Dealing with violent Thugs/Meatheads in BJJ gyms

[esteven]

I'm not saying that it's the instructor's fault, but I am saying that he handled the whole thing pretty poorly.

First, he challenged some stranger off the street to fight him right on the spot (and yes, from the newcomer's perspective, it would absolutely be taken as a challenge). A new guy has no idea whatsoever about positional drilling or the like; how could he? This should be obvious to a professional instructor. Then he did nothing to mitigate the inevitable testosterone rage. Seriously rookie mistakes. It's the kind of thing I'd expect from a blue belt academy owner.

Clearly this kid was unstable, but the whole situation would have been avoided if your instructor had any skill in handling questions and objections from a prospective new student.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

I'm almost 100% sure it was nothing like this. I think he walked in with bad intentions.
The guy came in for a BJJ intro class—where an instructor runs you through the basics in a 1 to 1 type setting.
The first instructor to was ~170lbs and the guy asked for someone bigger.
So they got a bigger instructor and then the whole thing started.

Roger's gym gets loads of visitors everyday—it's a big gym.
The coaches there don't have anything to prove to some random guy on the street.

Yeah there are guys that do that too and come in amped up on their own juice. Him posing the question of what would happen if a guy punched at you was probably a clear indication. I'm going to look deeper into the story, and see what develops. I'd be interested in knowing the guy's history, and if other gyms come out saying he visited them with the same demeanor. Kind of like a Charlie Zelenoff of grappling. lol

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I'll be the one to say it. This may ruffle some feathers but if you read without emotion you may find some truth, and can relate:

Honestly sometimes BJJ gyms can be egotistical as hell, so I wonder what else might have been going on. They also size up new people pretty hard. Gyms vary but the competitive ones I have seen do this.

Also, that fake friendship stuff a lot of them throw at you can be annoying. They always ask with a smile "have you trained before?" Then you tell them no, or just messed around with some guys. They'll try to legit dismantle you (the lower belts) like you're their final affirmation or something that the style works.

Coming in I already had wrestled and dabbled in Judo so I was not an easy go, plus I was in much better shape and AFTER they learned their basic techniques couldn't do me in it's almost like I became one of the boys.

Not everyone gets this. I've seen some rude stuff done to guys who weren't in the clique so to speak.

Personally, if I wanted to show someone that something works I would do it in a private setting just so I wouldn't risk bruising their ego in front of that many people.

I've been handled by the gym owner one on one and we went to a whole different room, only his second in charge brown belt witnessed it. I've also handled people in a setting away from their peers. People don't like to be embarrassed and there are people who will try to make a name off of someone else. Of course, I wasn't there but I'm recalling what I've seen.

Embarras? Why would you be embarrassed after getting getting “handle” n your first roll? Only white belts will puff their chest cause “handle” a new student. That is why new students only roll with higher belts in their first weeks... it’s stupid. Now if you go there and Gracie challenge the instructor he’s in every right to make the guy look like a clown ... he’s not there to learn Bjj, he’s there to prove him self...

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

I'm not saying that it's the instructor's fault, but I am saying that he handled the whole thing pretty poorly.

First, he challenged some stranger off the street to fight him right on the spot (and yes, from the newcomer's perspective, it would absolutely be taken as a challenge). A new guy has no idea whatsoever about positional drilling or the like; how could he? This should be obvious to a professional instructor. Then he did nothing to mitigate the inevitable testosterone rage. Seriously rookie mistakes. It's the kind of thing I'd expect from a blue belt academy owner.

Clearly this kid was unstable, but the whole situation would have been avoided if your instructor had any skill in handling questions and objections from a prospective new student.

Exactly, you got to learn a guy first don't have him go live with you first day in. At least do some drills, see how he does his warm ups, check his demeanor etc.

I can not criticize wholly because I was not there to witness it, but I would think the whole thing was handled a little poorly. If he swung and took him down for an arm bar I don't know what was going through the guy's mind. Flash armbars can hurt, and that whole experience of getting grappled to the ground and submitted can get many people in survival mode. You don't know the psychology of a person trying to survive.

Again, I don't want to offer too much outside criticism, but if my instructor did that I would be watching the kid the rest of the time there to make sure he doesn't sneak back outside and come in with something I can't grapple against. Grappling is one thing, but when people start committing to punches things can escalate quickly. The energy changes. People take embarrassment seriously, clearly. lol Doesn't excuse him, but I think it could have been handled a bit better dealing with a new guy. I know the intent was to make him understand, but perhaps do it in a drill and not live? Idk. Just thoughts.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

Embarras? Why would you be embarrassed after getting getting “handle” n your first roll? Only white belts will puff their chest cause “handle” a new student. That is why new students only roll with higher belts in their first weeks... it’s stupid. Now if you go there and Gracie challenge the instructor he’s in every right to make the guy look like a clown ... he’s not there to learn Bjj, he’s there to prove him self...

For someone new to grappling be manhandled can be a shock, and a big deal.
I was not embarrassed because I came from high school wrestling so drilling and being uncomfortable on the mat was not a huge thing. It comes with it.

"Clown" the new guy? So we stoop to their thuggery? Great way to promote the art. That's like a guy challenging a regional champ boxer to a spar and he knocks the kid's mouthpiece out. Way to go. You proved you're not to be messed with. Did you find out the kid was blowing smoke before or after he had to pick himself up? lol

 

[BJJ_Rage]

For someone new to grappling be manhandled can be a shock, and a big deal.
I was not embarrassed because I came from high school wrestling so drilling and being uncomfortable on the mat was not a huge thing. It comes with it.

Man handled the new guy? So we stoop to their thuggery? Great way to promote the art. That's like a guy challenging a regional champ boxer to a spar and he knocks the kid's mouthpiece out. Way to go. You proved you're not to be messed with. Did you find out the kid was blowing smoke before or after he had to pick himself up? lol

Gracie challenge is a fight, some dude comes to my gym and wants to fight me to prove himself or to prove I suck or my art sucks, that’s a fight, I’m teaching a martial art and can’t stand a civil duel? Fuck that. I that doesn’t mean I will try to hurt the other person either...

Now, no new white belt should roll with other. Whit belts or even fresh blue belts, and it’s an obligation of the instructor to make the new giy know he’s not in a fight, it’s a roll and should have fun just rolling around, cUse he still doesn’t know how to grapple. Many gb schools don’t even allow new guys to roll for 2 months or so, I do, from day one, but only with me or my or my high belts, and we all make sure the new guy is just having fun, we keep it play full if you like.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

Gracie challenge is a fight, some dude comes to my gym and wants to fight me to prove himself or to prove I suck or my art sucks, that’s a fight, I’m teaching a martial art and can’t stand a civil duel? Fuck that. I that doesn’t mean I will try to hurt the other person either...

Now, no new white belt should roll with other. Whit belts or even fresh blue belts, and it’s an obligation of the instructor to make the new giy know he’s not in a fight, it’s a roll and should have fun just rolling around, cUse he still doesn’t know how to grapple. Many gb schools don’t even allow new guys to roll for 2 months or so, I do, from day one, but only with me or my or my high belts, and we all make sure the new guy is just having fun, we keep it play full if you like.

I can respect that. However, the Gracies and BJJ got some notoriety for these challenge fights with the public didn't they? I'm not talking all good attention either. I remember words like "thugs" circulating around.

I don't know where you are or the culture, but I feel you can prove a point without engaging in a fight with some new guy who is pumped on himself. Me saying I would watch the guy after something like that is legit. People shoot when they lose fights, that is a thing in many places. I think inviting that atmosphere in the gym is foolish.

Even if nothing happened then, you don't know a guy means you don't know a guy. You don't know his mindset. BJJ doesn't stop bullets.

I dealt with a situation similar, and all the guys were so confident that our gym full of grapplers would handle this one man. I told guys to stop instigating, because he comes back around with a firearm that gi isn't stopping the worst case scenario.

Perhaps our thoughts are different on conflict de escalation. That is fine.

 

[Nik123]

I'm not saying that it's the instructor's fault, but I am saying that he handled the whole thing pretty poorly.

First, he challenged some stranger off the street to fight him right on the spot (and yes, from the newcomer's perspective, it would absolutely be taken as a challenge). A new guy has no idea whatsoever about positional drilling or the like; how could he? This should be obvious to a professional instructor. Then he did nothing to mitigate the inevitable testosterone rage. Seriously rookie mistakes. It's the kind of thing I'd expect from a blue belt academy owner.

Clearly this kid was unstable, but the whole situation would have been avoided if your instructor had any skill in handling questions and objections from a prospective new student.

I think you have misunderstood what happened. The instructor was just holding an induction class - not challenging anyone. The guy asked for a ‘bigger instructor’ and when said instructor arrived practically tried to sucker punch him (squaring him up to him and asking what he would do if he punched him on the streets before swinging at him full power), then when put in a standard submission rather gently and got released after tapping - started punching the instructor on the back of his head).. Then rushed him as if he was following up on his attack. It was at this point the instructor hit him in self defence. Not sure where or how you got the instructor ‘challenging someone off the street’. Not sure where you train bro, but that doesn’t happen at this academy.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I can respect that. However, the Gracies and BJJ got some notoriety for these challenge fights with the public didn't they? I'm not talking all good attention either. I remember words like "thugs" circulating around.

I don't know where you are or the culture, but I feel you can prove a point without engaging in a fight with some new guy who is pumped on himself. Me saying I would watch the guy after something like that is legit. People shoot when they lose fights, that is a thing in many places. I think inviting that atmosphere in the gym is foolish.

Even if nothing happened then, you don't know a guy means you don't know a guy. You don't know his mindset. BJJ doesn't stop bullets.

I dealt with a situation similar, and all the guys were so confident that our gym full of grapplers would handle this one man. I told guys to stop instigating, because he comes back around with a firearm that gi isn't stopping the worst case scenario.

Perhaps our thoughts are different on conflict de escalation. That is fine.

A guy showing up in a gym Requeisting a duel is probably not going to go pick up a gun and kill everyone, under that assumptiln, what the heck am I even bothering teaching Bjj? If you are not going to ever get in a altarcste with anyone due to fear of getting shot, there’s not point at all, just down your head and let everyone step on your head attitude and you’ll be fine, After all, if you are never going to be able to use it, I might teach chess or whatever. Bjj is a martial art, it is a sport too, but we are teaching people how to fight, not play ballet. Sure there are some wackos in this world, but most probably your not going to find a wacko wanting to shot you for this...

What do you think is going to happen if this wacko walks at any single Mma gym doing the same? Bjj ain’t no different.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

A guy showing up in a gym Requeisting a duel is probably not going to go pick up a gun and kill everyone, under that assumptiln, what the heck am I even bothering teaching Bjj? If you are not going to ever get in a altarcste with anyone due to fear of getting shot, there’s not point at all, just down your head and let everyone step on your head attitude and you’ll be fine, After all, if you are never going to be able to use it, I might teach chess or whatever. Bjj is a martial art, it is a sport too, but we are teaching people how to fight, not play ballet. Sure there are some wackos in this world, but most probably your not going to find a wacko wanting to shot you for this...

What do you think is going to happen if this wacko walks at any single Mma gym doing the same? Bjj ain’t no different.

I don't know why you are teaching BJJ.

I know why I go to BJJ, to learn BJJ. I'm not looking for it to escalate into a fight with ill intent like it did where all these other variables come into place.

Didn't the cops have to show up? Didn't the instructor have to resort to punching the guy? So situations can become about more than just BJJ.

There are wackos in the world, yes, but I'm not expecting to have to deal with them in a gym where I'm trying to train, if the instructor inadvertently invites one of them in the gym I would hope he doesn't antagonize a potentially bad situation.

Street application is as much about mentality, and awareness as it is technique. What I am saying is that you could easily change the variables you are facing. If I am grappling you think I can focus on a guy who sneaks off to the locker room and pulls something out of his gym bag?

Everything seems far fetched or can't happen to you until it happens.

 

[mattemate]

However, the Gracies and BJJ got some notoriety for these challenge fights with the public didn't they? I'm not talking all good attention either. I remember words like "thugs" circulating around.

BJJ used to have a much more thuggish image. Carlson, Renzo with that stupod face on the back of his shorts, Ryan. I'm glad it's chilled out.

People shoot when they lose fights, that is a thing in many places. I think inviting that atmosphere in the gym is foolish.

Actually one of my tenets for how I live my life is "Don't invite chaos into your home." I agree with you. This guy seems nutty. I think it's good to have a conversation with new students before you just let them on the mats so you understand who you're dealing with a bit. Also deescalation is a very valuable skill that many don't possess.

 

[mattemate]

I don't get how he lost his tooth in an induction?

edit: I get it now https://www.instagram.com/big_tone_heavyweight_champion/ honestly it seems like the dude isn't all there, probably got uncomfortable and lashed out in panic.

Wow OK so this guy has zero self awareness.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

BJJ used to have a much more thuggish image. Carlson, Renzo with that stupod face on the back of his shorts, Ryan. I'm glad it's chilled out.



Actually one of my tenets for how I live my life is "Don't invite chaos into your home." I agree with you. This guy seems nutty. I think it's good to have a conversation with new students before you just let them on the mats so you understand who you're dealing with a bit. Also deescalation is a very valuable skill that many don't possess.

Definitely. I agree.

 

[Nik123]

I'm almost 100% sure it was nothing like this. I think he walked in with bad intentions.
The guy came in for a BJJ intro class—where an instructor runs you through the basics in a 1 to 1 type setting.
The first instructor to was ~170lbs and the guy asked for someone bigger.
So they got a bigger instructor and then the whole thing started.

Roger's gym gets loads of visitors everyday—it's a big gym.
The coaches there don't have anything to prove to some random guy on the street.

Exactly. This is pretty much spot on.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I don't know why you are teaching BJJ.

I know why I go to BJJ, to learn BJJ. I'm not looking for it to escalate into a fight with ill intent like it did where all these other variables come into place.

Didn't the cops have to show up? Didn't the instructor have to resort to punching the guy? So situations can become about more than just BJJ.

There are wackos in the world, yes, but I'm not expecting to have to deal with them in a gym where I'm trying to train, if the instructor inadvertently invites one of them in the gym I would hope he doesn't antagonize a potentially bad situation.

Street application is as much about mentality, and awareness as it is technique. What I am saying is that you could easily change the variables you are facing. If I am grappling you think I can focus on a guy who sneaks off to the locker room and pulls something out of his gym bag?

Everything seems far fetched or can't happen to you until it happens.

why am I teaching bjj? for the same reason 99% of people are, and for the reason why 99% of fresh out of the blue white belts join a bjj gym.. first to train people on how to defend them self, second for the sport side.

Street aplication is another thing, but if you cant defend your self in a scrap, let alone fight for your life. And unlike most people like to think, most fights are not "to the death George"... Knowing how to fight, specially froma young age will save you lots of problems, and also, make you go through different stages of life much comfortably, specially while you are a kid.

Dude, if you are worry bout dying because someone could sneak in a bjj room and pull out a gun a shoot everyone, you better off no leaving your house.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

why am I teaching bjj? for the same reason 99% of people are, and for the reason why 99% of fresh out of the blue white belts join a bjj gym.. first to train people on how to defend them self, second for the sport side.

Street aplication is another thing, but if you cant defend your self in a scrap, let alone fight for your life. And unlike most people like to think, most fights are not "to the death George"... Knowing how to fight, specially froma young age will save you lots of problems, and also, make you go through different stages of life much comfortably, specially while you are a kid.

Dude, if you are worry bout dying because someone could sneak in a bjj room and pull out a gun a shoot everyone, you better off no leaving your house.

Or I've had life experiences that you might not have had?

In any case, thanks for the debate/discussion.

 

[yetanother]

People shoot when they lose fights, that is a thing in many places..

London is not the USA and the right to own a gun to engage in public shootings isn't protected over there.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

London is not the USA and the right to own a gun to engage in public shootings isn't protected over there.

I figured it must be a disconnect that was either the result of experiences or geography. People do commit violent crimes over the most seemingly insignificant things, most times it's not their right lol but in any case....

If people want to have challenge matches that get carried away then hey it is their choice to do so, but if I'm their student I would appreciate if they mitigated a little bit better to defuse a potential incident. I would gladly leave if need be, so that sentiment would not be offensive if presented.

That isn't about standing up for one self or bravado that is about picking and choosing battles.

Bottom line is the situation clearly got out of hand. Ignoring the things I mentioned, if nothing else the press is bad. If I'm a gym owner I want to reduce negative opinions held by the public to bring more customers, to bring more training partners, to create revenue. Yeah we as "warriors" can say rah that's what we do rah. But little lady down the street may not want cops having to show up for some ruffian we smacked around during her son's BJJ class.

 

[yetanother]

Bottom line is the situation clearly got out of hand. Ignoring the things I mentioned, if nothing else the press is bad. If I'm a gym owner I want to reduce negative opinions held by the public to bring more customers, to bring more training partners, to create revenue. Yeah we as "warriors" can say rah that's what we do rah. But little lady down the street may not want cops having to show up for some ruffian we smacked around during her son's BJJ class.

Obviously the getting problematic violent situations with mentally ill people isn't good and should be avoided but some regular hoodlum going back with a gun after a challenge is less of a threat.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I figured it must be a disconnect that was either the result of experiences or geography. People do commit violent crimes over the most seemingly insignificant things, most times it's not their right lol but in any case....

If people want to have challenge matches that get carried away then hey it is their choice to do so, but if I'm their student I would appreciate if they mitigated a little bit better to defuse a potential incident. I would gladly leave if need be, so that sentiment would not be offensive if presented.

That isn't about standing up for one self or bravado that is about picking and choosing battles.

Bottom line is the situation clearly got out of hand. Ignoring the things I mentioned, if nothing else the press is bad. If I'm a gym owner I want to reduce negative opinions held by the public to bring more customers, to bring more training partners, to create revenue. Yeah we as "warriors" can say rah that's what we do rah. But little lady down the street may not want cops having to show up for some ruffian we smacked around during her son's BJJ class.

Bad press? What’s more bad press, an instructor chicken out of a gym challenge, or momy getting mad because the instructor actually use the skills he wants his kid to learn? No reason to call the cops either, unless it absolutely be a must, which most of the times in this case, is not.