almost anything. Oleg and Tank showed a lot of toughness going to a decision with him and not throwing in the towel.

 

[Bullitt68]

ROFL are you like 12 years old? This is both sad and hilarious at the same time. Making some laughable and silly claims about yourself.

"Guy with a PHD that spoke for Sherdog.com" lol

You actually think this kind of post improves your credibility?

Just to let you know, so you don't freak out looking for your next dopamine hit from this increasingly pointless exchange where you've gone from the phony posture of an old knowledgeable vet to a juvenile noob saying "ROFL" and speaking like a garden variety troll: Unless what you have to post is an interview with Severn saying that he had no idea how to GNP at UFC 4 or an admission that you spoke in error, I'm done engaging you. Please feel free to move on and try your "I've been around since the beginning" shtick on less discerning posters.

Yep. Mark Schultz appeared to be an exception because he apparently grappled with Rickson for 30 minutes+ before getting subbed, if memory serves. lt's not on video, but even Rickson admitted how good Schultz was and that it took him a long time to submit him. But Frank Shamrock submitted both Kevin Jackson and a young Hendo (in submission grappling) very quickly.

Well, this isn't necessarily a matter of skill. It could just be a matter of style. BJJ with its "position before submission" ethos doesn't lend itself to quick finishes. Frank, on the other hand, was a catch wrestler, and it ain't called "catch as catch can" for nothing. (NB: This is why the arrival of Frank Mir was so exciting, a HW BJJ practitioner with the aggression of a catch wrestler securing quick submissions from every position like a LW.) Rickson was slow and methodical with his BJJ whereas Frank was fast and aggressive with his catch wrestling.

Either way, not trying to shit on Schultz. He was a bad ass and I would've loved to have seen him continue in the UFC beyond his ass whooping of Big Daddy.

Smith was actively training with Frank Shamrock and TK before the Coleman fight. He even called it his "TK guard." I don't think the early Smith who fought in Pancrase 3 or 4 years before that had much of a ground game, though.

And before he, Frank, and TK formed The Alliance, Mo trained with Ken and Frank at the Lion's Den. It was after getting mauled by Ken in the King of Pancrase tournament that Mo started training with him and the guys at the Lion's Den. Sadly, he never really developed a ground game. His defensive guard was good enough to avoid getting hammered by Coleman while he had the gas to hurt him, but he was routinely taken down and controlled by wrestlers if not also submitted by grapplers from the beginning to the end of his career, from Ken and Bas early to Randy, Randleman, Babalu, and even Renzo later.

Great post. I've also said (and still say) that the Severn who fought and beat Oleg Taktarov just 4 months later would've beaten Royce. He not only learned GnP but also learned better sub defense from Mark Tripp, including how to defend triangle chokes. Seven put serious beatings on Oleg and Tank with GnP, knees, elbows, headbutts, etc....it was a different sport back then where you could do almost anything. Oleg and Tank showed a lot of toughness going to a decision with him and not throwing in the towel.

Agreed on everything here. It's a shame that the two guys who could've so easily pummeled Royce from the top, Severn and Shamrock, both for different reasons refused to do so in back-to-back events. Severn wasn't yet comfortable hurting people and Shamrock wanted to prove that given all the time in the world sitting in his guard Royce could never submit him again. How different the trajectory of the sport would've been if it wasn't Sakuraba in 2000 who dethroned Royce but Severn or Shamrock at UFC 4 or 5...

 

[shockwave kicker]

Just to let you know, so you don't freak out looking for your next dopamine hit from this increasingly pointless exchange where you've gone from the phony posture of an old knowledgeable vet to a juvenile noob saying "ROFL" and speaking like a garden variety troll: Unless what you have to post is an interview with Severn saying that he had no idea how to GNP at UFC 4 or an admission that you spoke in error, I'm done engaging you. Please feel free to move on and try your "I've been around since the beginning" shtick on less discerning posters.



Well, this isn't necessarily a matter of skill. It could just be a matter of style. BJJ with its "position before submission" ethos doesn't lend itself to quick finishes. Frank, on the other hand, was a catch wrestler, and it ain't called "catch as catch can" for nothing. (NB: This is why the arrival of Frank Mir was so exciting, a HW BJJ practitioner with the aggression of a catch wrestler securing quick submissions from every position like a LW.) Rickson was slow and methodical with his BJJ whereas Frank was fast and aggressive with his catch wrestling.

Either way, not trying to shit on Schultz. He was a bad ass and I would've loved to have seen him continue in the UFC beyond his ass whooping of Big Daddy.



And before he, Frank, and TK formed The Alliance, Mo trained with Ken and Frank at the Lion's Den. It was after getting mauled by Ken in the King of Pancrase tournament that Mo started training with him and the guys at the Lion's Den. Sadly, he never really developed a ground game. His defensive guard was good enough to avoid getting hammered by Coleman while he had the gas to hurt him, but he was routinely taken down and controlled by wrestlers if not also submitted by grapplers from the beginning to the end of his career, from Ken and Bas early to Randy, Randleman, Babalu, and even Renzo later.



Agreed on everything here. It's a shame that the two guys who could've so easily pummeled Royce from the top, Severn and Shamrock, both for different reasons refused to do so in back-to-back events. Severn wasn't yet comfortable hurting people and Shamrock wanted to prove that given all the time in the world sitting in his guard Royce could never submit him again. How different the trajectory of the sport would've been if it wasn't Sakuraba in 2000 who dethroned Royce but Severn or Shamrock at UFC 4 or 5...

But why couldn't Shamrock submit Royce? Royce is literally the weakest Gracie and not a great jj Guy relative to the competition.

 

[mkt]

Agreed on everything here. It's a shame that the two guys who could've so easily pummeled Royce from the top, Severn and Shamrock, both for different reasons refused to do so in back-to-back events. Severn wasn't yet comfortable hurting people and Shamrock wanted to prove that given all the time in the world sitting in his guard Royce could never submit him again. How different the trajectory of the sport would've been if it wasn't Sakuraba in 2000 who dethroned Royce but Severn or Shamrock at UFC 4 or 5...

Yep. Honestly, if Kimo didn't have that big tuft of hair, he might have pounded out Royce. I remember him throwing a pretty nasty punch while on top but Royce controlled his head/upper body enough to keep it from landing. That was back when hair-pulling was legal. I see that as the real beginning of the end of Royce's reign, even though he won a few more fights. Keith Hackney also tried a pretty good sprawl-n-brawl attempt with Royce...he was just a little too gunshy with his striking. You could tell everyone was starting to figure Royce out and how to exploit their superior/size strength...it was just a matter of time.

And good point about Frank's catch wrestling. I really wish catch had gotten bigger (opened schools, etc.) around the time the Shamrocks were using and Sak was beating Royce. A few years later Josh Barnett came around, too. There were still enough catch legends along with guys like Eric Paulsen who were incorporating it into NHB/MMA. Paulson later helped Brock divise a good game plan in the Mir rematch where Brock destroyed Frank from the half guard.

 

[Lee_]

Just to let you know, so you don't freak out looking for your next dopamine hit from this increasingly pointless exchange where you've gone from the phony posture of an old knowledgeable vet to a juvenile noob saying "ROFL" and speaking like a garden variety troll: Unless what you have to post is an interview with Severn saying that he had no idea how to GNP at UFC 4 or an admission that you spoke in error, I'm done engaging you. Please feel free to move on and try your "I've been around since the beginning" shtick on less discerning posters.

You are hilarious. Look back at your previous post and tell me who is trolling. Long mocking post with a bunch of GIFs like a child. You are the only one freaking out for dopamine.

I am not going to look for that because you aren't worth the time, but there are plenty of Youtube interviews where he says he trained for 5 days at 1.5 hours per day and only practiced "amateur wrestling moves" before UFC 4.

 

[shockwave kicker]

Yep. Honestly, if Kimo didn't have that big tuft of hair, he might have pounded out Royce. I remember him throwing a pretty nasty punch while on top but Royce controlled his head/upper body enough to keep it from landing. That was back when hair-pulling was legal. I see that as the real beginning of the end of Royce's reign, even though he won a few more fights. Keith Hackney also tried a pretty good sprawl-n-brawl attempt with Royce...he was just a little too gunshy with his striking. You could tell everyone was starting to figure Royce out and how to exploit their superior/size strength...it was just a matter of time.

And good point about Frank's catch wrestling. I really wish catch had gotten bigger (opened schools, etc.) around the time the Shamrocks were using and Sak was beating Royce. A few years later Josh Barnett came around, too. There were still enough catch legends along with guys like Eric Paulsen who were incorporating it into NHB/MMA. Paulson later helped Brock divise a good game plan in the Mir rematch where Brock destroyed Frank from the half guard.

The letdown for me was Shamrock. He shouldn't have gotten subbed by Royce. With or without shoes

 

[Lee_]

Just to let you know, so you don't freak out looking for your next dopamine hit from this increasingly pointless exchange where you've gone from the phony posture of an old knowledgeable vet to a juvenile noob saying "ROFL" and speaking like a garden variety troll: Unless what you have to post is an interview with Severn saying that he had no idea how to GNP at UFC 4 or an admission that you spoke in error, I'm done engaging you. Please feel free to move on and try your "I've been around since the beginning" shtick on less discerning posters.



Well, this isn't necessarily a matter of skill. It could just be a matter of style. BJJ with its "position before submission" ethos doesn't lend itself to quick finishes. Frank, on the other hand, was a catch wrestler, and it ain't called "catch as catch can" for nothing. (NB: This is why the arrival of Frank Mir was so exciting, a HW BJJ practitioner with the aggression of a catch wrestler securing quick submissions from every position like a LW.) Rickson was slow and methodical with his BJJ whereas Frank was fast and aggressive with his catch wrestling.

Either way, not trying to shit on Schultz. He was a bad ass and I would've loved to have seen him continue in the UFC beyond his ass whooping of Big Daddy.



And before he, Frank, and TK formed The Alliance, Mo trained with Ken and Frank at the Lion's Den. It was after getting mauled by Ken in the King of Pancrase tournament that Mo started training with him and the guys at the Lion's Den. Sadly, he never really developed a ground game. His defensive guard was good enough to avoid getting hammered by Coleman while he had the gas to hurt him, but he was routinely taken down and controlled by wrestlers if not also submitted by grapplers from the beginning to the end of his career, from Ken and Bas early to Randy, Randleman, Babalu, and even Renzo later.



Agreed on everything here. It's a shame that the two guys who could've so easily pummeled Royce from the top, Severn and Shamrock, both for different reasons refused to do so in back-to-back events. Severn wasn't yet comfortable hurting people and Shamrock wanted to prove that given all the time in the world sitting in his guard Royce could never submit him again. How different the trajectory of the sport would've been if it wasn't Sakuraba in 2000 who dethroned Royce but Severn or Shamrock at UFC 4 or 5...

Hey, I just thought of something as I hadn't realized you were a mod. My 2006 account disappeared, wasn't banned or anything, and when the I asked the mods after opening a new account, I got ignored. How about looking into that, and that way you can be satisfied that I am also an old timer? The account was named Levi_