I'm on TRT

[Almus Monk]

Dr's in the UK under the NHS dont know that much about testosterone or what they know is absolute bullshit.

It is not normal for men to be under 400 when they are in there 20's. The Gap between 300-800 for average males is too much and far to stupid to be categorized. 200 and your hitting way too low levels of testosterone. A person who has 400 will not feeling the same way a guy with 700 or 800 is.

My GP dr said I have facial hair so I shouldnt be worried about low t levels.... My great uncle who died last month, was 91 years old with a full beard.. Does that mean I should have the same levels as him.

I came back with levels of 310. According to this and other sources Male Normal Testosterone Levels - Average Ranges by Age in Men I have the T levels of a 70+ year old man, yet the NHS have that as average because of the huge gap.. which is ridiculous.

Since my hernia operation 3 years ago I was feeling down, depressed, lack of energy, concentration, mood swings, bain fog. Lack of sexual desire and erection. Lost loads of muscle weight and immune system was down.. found it hard to sleep. And worst of all, my injury would keep coming back, the groin strain and pain. (you need testosterone to repair muscle or build muscle and help with recover)

I spoke to my dr and for 3 years all they would do is say carry on with physio and tried forcing me onto anti depressants.
Luckily a friend of mine is a dr and a private one at that, and he said a patient of his had the same symptoms as me. The patient went on trt and that was that

 

[miaou]

...

Sorry to hear about that, mate.

There are way too many incompetent doctors (and health practitioners in general) out there and way too few who are actually good at what they do. I've had to deal with my own share over the years.

That's why I'm not 100% for the "no on-line medical advice" policy. It's impossible to make any sort of reliable diagnosis online, but when a person has been doctors and hasn't found any sort of satisfactory solution to their problem there can be some merit to getting some "unofficial" advice/opinions from others who might have dealt with similar issues or who might have some understanding of them.

 

[DrBdan]

How is the Clomid affecting your estrogen levels? Having chronically low estrogen levels presents another set of problems.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Clomid work by binding to estrogen receptors and causing more estrogen to be produced, not less?

I had no idea Clomid could be used in HRT, interesting.

 

[1standarduser**]

How is the Clomid affecting your estrogen levels? Having chronically low estrogen levels presents another set of problems.

I have so far experienced no side effects, but then again I am taking a far lower dose than most people.

From Clomid (Clomiphine citrate)
"This is accomplished by blocking/minimizing the effects of estrogen in the body. To be more specific Clomid is chemically a synthetic estrogen with both agonist/antagonist properties, and is very similar in structure and action to Nolvadex. In certain target tissues it can block the ability of estrogen to bind with its corresponding receptor."

 

[hardheart]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Clomid work by binding to estrogen receptors and causing more estrogen to be produced, not less?

I had no idea Clomid could be used in HRT, interesting.

Kind of, but males get their estrogen from Testosterone converted by the aromatase enzyme. So, shortage of estrogen and the body will up Test production.

 

[miaou]

900 is not "perfectly normal." It may not be cause for alarm or panic, but its not normal.

I just quoted pubmed's MedLine stating the normal ranges for males are 300-1,200 ng/dl.

Please substantiate your assertion that 900 is not normal.

Still waiting for an answer on this.

 

[flanellograf]

Why are you cheating at life? Cheater.

 

[mtruitt76]

Why are you cheating at life? Cheater.

Joking right?

 

[hardheart]

Still waiting for an answer on this.

You think the upper range of what's considered "normal" by an industry whose best interests are served in making normal look too low, is normal. I can tell you if my level was at 900 I would be fucking superhuman.

 

[rms13]

try going Paleo. Lots of people with low T have had returns to normal levels just by getting on an optimized human diet

 

[1standarduser**]

You think the upper range of what's considered "normal" by an industry whose best interests are served in making normal look too low, is normal. I can tell you if my level was at 900 I would be fucking superhuman.

He takes it further stating that even 1200 is normal.
He's obviously here trolling, let's just get back on topic.

Update - At first when I took a pill I'd feel a little weird, but now that I have been on it for a while, taking it just half a dose 3 days a week, I feel totally normal... but normal like I was 5 years ago, not like I was 5 months ago.
I'm going on vacation in a couple weeks and going to be drinking a lot; report how 5 days of heavy drinking and zero Clomid makes me feel to come soon.

 

[1standarduser**]

try going Paleo. Lots of people with low T have had returns to normal levels just by getting on an optimized human diet

I've tried a diet similar and with all diets have noticed varying levels of success between moderately helpful to disadvantageous.
I eat fairly good year round actually, buy organic, don't drink any sugar, don't smoke cigs, and only binge drink occasionally.

 

[miaou]

You think the upper range of what's considered "normal" by an industry whose best interests are served in making normal look too low, is normal.

So basically, what you're saying is you can't substantiate your assertion that 900 ng/dl is not normal for young men.

I can tell you if my level was at 900 I would be fucking superhuman.

What is your serum T level and when was the last time you tested for it?

 

[miaou]

He takes it further stating that even 1200 is normal.
He's obviously here trolling, let's just get back on topic.

I posted a reliable source (pubmed's medline) stating normal serum T ranges are 300-1,200 ng/dL. That's not a personal assertion I pulled out of my ass, it was me quoting an external reliable source. You are free to declare that my doing so proves I'm "obviously trolling", but what you are really doing is demonstrating you lack the mental capacity to properly engage in intellectual discourse.

When it comes to young males, 900 is in fact bellow the 90th percentile. If you have a reliable source stating 900 is not normal, I would like to see it. If not, you might want to drop the subject.

 

[1standarduser**]

OK, I'll give the troll one more bite.

There's no denying that 1200 would be unusual.
Even if you can find some test (I've never seen one with ranges anywhere close to 1200) showing levels up to this point would not require treatment, this being at the top of the range already proves the point.
Studies show that on average, males of ALL ages are below 900 actually.

WebMD:
"The news got worse at very high testosterone levels (1000 nanograms), where men were even more likely to engage in risky behavior -- and less likely to reap the positive health benefits of testosterone.

The results aren't really surprising, says lead author Alan Booth, PhD -- a professor of sociology and human development -- because testosterone has been associated with risky behavior in many studies. Men with high testosterone levels are more likely to be involved in criminal activity and antisocial behavior, get in trouble in school, remain single, and be unemployed.

But this doesn't mean that all men with high testosterone levels are doomed to a bad fate, he said. "There's lots of high testosterone people out there with good marriages who don't commit crimes."

Taking all the factors together, researchers found that the healthiest men overall had testosterone levels between 400 to 600 nanograms. They seemed to enjoy the most benefits and experience the least risks associated with the hormone."

Still waiting to here back on your previous trolling attempt.
Remember, you claimed that
1) Tests dont give a warning for those over 900 (mine warns for less than this actually).
2) treatment for those with high testosterone wouldn't require something different than those with low. (still not sure how you think injecting testosterone would in fact help those with too high of levels)

You're not yet on my ignore list; I'm giving you another chance to stop being a d*&k

 

[miaou]

OK, I'll give the troll one more bite.

Why are you calling me a troll? This is a serious question.

Is it because I don't agree with your uninformed opinion and you can't find any evidence to back up your assertions?

There's no denying that 1200 would be unusual.

This is a straw man, because I did not argue whether 1,200 would be unusual or not. It is at the very top of the normal reference ranges, which clearly means that there is an extremely small percentage of men with that amount of endogenous T, which obviously makes it "unusual".

What I've been arguing all throughout this thread is that the assertion that 900-950 isn't normal and needs treatment to lower is entirely baseless. I've asked for evidence and none has been provided.

Even if you can find some test (I've never seen one with ranges anywhere close to 1200) showing levels up to this point would not require treatment, this being at the top of the range already proves the point.

If you've never seen that normal reference values for serum T in blood tests commonly go up to 1,200 you clearly haven't been reading this thread, because I already posted evidence to that. If you simply go to wikipedia's normal blood values reference table, you'll get similar info (serum T in ng/dl is with light blue at the very top and left from center). In any case, you are clearly trying to move the goalposts here, because I never argued about whether 1,200 is extreme or not. It is clearly at the very end of the range.

Studies show that on average, males of ALL ages are below 900 actually.

Yes they obviously do, because average test for men bellow 50 is around 600ish (average values can be over 650 for younger men). This does not prove that 900 is not physiologically normal for young men. It is called variation within a physiologically normal range.

WebMD:
"The news got worse at very high testosterone levels (1000 nanograms), where men were even more likely to engage in risky behavior -- and less likely to reap the positive health benefits of testosterone.

The results aren't really surprising, says lead author Alan Booth, PhD -- a professor of sociology and human development -- because testosterone has been associated with risky behavior in many studies. Men with high testosterone levels are more likely to be involved in criminal activity and antisocial behavior, get in trouble in school, remain single, and be unemployed.

But this doesn't mean that all men with high testosterone levels are doomed to a bad fate, he said. "There's lots of high testosterone people out there with good marriages who don't commit crimes."

Taking all the factors together, researchers found that the healthiest men overall had testosterone levels between 400 to 600 nanograms. They seemed to enjoy the most benefits and experience the least risks associated with the hormone."

What this quote says is that men with high T tend to engage in more "risky behavior". You know, like compete in football or MMA, or skydive, or drive a bike, or smoke, or have more sexual partners. That is not a "disease" to be treated, it is behavior based on choice.

That quote comes from this page. It refers to this study: Testosterone and Men's Health - Journal of Behavioral Medicine (1999). This study was designed specifically to examine the possible health risks correlated with high testosterone (so the focus was risks correlated specifically with high T). I am assuming you haven't read the actual study, because its findings go against what you have been claiming all along.

From that study's full text, higher incidence of smoking was by and far the most detrimental correlation for men with high testosterone: "smoking has by far the largest effect, with antisocial behavior and alcohol consumption making a small contribution to the higher coefficient".

That same study briefly mentions that, apart from "risky behavior", men with higher testosterone do enjoy significant health-protective benefits: "fewer colds, lower blood pressure, less chance of having experienced a heart attack, and less likelihood of obesity among those with higher testosterone".

The graph showing the estimated correlation between testosterone levels and overall health, taking account of all the negative health effects of "risky behavior" (including smoking, which was the major detrimental factor for men with high T), is this:

It shows sort of a curvilinear relationship, but it also clearly shows that men with serum T as high as 1,000 (or even higher) tend to be the healthiest overall (even despite the fact that they do tend to engage in more "risky behavior").

Other than this one study, there is a number of studies showing high endogenous T levels are correlated with better health and/or lower overall mortality. Here is a more recent study with free access to its full text for you to study: Endogenous Testosterone and Mortality Due to All Causes, Cardiovascular Disease, and Cancer in Men - Circulation (2007)

Still waiting to here back on your previous trolling attempt.
Remember, you claimed that
1) Tests dont give a warning for those over 900 (mine warns for less than this actually).
2) treatment for those with high testosterone wouldn't require something different than those with low. (still not sure how you think injecting testosterone would in fact help those with too high of levels)

 

[1standarduser**]

Should be noted that so many of your posts are edited.

Anyway, here's the original thing the troll was mad about:
I stated: "Anything over about 900 would also put a warning as high T also has risks, but of course would require a completely different type of therapy to normalize."

Miaou said "I think what you asserted is completely false and ask you to either retract it, or provide some evidence for it."

Again,
A) My test clearly puts a warning for those with test above 900
B) A different type of therapy than I am on would be required to normalize a person with high T. That's just the facts. Go ask your doctor what he'd do if your T levels were several times normal ranges. I am pretty sure he won't recommend clomid or TRT.

You said "Normal physiological ranges go up to 1,200." You can call extremely unusual cases normal if you'd like. I won't argue this.

The reason I am labeling you a troll is because you obviously came here to derail the thread. It's unfortunate because you have the worlds best Avatar. You've done a very good job of ruining the thread and now I'm sure it's lost it's use. Good job! Score 1 for the troll, and take 1 away from the guy trying to let others know my experience.

 

[miaou]

In all sincerity, and despite the fact that you argue like an 8-year-old, this is an interesting thread and thanks for starting it.

I don't think it got derailed, since the discussion was still on testosterone levels, what is and what isn't detrimental to health, and what may merit or not therapy. Some people may have gotten interesting info out of this argument.

Go on with your thread, I will not post here again.

 

[SherTiger1]

Dr's in the UK under the NHS dont know that much about testosterone or what they know is absolute bullshit.

It is not normal for men to be under 400 when they are in there 20's. The Gap between 300-800 for average males is too much and far to stupid to be categorized. 200 and your hitting way too low levels of testosterone. A person who has 400 will not feeling the same way a guy with 700 or 800 is.

My GP dr said I have facial hair so I shouldnt be worried about low t levels.... My great uncle who died last month, was 91 years old with a full beard.. Does that mean I should have the same levels as him.

I came back with levels of 310. According to this and other sources Male Normal Testosterone Levels - Average Ranges by Age in Men I have the T levels of a 70+ year old man, yet the NHS have that as average because of the huge gap.. which is ridiculous.

Since my hernia operation 3 years ago I was feeling down, depressed, lack of energy, concentration, mood swings, bain fog. Lack of sexual desire and erection. Lost loads of muscle weight and immune system was down.. found it hard to sleep. And worst of all, my injury would keep coming back, the groin strain and pain. (you need testosterone to repair muscle or build muscle and help with recover)

I spoke to my dr and for 3 years all they would do is say carry on with physio and tried forcing me onto anti depressants.
Luckily a friend of mine is a dr and a private one at that, and he said a patient of his had the same symptoms as me. The patient went on trt and that was that

NHS and GPs in general just usually suck at anything sport, performance or injury related too.

Out of interest though how easy is it to get a testosterone test or bloodwork done on nhs? (not sure if they are the same test). I'd imagine you need a good reason, as from personal experience they very reluctant to refer people to specialists, physios, have scans etc.

 

[MIDMOBOX]

Miaou is historically far from a troll. His arguments haven't detailed this thread in the least.

Clomid for.trt is an interesting concept although I'm not.sure of the science behind it. There are restart programs to permanently raise the patients own production of t.