Official Women's Division Discussion #25

[karatefoo]

It's more about her limited skill set. Rousey, Pena & Vieira all are strong grapplers, she doesn't have other path to victory if she can't overwhelm her opponents in grappling exchange.

She was bit sharper in MT a few years ago. Alliance seemed to switch up her striking completely by making her strike as an orthodox when she was doing it as a southpaw for all of her fights before her move. It's pretty standard for a fighter to adopt habits of the gym they regularly train at, and she'd probably be better off at a gym that has strong grapplers and can teach striking.

 

[Nintendomark]

Yeah, it was good to see Cat get the W after the losing streak and all she's been through. You could clearly see the emotion on her in the post-fight victory. Marion was having success on the feet, but couldn't avoid the takedowns or Cat clinching with her.

 

[executionermma]

Surprised with Carmouche's performance, damn she looked good..
Only highlights how underrated Alexis Davis is, 6-2 in UFC with wins over Carmouche, Dandois, Kaufman, Eye..

Now that she doesn't have to fight a giant tank in Sara McMann, i don't see anyone being able to grapple with her comfortably, looking forward for Davis-Chookagian, wonder how hard will be to Davis get a takedown.

 

[Larisa.]

Well, I'll admit: I did overestimate Maia and not the debut I was expecting, hopefully she'll rebound but nothing can be taken away from how good Liz looked. One of her more "complete" showings in the UFC I'd say, here's hoping she can continue the momentum.

 

[Thirdpres]

Yep. Congrats on Cat getting the much needed win.

Renea did make some decisions that were a bit wonky, like pulling guard when (she) was doing fairly well on her feet. Zingano was busting her leg up though as the fight progressed.

I figured Carmouche would be too much for Maia. Her size, strength, and wrestling grappling making for a bad matchup there.

All three fights were enjoyable.

 

[Rizz]

Well, I'll admit: I did overestimate Maia and not the debut I was expecting, hopefully she'll rebound but nothing can be taken away from how good Liz looked. One of her more "complete" showings in the UFC I'd say, here's hoping she can continue the momentum.

This is the main reason why I hate that some divisions are split between different promotions. We get situations like WSOF Jag and Invicta Maia. Where they look like world beaters until most of the division goes to one promotion and then we find out the truth. I am not saying they are bad fighters. I am just saying they are not as good as we thought when the talent was split.

 

[executionermma]

It's not that Maia isn't a great fighter, but i think @teddy078 was right, the bantamweights veterans like Davis, Carmouche and even Eye are being overlooked, they were competitive while being outsized by giants like Nunes and McMann, Ronda herself was significantly bigger than these competitors.

Now at a weight class that actually matches their "natural" size, we should expect them to have a advantage as far as athleticism and strength goes.
The best TUF newcomers like Eubanks, Roxy and Nicco herself could prove me wrong and beat these vets, but i think that's unlikely to happen anytime soon.

I hope we can get Murphy-Eye and Roxy-Carmouche next.

 

[Kaybee]

Yeah, I'll admit to underestimating the impact that Carmouche, Eye, and Murphy can make in the division because of their pedestrian runs at BW. Was really expecting to see Maia come through with a statement win but it wasn't to be.

Hopefully she bounces back and she doesn't end up having JAG or Honchak-esque run in the UFC.

 

[aerius]

I feel asleep early and ended up missing the Budd fight. It sounds like she dominated. Tell me the truth did Budd dominate because Budd seems to have improved and was just better than another great fighter or was the other girl not really good but has a good record because 145 is terrible.

The last time I saw Budd fight was way back in the day against Nunes and de Randamie, I don't remember much of those fights but my impression is she's improved since then. Don't know anything about Talita except what I've read on her wikipedia page, but she looked lost in the fight and had the usual BJJ practitioner problems. She didn't have a method or anything to her standup, it was pretty much throw some stuff out there and hope something lands. When she got clinched she was clueless on what to do, she didn't know what grips to use to attempt a takedown, made little effort to improve her grips or positioning in the clinch, and pretty much let Budd handle her. Classic BJJ problem of not knowing any wrestling or takedown setups. And when the fight went to the ground she couldn't deal with someone who just kept a strong base and punched her in the face, I'm sure she's good at normal BJJ but it looks like she hasn't really practised MMA BJJ.

As for Budd it was a pretty workmanlike performance, slow start then kept chipping away and building on what worked. That damn bouncy footwork annoyed me though, why do so many MMA fighters think they have to run circles around the cage? I'm not saying stand there and bang, but you don't need to run 10' out of range and then run back in on every exchange, most of the time a single step to the right position is all you need, and 1/2 a step will do the job more often than not.

 

[PurpleStorm]

The last time I saw Budd fight was way back in the day against Nunes and de Randamie, I don't remember much of those fights but my impression is she's improved since then. Don't know anything about Talita except what I've read on her wikipedia page, but she looked lost in the fight and had the usual BJJ practitioner problems. She didn't have a method or anything to her standup, it was pretty much throw some stuff out there and hope something lands. When she got clinched she was clueless on what to do, she didn't know what grips to use to attempt a takedown, made little effort to improve her grips or positioning in the clinch, and pretty much let Budd handle her. Classic BJJ problem of not knowing any wrestling or takedown setups. And when the fight went to the ground she couldn't deal with someone who just kept a strong base and punched her in the face, I'm sure she's good at normal BJJ but it looks like she hasn't really practised MMA BJJ.

As for Budd it was a pretty workmanlike performance, slow start then kept chipping away and building on what worked. That damn bouncy footwork annoyed me though, why do so many MMA fighters think they have to run circles around the cage? I'm not saying stand there and bang, but you don't need to run 10' out of range and then run back in on every exchange, most of the time a single step to the right position is all you need, and 1/2 a step will do the job more often than not.

Yeah, in the first half of round one Talita threw air punches that weren't even feints because the two were so far away from each other. Budd took a while to get in on her then burrowed her head down into the low shoulder / high chest area pinning Talita against the cage. Talita didn't properly defend and/or was outmuscled. When it was on the ground I was surprised at Talita's inability to get out from the bottom position. Julia used her size & strength dominate to the point where we never got to see Talita's bjj skills.

 

[PurpleStorm]

Some thoughts on last night.

Jessica Aguilar got a well deserved first UFC win as she landed more significant strikes. Jodie Esquibel has a habit of going in while striking but not landing. Jessica took advantage of that with excellent counters & a good right hook.

Liz Carmouche looked strong & smart throughout. Paced herself well - won the first round, stole the second in the last minute & dominated top control in the third. Jennifer Maia looked to me about how she looked in Invicta but was up against a tough veteran. I'd like to see Maia fight someone less experienced next time.

Cat Zingano was impressive with her personal best in take downs. Few mistakes from top position. Except for the flash loss to Rousey she's always given good showings. Enjoyed the mutual respect at the end with Marion Reneau, who despite the loss remains a good striker & class act.

 

[Felis]

The best TUF newcomers like Eubanks, Roxy and Nicco herself could prove me wrong and beat these vets, but i think that's unlikely to happen anytime soon.

Are you calling Modafferi a newcomer?!

 

[executionermma]

Are you calling Modafferi a newcomer?!

Well, in this case she is

 

[Felis]

Well, in this case she is

Nah. Even if talking UFC-only she's not really a "newcomer". Admittedly her first UFC stint was very short, but she did fight on a UFC card only a few months after Davis, Eye and Carmouche.
Maybe she could be called a (UFC) re-comer or back-comer or something like that
But calling her a newcomer in the same sentence as Eubanks and Montano is just wrongwrongwrong. She has 12 years of pro MMA experience over them for hell's sake (and still 7 and 4 over Eye, Carmouche and Davis).

 

[executionermma]

Nah. Even if talking UFC-only she's not really a "newcomer". Admittedly her first UFC stint was very short, but she did fight on a UFC card only a few months after Davis, Eye and Carmouche.
Maybe she could be called a (UFC) re-comer or back-comer or something like that
But calling her a newcomer in the same sentence as Eubanks and Montano is just wrongwrongwrong. She has 12 years of pro MMA experience over them for hell's sake (and still 7 and 4 over Eye, Carmouche and Davis).

Yes, she is a WMMA vet, but i was talking about UFC specifically. Her previous TUF experience doesn't really count imo, and these TUF finales are just the last chance to get a real UFC contract, and she totally failed back then.

Therefore, she's a UFC newcomer to me..

 

[aerius]

Liz Carmouche looked strong & smart throughout. Paced herself well - won the first round, stole the second in the last minute & dominated top control in the third. Jennifer Maia looked to me about how she looked in Invicta but was up against a tough veteran. I'd like to see Maia fight someone less experienced next time.

Cat Zingano was impressive with her personal best in take downs. Few mistakes from top position. Except for the flash loss to Rousey she's always given good showings. Enjoyed the mutual respect at the end with Marion Reneau, who despite the loss remains a good striker & class act.

I think the problem for Maia is she's used to being the stronger more physical fighter, and she finally ran into an opponent who is IMO the best athlete in the division. Carmouche has always being seriously strong even up at BW, but now that she's at Fly she also has very good speed to go along with her strength. The way she hit those takedowns on Maia was kinda ridiculous, wasn't the prettiest technique but she was in on those hips fast.

Maia tried to deal with that by clinching Liz on the fence, which surprisingly worked since the words underhook, crossface, and framing off aren't in her vocabulary. Liz just stood there getting clinched with a full body lock while getting stalled out and hit with weak knees, she had no clue what to do to break the clinch or get off the fence. If Maia had a better understanding of the clinch she could've really worked Liz over on the fence. I think Liz is easily top 5 in the division and will be a title contender, she has the athleticism and style to run over most of her competition. Maia will probably settle out somewhere around the top 10.

Reneau vs. Zingano was kinda depressing. I was reminded of how bad Cat's distance striking is, and how much she relies on her clinch work and wrestling. Not much if any improvement from 5 years ago when she was getting out struck in the open by Miesha Tate of all people, still the same confused footwork, running in with poor punches, and having to almost run into her kicks. Clinch work and wrestling is as good as ever though, not as aggressive & damaging as before but a lot more patient & controlled. She's not rushing things and giving up scrambles where she loses position, she showed she can play a patient shut down game if that's what's needed to win a fight. Good to Cat win, good to see some of the techniques we love, but sad to say the game's passed her by.

 

[Eater of Souls]

I think the problem for Maia is she's used to being the stronger more physical fighter, and she finally ran into an opponent who is IMO the best athlete in the division. Carmouche has always being seriously strong even up at BW, but now that she's at Fly she also has very good speed to go along with her strength. The way she hit those takedowns on Maia was kinda ridiculous, wasn't the prettiest technique but she was in on those hips fast.

Maia tried to deal with that by clinching Liz on the fence, which surprisingly worked since the words underhook, crossface, and framing off aren't in her vocabulary. Liz just stood there getting clinched with a full body lock while getting stalled out and hit with weak knees, she had no clue what to do to break the clinch or get off the fence. If Maia had a better understanding of the clinch she could've really worked Liz over on the fence. I think Liz is easily top 5 in the division and will be a title contender, she has the athleticism and style to run over most of her competition. Maia will probably settle out somewhere around the top 10.

The problem for many of the women coming over is that the UFC BW's who dropped down gained a lot of valuable experience fighting larger women. There is a huge difference between rolling with someone in the gym and fighting someone trying to pick up a bonus by kicking your head into the fifth row.

Also Maia needs to either take her diet and S&C program more seriously.

Reneau vs. Zingano was kinda depressing. I was reminded of how bad Cat's distance striking is, and how much she relies on her clinch work and wrestling. Not much if any improvement from 5 years ago when she was getting out struck in the open by Miesha Tate of all people, still the same confused footwork, running in with poor punches, and having to almost run into her kicks. Clinch work and wrestling is as good as ever though, not as aggressive & damaging as before but a lot more patient & controlled. She's not rushing things and giving up scrambles where she loses position, she showed she can play a patient shut down game if that's what's needed to win a fight. Good to Cat win, good to see some of the techniques we love, but sad to say the game's passed her by.

Cat did land a couple of really nice leg kicks, which made me happy. Glad to see her win. I like Marion, but Cat really needed the win.

 

[Daniel4802]

I hope we can get Murphy-Eye and Roxy-Carmouche next.

Roxy and Liz are polar opposites in every way. Liz gets by on her athletic ability and hasn't really improved since her 2010 debut. Meanwhile, Roxy isn't that athletic yet has demonstrated significant improvement in the last two years.

 

[aerius]

The problem for many of the women coming over is that the UFC BW's who dropped down gained a lot of valuable experience fighting larger women. There is a huge difference between rolling with someone in the gym and fighting someone trying to pick up a bonus by kicking your head into the fifth row.

Also Maia needs to either take her diet and S&C program more seriously.

Not just experience, but high level experience. We have 3 fighters who fought for the BW title and almost all the BW's who dropped down have several fights each against top 5 or at worst top 10 ranked opponents up in the UFC's BW division (Chookagian is the only one without big fight experience). That's a lot of battle hardening for the vets dropping down to Flyweight. It's like congratulations, you're an Invicta champ, that's nice, I've already fought 2 UFC champs up at BW.

 

[executionermma]

Roxy and Liz are polar opposites in every way. Liz gets by on her athletic ability and hasn't really improved since her 2010 debut. Meanwhile, Roxy isn't that athletic yet has demonstrated significant improvement in the last two years.

I would agree, and that's a great reason to make that fight, personally i enjoy skill vs. athleticism match ups. Also, rankings wise makes sense too.