Today in 1945, Mussolini is executed by the Italian resistance; is fascism reemerging?

[TheGreatA]

I doubt it very seriously. People aren't "hard" like they used to be those days. And even then it was only Germans who were suitable for running that kind of a style of government, because of their centuries-long culture of military tradition, discipline, obedience.

The Mussolini experiment, to me, clearly displayed that fascism cannot be effective in a culture where the level of discipline is low, and where people have to come to appreciate their freedoms and comforts. The Italian fascist regime proved to be ineffective and incapable of holding itself together, if not for constantly borrowing aid from Germany. The people wanted the glamour and pride offered by Mussolini's fascist visions, but they had no need for the hard work, the discipline and the inevitable warfare that would occur in any attempt to restore Italy back to "Roman glory".

Mussolini was a charismatic and fairly intelligent individual. Much of what is today considered to be "alpha male"/gangster behaviour, are mannerisms borrowed from Mussolini. He's over-shadowed by Hitler, but he was in fact the original "national socialist" and fascist, originally a disgruntled Marxist socialist who turned to what he recognized as the more "practical methods" to bring about the revolution that he desired, appealing to people's conservative ideals while slipping in some previously unacceptable socialist rhetoric.

Even then, his attempts to bring back Rome, basically collapsed the moment he actually asked for people to start doing the hard labour, instead of just playing around.

The same thing would happen in any proposed fascist regime today. As long as people get to wear the uniforms, be part of the parades, and take undeserved pride in themselves, it is all fine and good. But once the actual work begins, they'll quickly quit on the ideology.

 

[Gandhi]

Well, this has blossomed into a predictably nuanced and productive discussion.

Well I have only read one of the articles and am still writing just my comments on that, so some of us are going to give real discussion a whirl.....

 

[Trotsky]

Well I have only read one of the articles and am still writing just my comments on that, so some of us are going to give real discussion a whirl.....

Ya know, to be completely honest, I really do appreciate that. Both historically and doctrinally/ideologically, I think this is a fascinating subject. Reminds me of the Galeano quote to the effect that "history doesn't say goodbye; it just says 'see you later.'"

 

[Gandhi]

So here's the thing, are you anti-communist?

It so happens that I was quoting several quotes to do with the Russian Revolution and it's atrocities, of which one quote directly tied communism to Judaism (not Jews). The quote repeated from my first post: in 1935, the most famous rabbi in America, Rabbi Stephen Wise, a friend of President Roosevelt, boasted: “Some call it Marxism, I call it Judaism.” (The American Bulletin, May 5,1935). It is sad that we are witnessing here in this thread the conflation of religion and race; again.

Further to this, why are you specifically engaging me publicly and disrespectfully in here when you were invited (of a very few) to a private conversation that you never responded once to.

Am I to try and guess why you might be attempting to paint me as antisemite now? That wouldn't be respectful now would it?

Wait you are PMing this crap to him as well as posting it publicly? And you are upset he is being rude to you?

 

[Gandhi]

Ya know, to be completely honest, I really do appreciate that. Both historically and doctrinally/ideologically, I think this is a fascinating subject. Reminds me of the Galeano quote to the effect that "history doesn't say goodbye; it just says 'see you later.'"

I agree.

I was still writing my reaction to the Russian article and had to stop. I realized I had not made up my mind if an ethno nationalist movement designed to mobilize the masses against a far left threat to the establishment, was required to be really fascist. What is for sure is that there is enough in Russian that it fits in with the goals of the modern ethno nationalist movements.

 

[lilelvis]

Should get @lilelvis in here he's an expert at this stuff.

I don't want to live in your head, even if it's free. The place is a dump.

 

[TheGreatA]

I agree.

I was still writing my reaction to the Russian article and had to stop. I realized I had not made up my mind if an ethno nationalist movement designed to mobilize the masses against a far left threat to the establishment, was required to be really fascist. What is for sure is that there is enough in Russian that it fits in with the goals of the modern ethno nationalist movements.

It appears to me that the only real threat to current Russian government, domestically, are the ethno-nationalist movements.

There is no real "threat" on the left for Putin. Only on the right.

The reason why Putin appears to "empower" foreign ethno-nationalist movements, is because he understands how dangerous they are, to supra-national, multi-ethnic and multi-cultural constructs, such as the one he is in charge of.

This is not exactly a new practise in European politics, as funding ethno-nationalist movements to destabilize enemies, has been a strategy for Europe's power players for centuries. Part of the reason why Finland ever became independent, is because Germany kept funding and supporting nationalist movements that would push for Finnish sovereignty, separate from the Russian Czardom. Not out of good-will, but because Russia was their enemy, and because Finland could serve as a buffer zone independent of Russian rule, which it eventually did, allowing Germans to launch assaults against Russia through its territory.

Britain used that strategy against the Ottoman Empire, and they also suffered their own setbacks in that regard, in India and other places, where they were forced to give up their imperial rule, against rising nationalist sentiment. As did America when the Soviets installed their own puppet regimes in the Middle East, and elsewhere. The purpose behind it all was to damage the enemy, and decrease their control over territory, rather than any ideological alignment with those of the ethno-nationals. Jimmy Carter and Brzezinski were certainly not aligned in thought with the Afghan mujahideens, but they supported them all the same.

Putin is an ex-KGB agent who runs his affairs like a mob boss. But he has never given up on certain Soviet ideals, such as multi-culturalism, multi-national federacy, etc. The moves to support ethno-nationals are merely moves on the global chessboard for him. He doesn't want any of that into his own country, because it would destabilize the peace between Russian nationals, Muslims, etc. that he has worked so hard towards, to achieve.

 

[ShinkanPo]

I don't want to live in your head, even if it's free. The place is a dump.

Why are you living in his head?

 

[InternetHero]

I think part of the problem in the downward spiral of the discussion had to do with some likely unintentional (I hope) triggering.

- Thread about the threat of fascist development in America = worthwhile given "The Donald's" blowing occasional kisses towards the alt-right.

- Juxtaposing that threat with the death of Mussolini = makes sense, who would not want to confront and end the nationalist threat?

Who would not want to look at the alternatives and detailed implications of what we build the future on. Shall it be nation and clan unity, shall it be moral principles of the past, shall it be a whole new morality to fit the future, or something that combines them all in a way that is good for the people involved? Everything seems swell...

- Post pictures of Mussolini strung up like a big bloated tuna fish... then end the thread with mentions of the dangers of "his supporters" of Trump/possible facisim highlighted = How could someone not see the visual inference to hanging and warning as something that connects the violence? That that might be the solution? That is what looks like the obvious connection consciously or subconsciously and someone on the right could easily see those jimmies and start a rustlin'.

Even with good intentions I think the optics of this thread sadly killed the message.


-------------------

My commentary on the topic begins...

Here

All that aside I will give my insights, limited or not:

- The Institutions are doing a great job of thwarting Trump's clumsy attempts at overreaching. As well, President Obama had a tendency to go as far as he could, and was largely thwarted too much to his vocal chagrin.

The pen and the phone can not undermine le republique in this short of a time.

The system for all of it's many flaws works.

- Some posters like Dredd and Faulty have shown the alt-right to be something of a menace and threat, but, the numbers of potential brown shirts, or even Brown Shirt sympathizers seems statistically to be a margin of a fraction. Evidenced by their low numbers at rallies, events, and other areas, even where they should have strong numbers based on stereotypes.

This army of the right lacks divisions, and...

- Leadership. Besides Trump there is not really a figuredhead for whatever amalgam of ignorance the darker side of Trumpism is.

Also, I would challenge anyone to say that Donald J. Trump has any idea what Trumpism is. I am sure his answer would reference "America" and "1st" and "Great Again."

That's it... which brings me too...

- Who are the grand intellectuals shaping the paltry, yet vocal legions of the alt-right?

What great thinkers are ready to etch their lecherous god-head onto the shoulders of Mount Rushmore?

The thoughts are as thin, and as transparently dirty as the spring time muck covering Victoria Harbor.

- If any of this was coherent on behalf of the fringe right, even so, American culture has been fairly resilient to fascism, much to America's credit in my opinion. I think the winds are slowly changing their course, but very slowly, and as I feel I might have illuminated, there is no gust to come.

- I would add that the alt-right, while a rather despicable lot by in large, is far less ideologically horrid than what Mussolini or Heil HItlah cooked up in their cauldron of catastrophe.

Hmm, for a war room metaphor, German Nationalism is like a mound of elephant dung ready to teeter over and bury the populace, while American extreme Nationalism is like dog offal that clings to one's shoe.


I could be wrong, but that is my 2 and 1/2 cents. @Trotsky

 

[Trotsky]

Also, very topical for the state of American self-governance

 

[InternetHero]

Also, very topical for the state of American self-governance

If only we had some big macho daddy who talked tough and said things in a simple way that the common people could...

Oh well.

I humbly suggest that intellectuals and politicians start instructing the people with understanding, kindness, but also a sense of what is true and practical, and not just have it be a one way street that leads to the same empty streets of extreme politics.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

What are those ramifications? Is America one of those Western nations?

I think a problem is that some of these groups do not prosper and become an underclass. Hispanics in general are much poorer than whites and asians in the US and the problem doesn't seem to be getting better.
Blacks have been living for centuries in the US and have wealth data similar to a third world country.

In France the North Africans also didn't prosper and became relegated to violent ghettos.
That is despite affirmative action, public housing and wealth redistribution schemes. You can blame reactionary policies but that same pattern exists all over the western world.

That's not some civilization destroying fact but the creation of an underclass is something that I don't believe is beneficial to a country. You can also check how much each race contributes in taxes and takes in return. In the long run immigration may be fiscally beneficial due to highly skilled asians and indians but not due to hispanics.

 

[bobgeese]

I think part of the problem in the downward spiral of the discussion had to do with some likely unintentional (I hope) triggering.

- Thread about the threat of fascist development in America = worthwhile given "The Donald's" blowing occasional kisses towards the alt-right.

- Juxtaposing that threat with the death of Mussolini = makes sense, who would not want to confront and end the nationalist threat?

Who would not want to look at the alternatives and detailed implications of what we build the future on. Shall it be nation and clan unity, shall it be moral principles of the past, shall it be a whole new morality to fit the future, or something that combines them all in a way that is good for the people involved? Everything seems swell...

- Post pictures of Mussolini strung up like a big bloated tuna fish... then end the thread with mentions of the dangers of "his supporters" of Trump/possible facisim highlighted = How could someone not see the visual inference to hanging and warning as something that connects the violence? That that might be the solution? That is what looks like the obvious connection consciously or subconsciously and someone on the right could easily see those jimmies and start a rustlin'.

Even with good intentions I think the optics of this thread sadly killed the message.


-------------------

My commentary on the topic begins...

Here

All that aside I will give my insights, limited or not:

- The Institutions are doing a great job of thwarting Trump's clumsy attempts at overreaching. As well, President Obama had a tendency to go as far as he could, and was largely thwarted too much to his vocal chagrin.

The pen and the phone can not undermine le republique in this short of a time.

The system for all of it's many flaws works.

- Some posters like Dredd and Faulty have shown the alt-right to be something of a menace and threat, but, the numbers of potential brown shirts, or even Brown Shirt sympathizers seems statistically to be a margin of a fraction. Evidenced by their low numbers at rallies, events, and other areas, even where they should have strong numbers based on stereotypes.

This army of the right lacks divisions, and...

- Leadership. Besides Trump there is not really a figuredhead for whatever amalgam of ignorance the darker side of Trumpism is.

Also, I would challenge anyone to say that Donald J. Trump has any idea what Trumpism is. I am sure his answer would reference "America" and "1st" and "Great Again."

That's it... which brings me too...

- Who are the grand intellectuals shaping the paltry, yet vocal legions of the alt-right?

What great thinkers are ready to etch their lecherous god-head onto the shoulders of Mount Rushmore?

The thoughts are as thin, and as transparently dirty as the spring time muck covering Victoria Harbor.

- If any of this was coherent on behalf of the fringe right, even so, American culture has been fairly resilient to fascism, much to America's credit in my opinion. I think the winds are slowly changing their course, but very slowly, and as I feel I might have illuminated, there is no gust to come.

- I would add that the alt-right, while a rather despicable lot by in large, is far less ideologically horrid than what Mussolini or Heil HItlah cooked up in their cauldron of catastrophe.

Hmm, for a war room metaphor, German Nationalism is like a mound of elephant dung ready to teeter over and bury the populace, while American extreme Nationalism is like dog offal that clings to one's shoe.


I could be wrong, but that is my 2 and 1/2 cents. @Trotsky

LOLOLOLOLOLLLLL


Nobody ever heard of the alt-right until Hillary named it as reason 612 she lost the election.

 

[splendica]

Wait you are PMing this crap to him as well as posting it publicly? And you are upset he is being rude to you?

Well you are wrong and Quipling knows it. It was a respectful conversation with several invites with various backgrounds different to my own. I went into both with an inquisitive mind respectfully asking what people thought of the documentary and what if any the flaws were. Quipling responded with zero, while others took the respectful conversation and pointed out flaws and some points they had agreement with. It was eventually closed after a week or so because outside of a couple of contributors it died. Further to this, there was a second conversation started due to lack of response in the aforementioned, and a moderator was included. There was some decent discussion but it went stale after a short while took. The charges weren't levied against me in either conversation as they are being here.

So rather than pointing out flaws and error in a respectful conversation where I admited my own lack of complete knowledge/understsnding on the issues contained in the documentary itself (and wanted further input), Quipling took Google screenshots in what I believe was an attempt to first of all play dumb to everyone in this thread like he was just stumbling upon it in this thread, and second, to make me look like a Nazi and/or racist publicly - which is 100% not the case, and he should know this.

What I see as a problem in the WR room and in broader society is the need to make Nazis and racists and Islamophobes and whatever other caricature of evil out of ordinary people who are just wanting to learn the truth about history. Part of this is examining all sides/perspectives.

I think Ben Shapiro would make a good President. He's ironically been called a Nazi even though he is a Jew. I think Netanyahu is a good Israeli Prime Minister. I believe in a right of Israel to exist sovereignly. So am I an antisemite Nazi for those views?

As already mentioned, the main point I found value in from the documentary is the highlighting of the atrocities of communism.

 

[splendica]

AbiG is not a Jew he is a Muslim that pretends to be Jewish so he can further his goals of destroying the Jews.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya

Check out the meme thread. He posts quite a lot taking shots at Muslims. I'm pretty sure he isn't Muslim and I believe him that he is a Jew who is antizionist.

 

[splendica]

"cough you're a Nazi cough cough"

No, I'm not for the umpteenth time. But if you need further clarification/proof, see my response to Gandhi a couple of posts before this one.

 

[lilelvis]

Why are you living in his head?

Not sure. He's a deeply troubled fellow who seems to place a vast amount of importance on his identity as a sherdogger.

 

[splendica]

And finally, I was dubbed for talking about or bringing up Bolshevism and ties to any race. Sorry for offending anyone. My intent was to highlight the atrocities of communism during and after the Russian Revolution, that was all. I'm not anti-Jew, rather, am a supporter of the Jewish people as already stated many times and with detail.

Blessings on all you fine folk.

 

[Quequeg]

LOLOLOLOLOLLLLL


Nobody ever heard of the alt-right until Hillary named it as reason 612 she lost the election.

Simply delusional, Breitbart referred to itself as the home of the alt right, did Hillary invent Breitbart as well?

 

[bobgeese]

Simply delusional, Breitbart referred to itself as the home of the alt right, did Hillary invent Breitbart as well?

Here, a picture is worth a thousand words.

Don’t you ever get tired of embarrassing yourself?